Help undo the Skinny Fat hell I'm in

[thatsright]

Guys-Due to lots of stress in the last couple of months, I have no appetite whatsoever. I have lost about 14 pounds in two months just because I haven't been hungry. Somedays I'd only eat 50-75% of my required call intake and never notice.

I had stopped going to the gym and now back at it before summer starts. So I thought AWESOME I just lost 13lbs without even trying. Thus I'm halfway there. But after taking body measurements last night, I realized I lost so much (if not all) muscle I had built up. Now I'm thinking Its going to be twice as hard and I have to do twice the work ++ to lose fat again?

I am 5'10" 205lb and my Body fat % has got to be at/over 35% now = disgusuting. I want to just loose 1lb of fat per week. Cut, not look like a muscle head. Whats the best way to do this? All weights and no cardio? Half and half? My diet is locked down to the gram and calorie now. What macro breakdown do you suggest? 75% protein now? Because I've eaten so little, I'm sure my metabolism has gone down quite a bit, and thus if I went up to 2200-2400 cals per day, I'd actually start getting fatter again??

Nightmare. Please suggest everyone. Thanks!

 

[Kaido]

How's your energy level, high or low?

Do you like to work out at a gym or at home? Calisthenics are a great option if you're busy (pushups, pullups, etc.). My home gym is basically an open space on the floor with a chair for doing stuff like pushups & bodyweight dips, a doorframe pullup bar, and an elliptical for cardio. Lets me do my workout as soon as I wake up, without having to go anywhere.

Tell us more about your food intake. What do you typically eat & drink in a day?

 

[thatsright]

How's your energy level, high or low?

Do you like to work out at a gym or at home? Calisthenics are a great option if you're busy (pushups, pullups, etc.). My home gym is basically an open space on the floor with a chair for doing stuff like pushups & bodyweight dips, a doorframe pullup bar, and an elliptical for cardio. Lets me do my workout as soon as I wake up, without having to go anywhere.

Tell us more about your food intake. What do you typically eat & drink in a day?

What do you mean energy level? At the gym now, or day to day outside of that? When at gym, I go as hard as I have, but you could always go harder.

I go to a gym when I wake up in the morning. I do the elliptical already when I do cardio. I do it for just 24 minutes once I get my heartbeat up to 160bpm.

I'm going to the gym right now (haha). I'll post my food intake later. But lets say my diet is already spot on to burn fat. Whats the best process at the gym for me? All weights? All cardio? 80% weights, 20% cardio, etc?

 

[Kaido]

What do you mean energy level? At the gym now, or day to day outside of that? When at gym, I go as hard as I have, but you could always go harder.

I go to a gym when I wake up in the morning. I do the elliptical already when I do cardio. I do it for just 24 minutes once I get my heartbeat up to 160bpm.

I'm going to the gym right now (haha). I'll post my food intake later. But lets say my diet is already spot on to burn fat. Whats the best process at the gym for me? All weights? All cardio? 80% weights, 20% cardio, etc?

By energy I mean just in general, are you a low, regular, or high energy person lately? I'm a low-energy person by nature, so I have to babysit myself in terms of diet & how much sleep I get if I want to have any energy for dealing with exercise; my body is very fickle about that - I have no willpower when I'm tired, haha. So basically:

1. You are 5'10" & 205 pounds right now
2. Your bodyfat is 35% & you're feeling skinny-fat
3. You want to lose fat & get cut

For starters, what is your target weight? The average recommend weightloss is around 2 pounds a week, so that's the starter formula for you (current weight - desired weight, divided by = how many weeks away you are from your goal). How cut are we talking here? Do you just want a flat stomach, or do you want a 6-pack? Getting cut is mostly about food (eat clean to lower your bodyfat percentage, whether that means calorie restriction or IIFYM or simply eating whole foods), whereas making your muscles pop is mostly about exercising to pump them up. Gotta do both if you want to shrink down your skin & grow out your muscles, obviously, but the program you follow depends on how you want to look, because then you can make a plan to get there & a second plan to maintain that body.

