Help Me Decide on a "Pro-sumer" DSLR...Santa's coming!

[Twitch22]

Hello everyone!

Okay, I've narrowed down my DSLR search to these two very well regarded, extremely capable cameras. On the Nikon front, I like the metering system, the faster burst mode, HD-movie capability and the sheer number of lenses and accessories made for it. Nikon also has a greater dealer and support network.

As far as the Pentax, it has that HUGE CCD sensor, very well made and robust body with weather-sealing, effective dust control, image stabilization built into the body, on-board wireless flash operation and is anywhere bewteen $200 - $400 cheaper than the Nikon depending on how you buy it, ie. body only vs. kit form. Accessories and lenses, while fewer than the Nikon, seem to be lower priced as well.

I think the quality of both cameras is similar, as are the quality of the glass in their lenses.

Are there any opinions either way concerning these two DSLRs? Have any of you used them? What did you like or dislike?

Thanks for any thoughts or opinions!

Twitch

 

[Flipped Gazelle]

Originally posted by: Twitch22
As far as the Pentax, it has that HUGE CCD sensor...
Twitch

Actually, it's a CMOS sensor and is the same size as the Nikon D90's.

One could make the argument that the Pentax metering is actually a bit better than the Nikon's, as the Pentax is less likely to over-expose. However, once you know your camera, you should be dialing in the proper exposure anyway and this becomes a null point.

If the video interests you, you are not on a fairly tight budget and you want to have access to a whole bunch of lenses, then the Nikon D90 is the way to go.

If you want similar quality, but would like to save $$, and have image stabilization available to you all the time (w/o having to buy specific VR lenses), then the Pentax K20D is the choice. If you are on a tight budget, it's pretty cool to buy a 70-300mm lens for $130 and get image stabilization. It will cost you several times that for Nikon.

Some photography web sites and dealers will tell you that the Nikon is better. This is because they are biased towards Nikon. $$ talks, and they get more from Nikon than Pentax.

You will see that Pentax users rate their cameras more highly than Nikon users rate Nikons. This is because Pentax users have an "us against them" mentality, and say stupid things like, "my friend shoots a Nikon D3 and can't believe how much better the pictures from my K100D are."

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: Twitch22
As far as the Pentax, it has that HUGE CCD sensor

Actually it's CMOS, but the resolution is impressive. It's actual size is no bigger than other APS-C sensors; it's actually just slightly smaller physically than the D90's sensor, and the pixel size is also smaller.

very well made and robust body with weather-sealing, effective dust control, image stabilization built into the body

All excellent reasons to buy it.

on-board wireless flash operation

Nikon has this built into the D90 as well, and I'd argue that Nikon's CLS is leagues ahead of Pentax.

and is anywhere bewteen $200 - $400 cheaper than the Nikon depending on how you buy it, ie. body only vs. kit form.

Not really, at least in the US. The D90 body retails for $999; smart shoppers can get it for $899 or less. The K20D is about $899 body only.

Accessories and lenses, while fewer than the Nikon, seem to be lower priced as well.

Perhaps. The used lens/accessory market for Nikon is a lot bigger, however. I buy nearly all my equipment used at steep discounts.

Are there any opinions either way concerning these two DSLRs?

The difference between 12MP and 14MP will be imperceptible, but I would easily give Nikon the advantage with image quality...especially at high ISO. The D90's sensor was given a few tweaks which makes its high ISO image quality better than that of the D300, which was already noticeably better than the K20D.

Here's DPReview's comparison of the D90/K20D in noise performance. The K20D retains detail better, but the chroma noise makes anything over ISO1600 unusable.

 

[Flipped Gazelle]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Not really, at least in the US. The D90 body retails for $999; smart shoppers can get it for $899 or less. The K20D is about $899 body only.

Huh? The K20D is widely available for around $750 body-only, 800-850 w/kit lens.

Originally posted by: jpeyton
The K20D retains detail better, but the chroma noise makes anything over ISO1600 unusable.

Use noise-reduction software. I'd rather have detail and deal with the noise myself. ISO 3200 is clearly usable, IMO.

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: Flipped Gazelle
Huh? The K20D is widely available for around $750 body-only, 800-850 w/kit lens.

You're right; it looks like the K20D is $750 and the D90 is $860 at reputable online dealers.

Use noise-reduction software. I'd rather have detail and deal with the noise myself. ISO 3200 is clearly usable, IMO.

People have different definitions of "usable". Here's DCResource's studio scene at ISO3200:

K20D

D90

Also, a few other D90 advantages:

3" VGA 920k pixel LCD vs. 2.7" 230k pixel LCD

Live View on the K20D was an afterthought; it's implemented much better on the D90.

 

[996GT2]

One big advantage for the Nikon is the continuous shooting performance...Pentax has never been strong in that department. So if you shoot a lot of action, you might want to look at the D90.

