Help me find good games that justify better GPUs

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RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
126
if you look at the rest of his post, his point is that very fine detail is lost at such low resolutions.

I understand that Taltamir. My point is that these "fine" details that are lost are not really "fine" in the first place because they weren't much realistic to begin with.

The position presented by me is that artistic expression that an artist can use in games is far more important that absolute resolution a monitor can output. The artists/graphic designers are limited right now by rasterization methods used by graphics cards, not resolutions.

This is why saying that a 6-year-old game looks better at 2560x1600 than a 2010 game at 1280x1024 makes little sense to me because that 6-year-old game has a fraction of the artistic realism (i.e., dynamic light sources, shader effects, etc.) of the 2010 game, despite the higher resolution/"detail".

Check out this image:


^^ That's rendered in Pov-Ray 3.6 at 2048x1536 pixels.

There is no game that looks as good at 2560x1600 16AA as this ^^^. That extra resolution for PC games is there but it hardly makes any difference right now. Sure the amount of pixels makes the games look "sharper" and "technically better", but it has little effect on realism imo.
 
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taltamir

Lifer
Mar 21, 2004
13,576
6
76
My point is that these "fine" details that are lost are not really "fine" in the first place because they weren't much realistic to begin with.
That was my point too.
 

Chaoticlusts

Member
Jul 25, 2010
162
7
81
That's what I'm doing. But I have this gut feeling Crysis 2 will be a failure as well.

# of reasons for that
1. Crysis original game play wasn't all that great either. Graphics were great.....multiplayer was ok
2. EA is making it
3. 3d crap[ (i'm sorry but I have 0 desire to play ANY game in 3d, especially FPS)
4. EA is making it

I can give you one reason why it has a good chance to surprise people...Richard Morgan is writing it....we're talking about the best most brutal cyberpunk writer around at the moment and he was a gamer before EA approached him to write some games for them...Crysis 2 will quite probably have a very very good plot...which is quite scary (Oh yeah and he understands shooters in general have had terrible plots and characterization...which on it's own is a very encouraging thing)

...On the OP topic...you're graphics card is fine for running anything out atm and for the near future i'd say unless you have a bunch of money to through around and nothing better to spend it on save your cash and get something down the track...I'm running an 8800GTX which should be way slower than yours and running 1920x1200 and i'm only just starting to run into real trouble with games (gonna be upgrading soon)..

*edit* oh can you run Civ5? it's surprisingly taxing looking at benchmarks (and how it runs on my system >_<) that's an awesome PC game
 
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BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
22,709
2,980
126
Not for me. I am a huge proponent of better graphics (i.e., complex shader effects, improved textures, dynamic lighting, physics) not higher resolutions alone. Resolution is really one of the most overrated 'features' of PC gaming. You can always make a better looking game without increasing the resolution. Check out Unreal Engine demo on Iphone 4.
I’m not against better graphics; I’m against regressions in basic rendering quality, specifically with regards to increased shader aliasing that modern games exhibit.

Resolution is one of the cornerstones of fundamental rendering quality, and so is AF and AA. If those aren’t right, all those flashy shader effects look terrible during in-game movement.

A simple example is where 1024x768 runs into situations where something smaller than a pixel is needed, say at X position 512.5. When that happens, you’ll lose detail and/or you’ll get aliasing. But a 2048x1536 resolution will have the right pixel because it’ll map to X position 1025. This is basic signal theory and has nothing to do with native vs non-native resolutions.

The problem is most people are completely oblivious to aliasing, and screenshots are generally useless for showing it (especially the shader variant), because you need to see it in movement. An old game with high levels of AA looks pixel perfect because not a single pixel is out of place during movement.

To take your wine glass example: how good would all that shading look if the edges were as big logo bricks and the lighting looked like a swarm of bees during movement?

Crysis 1 at 1280x1024 0AA looks better to me than Far Cry 1 at 1920x1080 8AA
In that case you’re oblivious to aliasing, especially shader aliasing. That’s the only conclusion I can reach here. This is not unusual though, given the vast majority of the population didn’t notice the filtering transitions on the 5xxx series for example.

