Help me understand UAW Unions.

[Ameesh]

They are terrorists!

 

[Mookow]

Originally posted by: JackBurton

Originally posted by: Thera
The "Big 3" suck because they make a car/truck/SUV that I, an American, don't want to purchase. They can try to blame the Unions but in the end the crap models, crap design, crap quality, and crap marketing killed them.

Exactly. The MAIN problem GM has is it still has the Oldsmobile and Buick line! WTF? Why don't they cut those anchors off? Jesus. They can save an ASS load by just getting rid of that crap.

Yeah, it couldnt be the $1500 per vehicle health care costs that GM has. I mean, that would never affect the amount of money to be spent in R&D, quality control, and marketing.

The UAW, unless they agree to some rather heavy pay cuts to bring their members pay/benefits package down to something approaching market value, is going to be crying into their beer when the Big 3 go to bankruptcy court or offshore all their manufacturing jobs.

 

[JackBurton]

Originally posted by: spidey07
Hence why fanboys should be required to post age and vehicles owned instead of spouting marketing propganda.

I have a '77 Chevy Malibu.

 

[Ornery]

Originally posted by: Thera

Originally posted by: Ornery
...crap models, crap design, crap quality, and crap marketing killed them...

That's a hoot. Top selling vehicles in this country for the past 20+ years are full size DOMESTIC trucks, copied from the frame up to the RWD, V8s by guess who? :roll:

Ah, ok. I somehow thought this thread said they were struggling. Nice to know they're doing good business and taking it to the bank. /end thread.

Try reading over from the topic title on. There's a BIG part of their problem. As for crap design, if it's so bad, why is it copied by Honda, Nissan and Toyota? If it's marketed so poorly, why is it the top selling vehicle for decades?

 

Originally posted by: Ornery

Originally posted by: Thera

Originally posted by: Ornery
...crap models, crap design, crap quality, and crap marketing killed them...

That's a hoot. Top selling vehicles in this country for the past 20+ years are full size DOMESTIC trucks, copied from the frame up to the RWD, V8s by guess who? :roll:

Ah, ok. I somehow thought this thread said they were struggling. Nice to know they're doing good business and taking it to the bank. /end thread.

Try reading over from the topic title on. There's a BIG part of their problem. As for crap design, if it's so bad, why is it copied by Honda, Nissan and Toyota? If it's marketed so poorly, why is it the top selling vehicle for decades?

Until recently no one in the market but the big three made a comparable full size truck.
The big three are the only ones that actually offer a true full selection of trucks for consumers.
Also truck buyers typically have strong brand loyalty.

If I was to buy a truck, I would go with a domestic truck for sure.

 

[Ornery]

It's when they started copying FWD econoboxes that they took a shlt. But, I blame fickle consumers for shifting their preference overnight. Naturally, after Detroit drops almost every RWD, full framed automobile offering, those same fickle consumers decide econoboxes aren't very desirable, so they start buying trucks and SUVs instead. Nitwits... :roll:

 

[0roo0roo]

when workers don't trust the management not to screw em and don't see a future for the company they'll take what they can before the ship goes down. whats new.

 

[Squisher]

Besides all the above reasons and assuming you are talking about the unskilled labor jobs, it still won't work.

Most of you would be surprised by the diversity of auto worker's jobs that are done.

Some can be learned before lunch and some require as much as a year before anyone feels comfortable leaving you on your own.

Try firing someone and having to babysit their replacement for a year.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: Squisher
Besides all the above reasons and assuming you are talking about the unskilled labor jobs, it still won't work.

Most of you would be surprised by the diversity of auto worker's jobs that are done.

Some can be learned before lunch and some require as much as a year before anyone feels comfortable leaving you on your own.

Try firing someone and having to babysit their replacement for a year.

True to an extent. There is a tremendous amount of training depending on the position. Assembly is pretty low skill, powertrain and bodyweld are much more dangerous and require more skill.

Depends on what area they are at - paint, bodyweld, assembly, powertrain, plastics

 

Originally posted by: Ornery
It's when they started copying FWD econoboxes that they took a shlt. But, I blame fickle consumers for shifting their preference overnight. Naturally, after Detroit drops almost every RWD, full framed automobile offering, those same fickle consumers decide econoboxes aren't very desirable, so they start buying trucks and SUVs instead. Nitwits... :roll:

The 70s gas crunch didn't help out the full sized car market much going into the 80s. I wouldn't wholly blame the production of FWD cars for their problems. That is what the increasing demand was for. The progression of their downfall coinsides also with the growing retired workforce, increase in health costs, increasing union demands and growing competition.