As another choice...why not consider a new Canon EOS 40D? With the 50D just out, prices on 40Ds are plummeting rapidly, and the 40D maintains all of the important features of the 50D. 10 MP, 6.3 FPS, live view, sensor cleaning, great high ISo performance, etc...

And you can pick one up brand new for around $750-850, even less with eBay cashback

 

[Flipped Gazelle]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
People have different definitions of "usable". Here's DCResource's studio scene at ISO3200:

K20D

D90

Also, a few other D90 advantages:

3" VGA 920k pixel LCD vs. 2.7" 230k pixel LCD

Live View on the K20D was an afterthought; it's implemented much better on the D90.

Links aren't working - maybe DCResource doesn't allow deep-linking.

Funny, with DPReview, I prefer the K20's high-ISO samples, but with DCResouce, I prefer the D90's.

According to DCResource, the issue with the K20D's live view is that it doesn't show any info on the screen, and also is not sharp when enlarging the image. On the other hand, he seems to think that the D90's live view is "very slow", so that isn't good, either. Live view doesn't really matter to me, though. Maybe if it were someday really well implemented.

Another advantage for the D90 is that it's rated for 850 shots per battery charge, whereas the K20D is only good for 530. I don't know if the Pentax had IS on and the Nikon had no IS activated, but I'd think the D90 would still have the advantage.

 

[Twitch22]

Hey guys!

Thanks for all the info. I'm going tomorrow to get some hands-on time with both of these cameras...hopefully that will help me make my decision.

I was leaning toward the Pentax. The sample images at DCRP Review on the K20D are so detailed! The first photo with the traditional Chinese gateway has a dimensionality to it that the same photo from the D90 does not have. The resolving power displayed by this camera is simply awesome to me. Plus, there is the value component. Right now, Costco has a special K20D kit (Body, 18-55mm lens & SD card) for $799...that's way less than the D90 body alone!

But after checking out the D90 reviews at this and other sites, I am beginning to realize how superior the imaging chain of the D90 is. The metering, focusing and processing abilities of this camera are praised by all. The movie mode is nice to have; it's not a deal breaker either way for me, but it is nice to know it's there should the need arise. And while it is a good chunk of change, Costco again has a heck of a deal on a D90 kit: Body, 18-105mm AND 70-300mm VR lenses, plus SD card for $1750.

To me, the Nikon seems like it would take much more time and effort to get the best out of it and to truly appreciate all it offers. Most likely, it represents far more camera that I'd ever really need. But, as it's been said before, you never feel sorry for having bought the best, which the D90 pretty much represents at this price point.

The Pentax K20D, OTOH, seems like it's a much more user-friendly camera in that, for all its abilities, it remains more accessible. It seems like its feature-set is devoid of settings, modes, etc. that anyone other than a true professional shooter would need...nothing more that would add to weight, complexity or cost. I also like how every review I've read mentions how nice the control layout is and how instinctively the camera operates.

I must confess, I'm even more in a quandy as to which one to get now. I guess what it really boils down to is deciding how much camera I want.

Twitch

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: Twitch22
Costco again has a heck of a deal on a D90 kit: Body, 18-105mm AND 70-300mm VR lenses, plus SD card for $1750.

Shows up at $1599 for me. Not sure that's an awesome deal; $400 for the 70-300mm VR is market value.

 

[Flipped Gazelle]

Well, to keep things on an apples-to-apples level, add $400 to the Pentax setup for their excellent 55-300mm lens. So now you're up to $1200 for the Pentax system.

BTW, on Amazon you can by the D90 w/2 lenses you mentioned for $1600.

I think with either camera, you should be able to get decent shots right away. IMO, the biggest challenge is learning to compose the shot. I know I sure as heck struggle with that.

At the end of the day, when you look at comparable cameras across brand lines, one brand is usually not going to give you significantly better photo quality than another. With the bodies, it's mainly about features and what "feels better".

EDIT: okay, some more thoughts...

The "nice control layout" and "instinctive" operation to me is mostly BS. We're human beings - we can adapt to things. If you like the D90 more than the K20D, you will get used to the D90's layout & menu system pretty quickly.

Honestly, I just don't get the "how superior the imaging chain of the D90 is" statement.

Re: the video capability of the D90, you say it's not a "deal breaker", but remember, if you want it, the D90 is currently the only place you're gonna get it in this camera class.

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: Twitch22
Right now, Costco has a special K20D kit (Body, 18-55mm lens & SD card) for $799...that's way less than the D90 body alone!

About $60 less.

Resolving power is almost equal.