In motion, Crysis looks like a sparkling Christmas tree without super-sampling. It’s absolutely hideous, and screenshots are useless for showing the problem.
 

nOOky

Platinum Member
Aug 17, 2004
2,896
1,917
136
I just upgraded from a 4890 to a 6870, mainly out of want and not need. Haven't spent much time with the card as it's been less than a day. However playing a couple hours of CoD-BO multi last night while adjusting the settings, I can say it's definitely a better experience. I game at 1920 x 1200, and when everything is cranked to the max my fps still drops down into the upper 30's in game. It definitely looks much better, and the settings I went with to hold a steady 60 fps look much better than what I had before with the 4890. I could even justify adding a second card for Crossfire, because I like Super-sampling AA etc. maxed out.
 

flopper

Senior member
Dec 16, 2005
739
19
76
1gb ram isnt enough for some games cranking up AA.
Tesselation I guess might be the next step up for eyecandy in games.

I play all low on fps shooters, max fps is needed.
when I play a rts or such game, I enjoy eyecandy but I dont get more unless there is more detail as said earlier in the thread.
 

tyl998

Senior member
Aug 30, 2010
236
0
0
Check out this image:


^^ That's rendered in Pov-Ray 3.6 at 2048x1536 pixels.

There is no game that looks as good at 2560x1600 16AA as this ^^^. That extra resolution for PC games is there but it hardly makes any difference right now. Sure the amount of pixels makes the games look "sharper" and "technically better", but it has little effect on realism imo.
Whoa...that's not an uploaded PHOTO or anything? That's amazing! I couldn't tell the difference! :ninja:
 

Absolution75

Senior member
Dec 3, 2007
983
3
81
I think people miss the point about pixels per inch.

Think of it as a limit as x goes to infinity - as you're resolution goes to infinity, you're going to notice less and less of a difference. That's what I get out of RussianSensation's post. And IMO he's right. On my 20" monitor, if the pixel density was twice as much, I'd probably hardly notice the difference. Not sure about 30" though, depends if the DPI is higher or lower than 1680x1050 on my 20".

Shader aliasing regression seems to be more engine dependent than something that can be summarized as a general problem. Blame the developers for that one - it doesn't really apply to the argument that graphics are primarily influenced by artists rather than hardware.
 

busydude

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2010
8,793
5
76
RS and Taltamir, I think we are all misunderstanding each others posts.. we are all taking about different aspects of the same thing.. just like blind men and an elephant.

What I am saying, is that a game is going to look better at higher resolutions. I am comparing same game, same settings, same FOV but different resolutions.
 

nitromullet

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2004
9,031
36
91
I currently own an ASUS Radeon HD 4870 (1 GB) which never gets to stretch its legs.

That's odd... I brought a 4870 X2 to its knees with World of Warcarft.



Just because you choose to play games with lowered settings doesn't mean good games don't exist that bury your 2 year old hardware.
 

dinkumthinkum

Senior member
Jul 3, 2008
203
0
0
That image is a classic ray tracing example. Realistic ray tracing goes back decades, but also has nothing to do with gaming, so I'm not sure if I get your point. I've heard some talk about "real-time ray-tracing" in recent years, now that would be an interesting step up in realism.
 

Seero

Golden Member
Nov 4, 2009
1,456
0
0
WoW sicks on Multi GPU. It is much better to simply disable extra GPU when playing it.
 

taltamir

Lifer
Mar 21, 2004
13,576
6
76
WoW sicks on Multi GPU. It is much better to simply disable extra GPU when playing it.

I have no idea what you just said... is sicks a good thing? a bad thing? a verb?
are you actually saying that on SLI / xfire you get better performance out of WoW by disabling one of the GPUs and only running it on one gpu?
 

Silenus

Senior member
Mar 11, 2008
358
1
81
WoW sicks on Multi GPU. It is much better to simply disable extra GPU when playing it.

WoW is an oddball in that it is quite CPU dependent and unusually hard on the hard drive. It's a rare game that can actually see gameplay differences with an SSD (constant texture loading while moving around).
 

nitromullet

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2004
9,031
36
91
That GTX 280 isn't doing too well either.