Trucks have always sold, they are a necessary tool.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: episodic

Originally posted by: DaWhim
because they signed a contract?

I guess I relate everything to 'at will' employment. Why can't you fire anyone you want whenever you want? If I owned a business, and a bunch of people were being lazy and not pulling their weight, I'd fire them. If they became too expensive, I would cut their wages. Why do I have to consult with anyone? If I cut their wage, they can either work or fark off and become someone elses problem. . .

Unions <> at will employment.

With a Union, the employer and employee [via the Union] are in a contracted relationship that supercedes everything else.

Just read up on Unions and you will have a better understanding.

They were great in the beginning, but definitely not needed for anyone that's thinking of the 'greater good' for all.

If you want to make $25+/hr just watching a robot doing your job, or being a 'no-show' or just sitting doing nothing...then Unions are for you.

 

[Ornery]

Originally posted by: SampSon

The 70s gas crunch didn't help out the full sized car market much going into the 80s. I wouldn't wholly blame the production of FWD cars for their problems. That is what the increasing demand was for. The progression of their downfall coinsides also with the growing retired workforce, increase in health costs, increasing union demands and growing competition.

Trucks have always sold, they are a necessary tool.

The gas crunch was the entire reason for consumer's overnight change of preference. They may claim they're being "green" today, but that certainly had nothing to do with it then (probably not today either). I blame the lack of experience at building FWDs for the initial problems, and bad reputation that followed. Having all of Detroit building Japanese like econoboxes, is like the tail wagging the dog. The great American boulevard cruiser was the icon of Detroit, unequaled in price/performance/comfort anywhere else in the world. Overnight reduced to building Pintos... :|

All I can say is, thank God for the demand for trucks and SUVs, or Detroit would have perished long ago.

 

[rahvin]

Originally posted by: Ornery

Originally posted by: SampSon

The 70s gas crunch didn't help out the full sized car market much going into the 80s. I wouldn't wholly blame the production of FWD cars for their problems. That is what the increasing demand was for. The progression of their downfall coinsides also with the growing retired workforce, increase in health costs, increasing union demands and growing competition.

Trucks have always sold, they are a necessary tool.

The gas crunch was the entire reason for consumer's overnight change of preference. They may claim they're being "green" today, but that certainly had nothing to do with it then (probably not today either). I blame the lack of experience at building FWDs for the initial problems, and bad reputation that followed. Having all of Detroit building Japanese like econoboxes, is like the tail wagging the dog. The great American boulevard cruiser was the icon of Detroit, unequaled in price/performance/comfort anywhere else in the world. Overnight reduced to building Pintos... :|

All I can say is, thank God for the demand for trucks and SUVs, or Detroit would have perished long ago.

The current fuel crisis will be the nail in the coffin. SUV demand has already fallen off over 50% and those are the only cars the domestics make money on. Don't expect fuel prices to fall much either. I would expect that the current gas prices will remain for years to come and the foriegn brands are going to eat the domestics for lunch because the big 3 can't build fuel efficient cars that are reliable.

 

[Ornery]

I gave up long ago. Seems like only 20 years ago, I said I'd buy a Japanese car when they built a full size, RWD, V8 cruiser. Not long after, the LS 400 was released... for $40K! Yeah, I'll buy that. :roll: Q45 wasn't much cheaper and repair parts prices were ludicrous. Guess I'll be rebuilding old American iron in the future. Not impossible and well worth the effort!

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: Ornery
I gave up long ago. Seems like only 20 years ago, I said I'd buy a Japanese car when they built a full size, RWD, V8 cruiser. Not long after, the LS 400 was released... for $40K! Yeah, I'll buy that. :roll: Q45 wasn't much cheaper and repair parts prices were ludicrous. Guess I'll be rebuilding old American iron in the future. Not impossible and well worth the effort!

I am not disagreeing with you on old us iron, but most that do this don't have the cash to buy the 'new car' to begin with.

Most japanese vs terrible US cars are a story of someone that can only afford a low 5 figure new car but have bought a few crappy 4 figure US cars.

 

[Ornery]

I'd be happy with just a run of the mill Impala. Sold for about the same relative price as today's Accords, and just as popular for decades.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: Ornery
I'd be happy with just a run of the mill Impala. Sold for about the same relative price as today's Accords, and just as popular for decades.

Ok...you are just not getting it.

Not many have $10k+ to drop on a car.

Most are looking at monthly payments and no problems...hence Accords.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: Ornery
I'd be happy with just a run of the mill Impala. Sold for about the same relative price as today's Accords, and just as popular for decades.