 

[thatsright]

By energy I mean just in general, are you a low, regular, or high energy person lately? I'm a low-energy person by nature, so I have to babysit myself in terms of diet & how much sleep I get if I want to have any energy for dealing with exercise; my body is very fickle about that - I have no willpower when I'm tired, haha. So basically:

1. You are 5'10" & 205 pounds right now
2. Your bodyfat is 35% & you're feeling skinny-fat
3. You want to lose fat & get cut

For starters, what is your target weight? The average recommend weightloss is around 2 pounds a week, so that's the starter formula for you (current weight - desired weight, divided by = how many weeks away you are from your goal). How cut are we talking here? Do you just want a flat stomach, or do you want a 6-pack? Getting cut is mostly about food (eat clean to lower your bodyfat percentage, whether that means calorie restriction or IIFYM or simply eating whole foods), whereas making your muscles pop is mostly about exercising to pump them up. Gotta do both if you want to shrink down your skin & grow out your muscles, obviously, but the program you follow depends on how you want to look, because then you can make a plan to get there & a second plan to maintain that body.

Target weight is 185. When I hit that, I'll have to consider going down further or (most liekly bulking). But the first time I did this 5 years ago, I lost 60 lbs. When I got down to 195-ish, a few people said dont go any lower as youll look unhealthy. When I get to my goal, at a minimum I want to maintain. My goal is to wear medium size shirts. I actualy have a shirt I bought probably 20 years ago that looks great. A medium size shirt. Once I can fit in it, and look good with it, I've hit my goal.

My energy levels is fine. Actually when I hit the gym at 5:30am, I'm not tired by then as long as I get enough (6hrs minimum). I usually crush it at the gym that early.

Really don't care about trying to get a 6pack. Genetically my family always had flab at the abs and above the belt. I want to get rid of the fat above the waist. That F'n pear shape syndrome. I've always been much further along with legs. Above that I have to work harder.

I just 'graduated' from Planet Fitness to the new local BSC gym. They have everything I need currently. Free weights, boxing, cross-fit like program. That will really help me break through the future plateaus/barriers I am guaranteed to hit for aerobic stuff. PF had none of this.

I'll post tonight my diet. But without that, and my info above, should I do 90% weights and a minimal amount of cardio? 50/50 split?

 

[z1ggy]

I haven't ready the fat loss sticky in a while so I don't remember everything it says... But to give a fast run down of what you need to do:

Figure out your CURRENT calorie needs to MAINTAIN your current body weight. ie at 205lb say it's 3000cal/day, with sedentary lifestyle.

So to lose 1lb/week, WITHOUT doing anything, you'd need to consume only 2500 cal/day. Now, say you do some lifting and cardio 3x per week, which burns say... 500 cal per session. That gives you an "extra" 1500 cal per week of calories out, which means now you could eat an extra 1500/7 (~215) calories per day.

I think people think way too hard about 'what to do' when going for fat loss. You're body doesn't really care. If you're in energy deficit, you will lose weight. The bigger, and more important thing is, how you eat and how you train. If you eat nothing, and you don't train, you go catabolic (burn muscle) and tell your body, "hey body, I'm not training, so.. yeah all that muscle can be consumed". You said, should I do 50/50 cardio, etc? My personal answer to that is, do enough cardio so that you can eat enough to feel satisfied. For some people like me, that personally means very little cardio. My last cut I went from ~191lb-183lb and did no cardio at all. I lost all the weight through eating less while continuing to lift. Now that I've bulked and am a bit heavier, I will do some cardio, but only about 700-1000cal worth a week.

The real key is eating enough protein to be anabolic (produce muscle), lifting heavy weights (IMO lifting heavy, with low volume is best on a cut) and eating to be in an energy deficit.

Lastly, since you estimate yourself to be ~35% fat, I would say it's safe that you can actually lose 1.5lb per week. Additionally, if you truly are 35% fat @ 205lb, your goal of being 185lb is actually still kind of high. At 35% fat at your weight, that puts you as having only ~125lb of non fatty mass, ie muscle, organs bones etc. That's very low. I'm not saying 185lb is a bad goal, but honestly if you did start working out and eating very well, you could potentially lose that 20lb in <2 months.

Before I go any further I think you need to actually measure your body fat %. Go look at my 'Lean Gains..' thread and see my pictures on the last page. That's approximate 17-18% body fat, for you to gauge.

Edit: Oh, and you asked about macros. For me, I eat 1g/lb of body weight in protein, ~.4g/lb body weight in fats, and the rest as carbs. I think this roughly breaks down to almost a 33%/33%/33% split. As I get leaner, I will reduce the carbs by a little bit. Once you are very lean but you can't cut any more calories, just add in more cardio, and reduce carbs even more, but add calories back in via fats or protein.