You're right, both cards are working pretty hard. Which was sort of the point of the post to begin with.

That being said, the difference between the two in terms of playability was significant. The 4870 X2 was mostly chugging along in the teens, while the GTX 280 was above 25 and fps for most of the bench. The difference between 15 and 25 fps is massively noticeable.

WoW sicks on Multi GPU. It is much better to simply disable extra GPU when playing it.

The graph was posted in response to a post claiming that there was nothing out that even let a 4870 1GB stretch its legs. I didn't have a graph handy for a single 4870, but I did have one from two years ago for a 4870 X2 that showed it struggling with WoW @ 1920x1200 8xADAA/16xAF.
 

SHAQ

Senior member
Aug 5, 2002
738
0
76
Meh. It depends what your standards are as everyone's is different. If you want 3D/surround/SLI AA then 580 SLI isn't enough for some games. If you are happy with 1680x1050 with no AA then I'm sure you don't need anything better than a 450/4850.
 

Absolution75

Senior member
Dec 3, 2007
983
3
81
Meh. It depends what your standards are as everyone's is different. If you want 3D/surround/SLI AA then 580 SLI isn't enough for some games. If you are happy with 1680x1050 with no AA then I'm sure you don't need anything better than a 450/4850.

Not to mention that the resolution is 1920x1080 with 8xAA enabled.

Not very many people game with those settings/expectations.
 

nitromullet

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2004
9,031
36
91
Meh. It depends what your standards are as everyone's is different. If you want 3D/surround/SLI AA then 580 SLI isn't enough for some games. If you are happy with 1680x1050 with no AA then I'm sure you don't need anything better than a 450/4850.

Well, that is kind of the point. No one is saying that you can't play games with lesser hardware than top of of the line. It all depends on where you draw the line based on your wants, budget, etc. My issue is with the notion of someone assuming "good enough for me" means "good enough for everyone".

Not to mention that the resolution is 1920x1080 with 8xAA enabled.

Not very many people game with those settings/expectations.

...but some people do.
 

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
126
In that case you&#8217;re oblivious to aliasing, especially shader aliasing. That&#8217;s the only conclusion I can reach here. This is not unusual though, given the vast majority of the population didn&#8217;t notice the filtering transitions on the 5xxx series for example.

I am not oblivious mind you. My mind just doesn't work like yours - I look at a game from an artistic/realistic perspective. I place more emphasis on artistic representation of the game, and very little on exact geographical accuracy of "line smoothing". Beyond 4AA, the visual differences have such minor impact on visuals, that they are almost irrelevant to me in motion. Make the game more realistic/visually appealing and then we are talking.

Question: Do you focus your attention on the fact that every single brush stroke is visible in this Van-Gogh painting below? IF this was an actual game, would the fact that these brushe strokes aren't perfect irritate you?



I don't look at the brush strokes at all. My mind sees the setting being presented, the mood created by the artist, and how I feel looking at it. The brush strokes (i.e., pixels) are just a means to an end. To you, it's a deal breaker when you see tiny pixels. So your solution is just to throw more resolution, more AA, more AF at a game.

Your mind focuses these minor details (perhaps because you are used to it) while my mind looks at the overall picture instead and much less so at minute details such as edges of fences or how sharp the tip of the grass is. Anti-Aliasing /AF don't make anything more realistic whatsoever. Sure, these filters can make a crappy fence look sharper or the dirt on the ground appear to be more cleaner. However, 2 dimentional dirt is still 2 dimensional and that crappy fence is still crappy because the amount of polygons used to create the fence don't change at all! Without the artist designing dynamic foilage, all you are doing is applying a bunch of filtering techniques to primitive textures and polygons. That doesn't make the plants or the ground any more real.

Doom 3/ Quake 4/ Call of Duty 2, etc. series all look like horrible, esp. by today's standards of modern games. Esp. the ancient openGL games where all the characters look like they are made out of clay with shiny reflections applied on them, and the walls look like they are made from 100 polygons.