Ok...you are just not getting it.

Not many have $10k+ to drop on a car.

Most are looking at monthly payments and no problems...hence Accords.

Reference my "smart" bud who expounds on how his 150K miles accord is rocking and going strong.

He spends close to 3000 bucks a year in maintenance. He still doesn't get it. He's kinda stupid that way. We laugh at him frequently, constantly even. He is not teh financially smart.


[/quote]

 

[Ornery]

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Ok...you are just not getting it.

Not many have $10k+ to drop on a car.

Most are looking at monthly payments and no problems...hence Accords.

No, you're not getting it. I'm wishing Detroit still built a car like the old Impala. Full frame, RWD, with a V8 or even straight six if you wanted, not to mention 2dr and 4dr versions, all for the equivalent of the same cheap price as today's Accords, Corollas and Altimas. But, you can't blame them for dropping that platform when all the consumers flocked to econoboxes. Trucks and SUVs now fill that niche, which is a sorry alternative.

 

[imthebadguy]

UAW = Useless

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: Ornery
No, you're not getting it. I'm wishing Detroit still built a car like the old Impala. Full frame, RWD, with a V8 or even straight six if you wanted, not to mention 2dr and 4dr versions, all for the equivalent of the same cheap price as today's Accords, Corollas and Altimas. But, you can't blame them for dropping that platform when all the consumers flocked to econoboxes. Trucks and SUVs now fill that niche, which is a sorry alternative.

Full frame is counterproductive to crumbling bodies which is how cars are made today.

Most trucks having higher occupant injurys in accidents due to them not having to follow the car rules.

What is wrong with the GTO and that type of car for the Impala needs?

Most of america is better off behind an FWD car also.

 

[Ornery]

What is wrong with the GTO and that type of car for the Impala needs?

Man, you REALLY don't get it. The Impala was a simple family car from its introduction in 1958. It was the best selling car in the country over the following decade. It could be purchased as an economy 6 cylinder, SS version 8 cylinder, and everything in between including a wagon. It was inexpensive to buy new, cheap and easy to work on, and could be the same today.

A body on frame is FAR more durable and rugged than a unibody, which is why even Toyota, Honda and Nissan use that platform for their trucks. The elbow and legroom in that car, with the deep benches that could seat six belted adults, are sorely missed. The trunk space was phenomenal, and there was plenty of room in the engine bay. If Detroit would offer vehicles of that configuration again, for the same comparably cheap prices and option availability, they'd be back in the black quicker than you can say Magnum!

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: Ornery
What is wrong with the GTO and that type of car for the Impala needs?

Man, you REALLY don't get it. The Impala was a simple family car from its introduction in 1958. It was the best selling car in the country over the following decade. It could be purchased as an economy 6 cylinder, SS version 8 cylinder, and everything in between including a wagon. It was inexpensive to buy new, cheap and easy to work on, and could be the same today.

A body on frame is FAR more durable and rugged than a unibody, which is why even Toyota, Honda and Nissan use that platform for their trucks. The elbow and legroom in that car, with the deep benches that could seat six belted adults, are sorely missed. The trunk space was phenomenal, and there was plenty of room in the engine bay. If Detroit would offer vehicles of that configuration again, for the same comparably cheap prices and option availability, they'd be back in the black quicker than you can say Magnum!

No I do GET IT. You don't understand the culture today though.

People buying NEW cars want luxury...they may actually have a '6x impala in the driveway too.

Rugged = fuxored driver and car. If you have ever been in an accident with a reinforced car you will know this.

However, face it for the same comparably cheap prices and option availability ain't going to happen.

bring more money to the table.

 

[0roo0roo]

ornery is whats wrong with domestic cars today. he will just never get it lol he's stuck in the past.

 

[Ornery]

Originally posted by: alkemyst

No I do GET IT. You don't understand the culture today though.

People buying NEW cars want luxury...they may actually have a '6x impala in the driveway too.

Everything available in a 2008 Corolla, could be offered in a 2008 resurrected/retro, RWD, V8 propelled Impala.



Rugged = fuxored driver and car. If you have ever been in an accident with a reinforced car you will know this.

:roll: WTF are you talking about?



However, face it for the same comparably cheap prices and option availability ain't going to happen.

It's exactly what should happen to give consumers a choice between Japanese econoboxes, overpriced European and good old, fair priced, American cruisers. It would be just the thing to help get more trucks, minivans & SUVs off the road as well!



bring more money to the table.

YOU don't understand the culture today!