Help! People who know muscle cars.

[RSI]

I love 'em too.

Last weekend I fell in love with the '67 Cam (incidentally, this is the first year they produced them, I believe). Not just a regular stock Cam though, it was marked "SS Special Edition". However, upon reading more info online about muscle cars, and the 67 Camaro in particular, I really want a 67 Z-28. Unfortunately, this site says there were only 602 made. This would make it extremely difficult/expensive to get, wouldn't it?

Anybody have any suggestions? I really, really want this car. I'm gonna start saving now. I've seen plenty of 67 convertibles... it doesn't do it for me. I love the shape of the 67 hardtop. It's a beauty. I've seen tons and tons of camaros, some are nice (some aren't), but this one simply blows them all away. It's such a friggin nice car.

Where can I find one for sale at a decent price? Even if it doesn't have/has a sh!tty engine... I can look for a nice 400 or 454 to plop in at a later time. The main concern is the body condition and possibly interior condition. If the engine's crap, that's okay, cause there are tons of engines that can be put in there.

Someone help me out ... where do I start? I saw a site with a bunch of 67's for sale, and many of them were $10-20k USD My friend is buying a 1980 Z-28 for $2k CDN! The engine doesn't have much to say for itself, but the body is in excellent condition. Interior is *OK* but needs some work. But damn, $2k? That's like $1.5k in your dollar! $1.5k for a classic muscle car! Yet the one I want has to be ten times more expensive

.....

 

[Viper GTS]

A 1980 is hardly a classic.

Viper GTS

 

[notfred]

An '80 camaro is no more a classic than a 78 mustang. They were both basically peices of crap, and nothing like the cars fro mthe 60's and early seventies. The old cars are more expensive cause there's much higher demand for them. Ones in nice shape fetch the price of some new cars. You might be beter off buying something that's straight, but not clean, and getting it painted. Cars that are already restored aren't cheap, and aren't gonig toget cheap. There weren't nearly as many of those camaros as there were, say, 65 mustangs.

 

[RSI]

I know, but I don't want a 65 mustang.

The 80 is coming to be considered a classic soon. The 80 is nothing like 81 and newer. 81 and up is when they started adding all kinds of sensors and decreasing power like crazy. There was actually a 4-cylinder camaro.

Anyway, enough about that. I want a 67 dammit

 

[pyonir]

have you considered a 68? close to the same body style.

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

Whenever the big change came is when the classics quit. All that gov regulation stuff Would have been early 70s or so (?).

I wouldn't really want anything later than a 71.

What I really want is a 66 Mustang Coupe.

 

[pyonir]

for the record:

<---wants a 64-66 GTO

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

Looks like 74 was the last year of the muscle car

 

[RSI]

Yeah, the GTO is a sweet car too.

 

[PG]

The 80 is coming to be considered a classic soon. The 80 is nothing like 81 and newer. 81 and up is when they started adding all kinds of sensors and decreasing power like crazy. There was actually a 4-cylinder camaro.

I don't know about that. After 1970 all cars were way down on power and it got worse as time went on. Also the 1980 and 1981 Camaros had the same body style. The body changed for the '82.

 

[jemcam]

As you've already seen, in order for a car to be collectible, it must be rare and desirable. The 1980 was neither. Any trailer park has several of them for sale.

The '67, especially the z/28 is collectible, but rust proofing was not a concern in those days so finding a truly nice one can be done, but at what cost? Replacing the engine can be quite expensive too. I'd think twice about dropping in a 400 (that's a small block btw, just a stroked 350) or a 454. The big block parts are more expensive. If I was building a late 60's or early 70's GM car, I would consider nothing more or less than a 4 bolt main small block. You can get some serious HP's out of that block cheaper than just about any other engine. On top of that, any corner auto parts store will have parts for them. If you don't believe me, call your local guy and ask about carb parts, cam, headers, valve covers, etc. You'll be blown away. Besides, the 350 will give you better economy with the same or better performance if for no other reason than weight.

The '67 has a 302 c.i.d. engine, which was a destroked 327/350/400. I *think* it also had aluminum heads and that beyotch put out around 300 hp stock, maybe more.

Look out for the rust buckets. Check the floors around the seats, especially in the trunk and the wheel houses around the quarter panels. Those can be expensive to fix correctly, not with bondo or anything, welded in new quarters, sail panels and patch panels. Interior pieces are cheap, easy to come by, and is a d.i.y. job. Pull the back seat bottom out and look closely.

Also look at the front and rear rails where they're welded to the floor. These were all major rust spots.

Good luck, and remember, you get what you paid for! I've had several late 50's, early, late, and mid 60's GM cars. The parts are plentiful, but buy the good parts, not the imitation ones. You'll be glad you did and it will pay off come re-sale time.