 

[Zivic]

Now, say you do some lifting and cardio 3x per week, which burns say... 500 cal per session. That gives you an "extra" 1500 cal per week of calories out, which means now you could eat an extra 1500/7 (~215) calories per day.

everyone is different, but I know for me, and likely A LOT of other people there is NOT a 1:1 relationship between adding in cardio and being able to eat the same amount you burn.

the idea of cardio is more along the lines of burning 300-400 calories, which 'may' allow you to eat 100-200 more. I would not go into any sort of thinking that you are going to eat more because you added in cardio. You would likely be better off skipping the cardio in those cases and maintaining a lower caloric intake

if I were the OP, figure out how much you really 'need' to eat. this means tracking and weighing portions along with tracking your weight. start cutting 200-300 calories off your maintenance calories per day and see how it goes. I would stick to weight training with small bits of cardio. Keep intensity high and move quickly from set to set (under a minute). I am not a big believer in cardio helping people; mainly because most people solely rely on it to lose weight. Yeah, they can lose weight doing it, but they are losing the wrong kind of weight.

I am still learning how use cardio properly... for me, I'm finding 12 minute HIIT sessions after weight training is working well. I go through periods of time doing fasted sessions on my treadmill walking at 3.5-4.4 at a 2% incline. I have to really watch this, because it will increase my appetite too much -> I'll want to eat far more than I expended on the mill.

Like I said, everyone is different so you need to pick a starting point and monitor progress from there and make adjustments... in OP's situation, get your food under control and work with the weights at least 3x a week.

 

[z1ggy]

everyone is different, but I know for me, and likely A LOT of other people there is NOT a 1:1 relationship between adding in cardio and being able to eat the same amount you burn.

the idea of cardio is more along the lines of burning 300-400 calories, which 'may' allow you to eat 100-200 more. I would not go into any sort of thinking that you are going to eat more because you added in cardio. You would likely be better off skipping the cardio in those cases and maintaining a lower caloric intake

Yeah I can't say for certain what the relationship is. I'd tend to think it's almost entirely dependent on metabolism at that point. That's why tracking your weight daily, along with tracking food daily, is key. If you up cardio by 700 cals a week, and you upped food by 700, and your weight loss slows.. well.. then you know to tone the food down, or up the cardio.

I agree when you can, eat less and do less cardio. But, for me, I'm a smaller guy and I start by cut around 2200 calories. That really blows as is, and I can't (and don't think it's a great idea) to eat less than 2000 cals a day.

 

[Zivic]

Yeah I can't say for certain what the relationship is. I'd tend to think it's almost entirely dependent on metabolism at that point. That's why tracking your weight daily, along with tracking food daily, is key. If you up cardio by 700 cals a week, and you upped food by 700, and your weight loss slows.. well.. then you know to tone the food down, or up the cardio.

I agree when you can, eat less and do less cardio. But, for me, I'm a smaller guy and I start by cut around 2200 calories. That really blows as is, and I can't (and don't think it's a great idea) to eat less than 2000 cals a day.

at a certain point you are going to be in a place where you realistically can't cut calories any more. That's ideally when you add in the cardio.

in saying that, the VAST MAJORITY of people are NEVER going to get there. The OP is FAR from being near that place. I just see a lot of misconceptions when it comes to how to lose weight/fat. People will do everything, BUT what they need to in order to lose and then bitch about being fat.

 

[z1ggy]

at a certain point you are going to be in a place where you realistically can't cut calories any more. That's ideally when you add in the cardio.

in saying that, the VAST MAJORITY of people are NEVER going to get there. The OP is FAR from being near that place. I just see a lot of misconceptions when it comes to how to lose weight/fat. People will do everything, BUT what they need to in order to lose and then bitch about being fat.

I agree. I wasn't quite to that point myself, but I could feel it coming. For now, I'm personally adding some in just so I can add a little bit more food.

But yeah OP just do some Googling, figure out what your current calorie needs are... Then follow the process I outlined above. If you need clarification, let me know.

 

[thatsright]

I agree. I wasn't quite to that point myself, but I could feel it coming. For now, I'm personally adding some in just so I can add a little bit more food.

But yeah OP just do some Googling, figure out what your current calorie needs are... Then follow the process I outlined above. If you need clarification, let me know.