Nikon's images are slightly softer than Pentax out of camera; they sharpen quite well in post. Remember that resolution charts and 100% crops are more demanding than reality.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Here's DPReview's comparison of the D90/K20D in noise performance. The K20D retains detail better, but the chroma noise makes anything over ISO1600 unusable.

note: dpreview's noise tests leaves on the default in-camera noise reduction. you can see the effect of it in the kink of the D90's graph where the noise is lower at 800 than at 400. the D90 is also capturing less detail than the K20D.

 

[twistedlogic]

My vote for everyday, long-term use would be the D90. The 920,000 pixel 3" screen(vs 2.7" 230,000), movie mode, 4.5 FPS, incredible low-noise high-iso photos push it ahead of the Pentax. But thats just how I shoot, FPS and low-light.

Now if low ISO captured detail and weather sealing were my priorities, hands down I'd go for the Pentax.

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: ElFenix
the D90 is also capturing less detail than the K20D.

But in real-life photographic situations, people prefer a smooth image with slightly less detail to a splotchy mess. I'd argue that you won't be able to see any extra detail in the K20D image unless you're printing 100% crops or poster-sized images.

I shoot high-ISO all the time, so the K20D doesn't even show up on my radar.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: ElFenix
the D90 is also capturing less detail than the K20D.

But in real-life photographic situations, people prefer a smooth image with slightly less detail to a splotchy mess. I'd argue that you won't be able to see any extra detail in the K20D image unless you're printing 100% crops or poster-sized images.

I shoot high-ISO all the time, so the K20D doesn't even show up on my radar.

noise i can fix myself. destroyed detail due to overly aggressive NR that can't be fully turned off i can't.

 

[Flipped Gazelle]

Too bad DPR doesn't actually go into the camera menu systems to adjust image parameters so comparisons are all apples-to-apples. Their "we only test at factory default settings" policy is foolish, IMO. It doesn't give users credit for optimizing the in-camera settings.

 

[GoSharks]

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: ElFenix
the D90 is also capturing less detail than the K20D.

But in real-life photographic situations, people prefer a smooth image with slightly less detail to a splotchy mess. I'd argue that you won't be able to see any extra detail in the K20D image unless you're printing 100% crops or poster-sized images.

If that bothers you, you can run it through a noise reduction program. Extremely easy to "fix," and you have a more detailed image to start with, while ending up with a similar final result.

I don't see how metering really factors into this equation. You're going to want to be using exposure compensation whichever way.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: Flipped Gazelle
Too bad DPR doesn't actually go into the camera menu systems to adjust image parameters so comparisons are all apples-to-apples. Their "we only test at factory default settings" policy is foolish, IMO. It doesn't give users credit for optimizing the in-camera settings.

everything should be resized* up to 50 MP and large crops posted as well

and their noise crop is a baileys label. wtf. it's a big smear to begin with!



*using a geometrically perfect algorithm like lanczos rather than bicubic

 

[Flipped Gazelle]

Originally posted by: ElFenix
and their noise crop is a baileys label. wtf. it's a big smear to begin with!

It's an even bigger smear after you've emptied the bottle! :laugh:

 

[jpeyton]

Lets try this again, this time using another site, but showing the same results. Imaging Resource's studio scene at ISO3200:

D90

K20D

Compare the images by detail and noise performance.

In my opinion, the D90 wins by a landslide. But do your own research if you want; find any site that has reviewed both cameras, and has a standard studio scene to compare the cameras with.

 

[Flipped Gazelle]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Lets try this again, this time using another site, but showing the same results. Imaging Resource's studio scene at ISO3200:

D90

K20D

Compare the images by detail and noise performance.

In my opinion, the D90 wins by a landslide. But do your own research if you want; find any site that has reviewed both cameras, and has a standard studio scene to compare the cameras with.

The K20D clearly exhibits more detailed noise.

 

[jpeyton]

Word. ISO6400:

D90

K20D

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Lets try this again, this time using another site, but showing the same results. Imaging Resource's studio scene at ISO3200:

D90

K20D

Compare the images by detail and noise performance.

In my opinion, the D90 wins by a landslide. But do your own research if you want; find any site that has reviewed both cameras, and has a standard studio scene to compare the cameras with.

the D90 destroyed the detail in the white and red fabrics.

edit: on further review the D90 is overexposed

 

[GoSharks]

The K20D has a faster shutter speed in the 3200 and 6400 shots.

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Lets try this again, this time using another site, but showing the same results. Imaging Resource's studio scene at ISO3200:

D90

K20D

Compare the images by detail and noise performance.

In my opinion, the D90 wins by a landslide. But do your own research if you want; find any site that has reviewed both cameras, and has a standard studio scene to compare the cameras with.

the D90 destroyed the detail in the white and red fabrics.

Yet the D90 maintained more fine detail than the K20D in the proportional scale on the far right. A sensor with poor noise performance can destroy detail as well.