It's also good to remember that these cars cannot be expected to be driven like you would a new Honda. They are dangerous in foul weather, are cold in the winter and hot in the summer. They're uncomfortable as hell to drive long distances and leak water in the rain. Most of these cars are ones that should be parked in the garage and only driven in nice weather, much like a motorcycle. If you treat them that way, you'll enjoy them. If you expect to drive this car to work everyday and rely on them as daily transportation, you'll come to hate it after a couple of years. Trust me on that one.

 

[Dark4ng3l]

Yeah saying a 1980 "sports" car will be a classic some day is like saying a Pontiac aztek will be a classic in 30 years... These cars dont have anything going for them, the body style is not as nice or as imprssive in size as the mid 60's -early 70's muscle cars and they have 0% performance.....

 

[jemcam]

Originally posted by: PG

The 80 is coming to be considered a classic soon. The 80 is nothing like 81 and newer. 81 and up is when they started adding all kinds of sensors and decreasing power like crazy. There was actually a 4-cylinder camaro.

I don't know about that. After 1970 all cars were way down on power and it got worse as time went on. Also the 1980 and 1981 Camaros had the same body style. The body changed for the '82.

See my above post. Late 70's and early 80's cars are/were not rare, thus not as collectible as the 60's.

67-69 was first generation.
70-82? was 2nd gen.

74 was the year they introduced the catalytic converter, but they still didn't have much as far as electronics. The distributor was still the old points & condensor.

Up to about 72 or so they still put out good hp, but 73 or 74 they introduced those gawd-awful huge aluminum bumpers. I know the 72's and prior had the little chrome nerf bars that are really cool, but they are useless in a collision with anything more than a bicycle and even then they're questionable. Good rechrome bumpers are hard to come by since the EPA has cracked down on the rechrome guys.

 

[RSI]

The 1980 Z28 came with a 350. Yah that's really "0%" in performance. OK there. Like I said, there were major differences between the 80 and 81. I didn't say the body styles were different, they weren't. 81 and newer is when they had all the useless crap and lowered power. 80 was still pretty powerful at 350 (that's what, 5.74L?).

Anyhow yeah I know about the treating it like a motorcycle thing. Not that I've ever had a motorcycle. But it obviously wouldn't be my daily driver. It would firstly be a project car, a fun experience, and ultimately would remain my summer/weekend driver, or showoff car if you will. Maybe if I get one and fix it up real nice I'll take it to some car shows.

I just love that car... it's beatiful.

 

[pyonir]

good words jemcam. My dad currently owns a 1968 SS427 (Impala). He bought it when i was just a kid, and we (mainly he) restored it to show quality. The parts are still easily found (except for the rare body parts that were only on the SS427's) and is only driven on nice days. He has won numerous awards at shows everywhere (Including Super Chevy shows back in the day) but has let the car go a little bit. Little rust spots here and there on the rails and bubbling of the vinyl top near the back windows. The car is still a beauty and will be in my family as long as it is even remotely drivable.

 

[RSI]

http://www.cruez.com/motorcityonline/mcocars/1973_firebird/

Haha... pos!

In any case, almost any powerful engine can be put in ANY cam/fbird, no? I just want to get my favorite style body and stick the appropriate engine in there, then fix up the interior to my liking (I have the feeling this will cost me a sh!tload).

 

[jemcam]

Originally posted by: RSI
http://www.cruez.com/motorcityonline/mcocars/1973_firebird/

Haha... pos!

In any case, almost any powerful engine can be put in ANY cam/fbird, no? I just want to get my favorite style body and stick the appropriate engine in there, then fix up the interior to my liking (I have the feeling this will cost me a sh!tload).

True, but look at the torque that baby puts out stock! The torque is what snaps your head from a stop or low speeds. With a little tuning this thing can be made to scream! This is a big time mullett-mobile, but it is a lot of fun to drive. The numbers don't look that impressive but you could lay a patch of rubber two blocks long. The numbers don't reflect the fun factor of this car.

 

[PG]

Here's a good page for 2nd gen. Camaros: http://www.nastyz28.com/2gcog/2gcog.html

Compression ratios dropped drastically for the 1971 model year for all cars, not just the Camaro. That's what I meant about being down on power.


The 1980 and 1981 Camaro were both available with a 350, but the 1981 did have a bit less power. They were however basically the same engine and those 350's both had the same engine code, LM-1.

 

[jemcam]

I think the 80 and 81 had different carbs. If I remember correctly, (I'm being lazy and going off memory and not looking it up) the 81 had an electronic carb that was a huge pain in the ass. Avoid it like the plague, but you probably won't see many anyway since they've been replaced with aftermarket Edelbrocks anyway. Edelbrocks perform well, are easy to tune and get parts for. I'd take an Edelbrock over a Holley any day.