No amount of anti-aliasing or anisotropic filtering can fix low polygon models, static lighting techniques, and lack of any realistic physics in ancient games. This is why I'll pick modern game graphics of Crysis, Metro 2033, Just Cause 2 with 0AA over any old game any day of the week. Do you seriously think old games "look good" just because you threw them on a 30 inch monitor with 16AA? Look how awful the character models are, the primitive lighting, static shadows, etc.

Doom 3


Crysis


Go ahead, increase the resolution of Doom 3 to 2560x1600 and apply 16AA/16AF, the game's textures aren't going to get any better and its character models aren't going to gain 10x the amount of polygons.

There is no excuse why we should stress videocards with high AA/AF. Videocards should be stressed by good graphics, not AA/AF. To me realistic graphics and high AA/AF are 2 completely unrelated concepts.

That image is a classic ray tracing example. Realistic ray tracing goes back decades, but also has nothing to do with gaming, so I'm not sure if I get your point. I've heard some talk about "real-time ray-tracing" in recent years, now that would be an interesting step up in realism.

In the future videocards may be able to do ray-tracing in real time and then rasterization as we know it will be obsolete.

My point is that you can increase graphics quality without increasing the resolution. Yet, BFG is saying that 1920x1080 is a crappy resolution and that as a result of it, the games look crappy. So if a gamer wants to stress his videocard, he should upgrade the resolution. I am saying, the OP has a point in that the games themselves should look better. We shouldn't be forced on increasing resolution to "stress" videocards. There are no excuses why games can't look better despite the low "1920x1080" or even "720P" resolution. I have showed many examples in this thread how resolution currently is not limiting games from being any more realistic. If you apply ray-tracing, you could make a 720P game look many times better than a 2560x1600 rasterized game. Perhaps in 20-30 years, 1920x1080 resolution may become a limiting factor for realism, but right now it's nowhere near that point.

Absolution75 brought a good point. Discussing resolution by itself without considering the viewing distance is not entirely accurate. The iPhone 4 has a low resolution but 3x the pixel pitch of a 30 inch monitor. Thus, (1) having higher resolution doesn't necessarily equate to more detail; (2) no current game can max out 720P area of pixels since alternative techniques to rasterization such as ray-tracing have already shown what is possible within the scope of just 720P.
 
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knoxja

Junior Member
Nov 19, 2010
4
0
0
I was running a single HD4870 for a long time as I mostly played Modern Warfare 2, TF2 and Starcraft 2. That said upgrading to a HD6870 is worthwhile, minimum framerate never drops below 60 and I can slap on some AA. So even playing some good old classic games is always nicer with a beefer card, especially if you want to move to a 580 and fire up some surround vision or 3D. I don't think you need to justify graphics upgrades the same way you would have done 5 years ago.

Looking at new engines like iDTech 5 powering Rage, it seems that current technology is more than capable of running complex software, it just needs to be compiled correctly.

Exhibit A) Rage running locked at 60fps on an Xbox360 vs Black Ops diving as low as 25 fps on the same hardware and looking half as good.

Stalker, Metro 2033 are great examples of massively unoptimized games crawling epic systems, not just because they look great, they are just broken. Rage alpha .001 would have crippled the first demo it ran, then they spend a long long time refining the code to run on the hardware, thats half of the skill building a game engine.

If you cant play it on full quality settings on a PC under 5k at a playable framerate, it doesn't run properly.
 

Matrices

Golden Member
Aug 9, 2003
1,377
0
0
I agree with RussianSensation, to a degree. Yes, I will definitely take Uncharted 2, with its sub 720p res, over most games at high res and 16xCSAA. The post-processing effects in that game are amazing, and the art design is astounding. It's more important to me than clean lines.

That said, it's not an either-or proposition - I think most of us want games with high resolution and anti-aliasing as well as good art design and detail. But that's just not going to happen right now with game development driven by 5-year-old hardware. The best-looking console games never come to the PC, or what we do get doesn't work with AA sometimes, so all we can do with the console ports we get is upres the shit out of them to at least make them look "clean", or go with Eyefinity/Surround or 3D to experience them in a new way.
 
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