 

[Chipster]

An 80's Camaro will be considered a classic in the near future if it's not already. If you had one that was in mint shape,you could get some good money for it.

Yes, the stock motor was tuned downed alot but it could easily be modified especially if its the chevy 350. Think about it,for those years,we were lucky the car makers at least released a few sports cars that had at a little bit of power.

I had a 78 Camaro Z28 with a 350/4bbl/4 speed and it flew. Never had a problem burying my speedometer on the highway late at night. Sure it's not a 60's/early 70's muscle car but still looked pretty mean in my opinion.

Anyways,good luck RSI on your quest for a 67. They are out there.

 

[RSI]

Originally posted by: Chipster
An 80's Camaro will be considered a classic in the near future if it's not already. If you had one that was in mint shape,you could get some good money for it.

Yes, the stock motor was tuned downed alot but it could easily be modified especially if its the chevy 350. Think about it,for those years,we were lucky the car makers at least released a few sports cars that had at a little bit of power.

I had a 78 Camaro Z28 with a 350/4bbl/4 speed and it flew. Never had a problem burying my speedometer on the highway late at night. Sure it's not a 60's/early 70's muscle car but still looked pretty mean in my opinion.

Anyways,good luck RSI on your quest for a 67. They are out there.

Thanks. But like I said before, the 80 is still good... it's NOT tuned down. At least the Z28 is not. If I'm not mistaken, there was never once a Camaro released with an engine larger than 350 (you see plenty around, but none were released stock this way). So you can't say a 1980 is a pussy car cause it has a small weak engine. This may be true for the lowest base model, but then again it was always like this. The Z28s seemed to always come with 305s or 350s. It didn't change in 1980. I know that in later years they came out with crappier and crappier Camaros, and I'm not sure about the Z28s of those years, but I know the 80 has a 350... which is very respectable I think? As for it being a classic, this obviously various from one person's opinion to another. But I think the shape is quite nice if in nice condition with nice paint and wheels.

 

[pyonir]

Originally posted by: RSI
If I'm not mistaken, there was never once a Camaro released with an engine larger than 350 (you see plenty around, but none were released stock this way).

in 1969 they released a SS396

 

[RSI]

OK, my bad.

 

[JC]

The '67 has a 302 c.i.d. engine, which was a destroked 327/350/400. I *think* it also had aluminum heads and that beyotch put out around 300 hp stock, maybe more.

jemcam- think of the 302 as a 327 (4-inch bore) with a 283 crank (3-inch stroke). It didn't have aluminum heads. Chevy didn't offer aluminum small-block heads until the C4 Corvette (unless you count the ultra-rare and all-recalled 1960(?) units). It did have 2.02/1.60 valves, solid cam, big Holley, and not much torque. Rating was 290HP/290lbs/ft.

RSI- unfortunately, the '67 Z-28 is pretty much unobtainable, as you know by now Regular '67s can be found in the States for reasonable prices still...but the '68/69 would prolly be better for building, they had staggered rear shocks, many had multi-leaf rear springs too. I'd just build a good 'ol 350 for it....lots more torque than a 302, lots of power too. Don't worry about a 4-bolt block though, even though everyone thinks it's essential (

) 4-bolt main caps don't make more power, just more durable at stratospheric RPM.

BTW, I loved my '67 RS/SS 350 too Even sold my '67 GTO to get it :Q

JC

 

[Sluggo]

81 Z-28 was the last year of the 2nd generation, they were 350's not so much de-tuned from 1980, they were still pretty quick in their day of new cars.

There were not any 4 cyl 81's produced (at least for the US) there was a base V-6.

I think they did produce 4-banger 82 Camaros, although they were not a huge seller.

Looking to improve fuel economy, Chevy mangled the Camaro's engine lineup for 1980 while leaving the rest of the car pretty much alone. A new 115-horsepower 229-cubic-inch V6 (basically a small-block V8 with a pair of cylinders hacked off) ? or, in California, a 110-horsepower 231-cubic-inch V6 replaced the ancient inline six, and a new 267-cubic-inch two-barrel version of the small-block V8 debuted, rated at a laughable 120 horsepower. On the positive side, output of the Z/28's 350 grew to 190 horsepower, except in California where buyers got a 155-horsepower 305-cubic-inch V8 mated to a mandatory three-speed automatic. Caught in a fuel crisis, Camaro sales nose-dived to 152,005 during the 1980 model year.

The antiquated platform of the second-generation Camaro had run its course by the 1981 model year. With a new engine control computer aboard, all engines were now certified for all 50 states, but output on the Z/28's 350 dropped to 175 horsepower. The Rally Sport died (again) and the '81 Camaro lineup consisted of three well-defined models: base sport coupe, Berlinetta and Z/28. Those three model names would survive to see 1982, but not much else.

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