Well it took a bit of time, but below is todays food log. If my maintain without doing any gym/dieting is 3,000 cals, I went down to 2600 cals per day to loose one lb per week. But the problem is, I'm always starving! I space my meals out about every 2-3hrs. However, the WORST problem is I get up at 1 or 3 in the morning, absollutley crazy hungry. Then its hard to go back to sleep and I get less sleep. This morning I had 6 servings of hood cottage cheese and by 7am, I was hungry again. (Yes, I know thats an insane amount of salt, will cut it back). Im going for a high protein diet. Not too high amount of carbs right now as I'll cut down on them a lot when I plateau out.

Right now I'm lifting hard and actually seeing immediate results in certain areas. I never really pushed myself to fail and now I am. I also never did Amino acid supplements (BCAA) and now I am. So this is good.

But should I drop the cardo? Seems like my metabolisim is going sky high right now and I'm never satiated. Or go up to 3k cals per day? Its only been about 1 week since I"ve been on the strict diet. Maybe I'm actually just building muscle at this point?

Thoughts?

 

[Kaido]

Im going for a high protein diet. Not too high amount of carbs right now as I'll cut down on them a lot when I plateau out.

If you're interested in actual science (not bro-science):

http://bayesianbodybuilding.com/the-myth-of-1glb-optimal-protein-intake-for-bodybuilders/

There hasn’t been any recorded advantage of consuming more than 0.64g/lb.

I would suggest replacing your diet with stuff that will fill you up, or like you said, you're going to wake up starving. Eat a lot of chicken, sweet potatoes, and broccoli, stuff that will take awhile to digest & will sit solidly in your stomach. Your lunch meal is the only one that really looks good to me (chicken & brown rice). If you browse through the articles interview people with muscles on Bodybuilding.com about what they eat, it's largely chicken, tuna, broccoli, brown rice, sweet potatoes, etc. Throw in some fish, turkey, and lean beef (ground beef & steak), along with a variety of vegetables, and you have a pretty good variety of stuff to eat.

The hard part is that it's difficult to cook all of that. I mean, realistically, that's a ton of stuff to cook up all the time. I have a ton of appliances & love cooking and STILL don't do it consistently, lol. But if you can figure out how to solve that one trick in your life - either get yourself to cook, or get a girlfriend who can, or buy relatlively clean stuff pre-made (usually $$$) - then you'll be able to nail the diet game. It's really, really hard to do consistently; it's easier to just have easy stuff like shakes & yogurts, but you'll run into the problems that you mentioned you're experiencing right now. It's not rocket science, but it's hard to accept that food prep is an absolutely required part & is actually really difficult to do IRL.

Just my 2 cents, having lost about 60 pounds myself by eating a bunch of lean meats & veggies. Also, you can make healthy food taste good with a little effort. I didn't know that when I started; I thought eating healthy meant eating bland. That is not the case if you are willing to learn a few recipes. I've got plenty if you need ideas!

 

[thatsright]

Thanks Kaldo! But could others also chime in on the above. Basically, should I go up on cals (I'm always starving) or eat more filling foods? I'm trying to loose fat. But honestly, I have really, really seen huge muscle development like I never did before. Thus, I'm gaining more mass = my metabolism is taking off. I want to be less 'fat' and I suppose this is a good way to get there

Thoughts?

 

[Kaido]

Thanks Kaldo! But could others also chime in on the above. Basically, should I go up on cals (I'm always starving) or eat more filling foods? I'm trying to loose fat. But honestly, I have really, really seen huge muscle development like I never did before. Thus, I'm gaining more mass = my metabolism is taking off. I want to be less 'fat' and I suppose this is a good way to get there

Thoughts?

I lost 50+ pounds eating the more filling food, and didn't feel like starving all the time. Just my personal experience fwiw.

 

[z1ggy]

Thanks Kaldo! But could others also chime in on the above. Basically, should I go up on cals (I'm always starving) or eat more filling foods? I'm trying to loose fat. But honestly, I have really, really seen huge muscle development like I never did before. Thus, I'm gaining more mass = my metabolism is taking off. I want to be less 'fat' and I suppose this is a good way to get there

Thoughts?

If 3000 cal is your "resting" cal needs, ie if you do nothing, just your daily life... Then to lose 1lb per week with out doing anything else, then you'd shoot for closer to 2500 a day. However, since you'll be exercising, that number can increase a bit.

I took my "resting" cal amount per day, and multiplied by 7. Then I added in 700 cals to that for cardio per week, 300 (conservative estimate) for lifting per week, and 200 for sports per week. Then I divided that new number by 7, and got my "estimated calorie intake per day, while being active" amount. For me, that's roughly 2050-2100cals per day. I record my weight each day to form a running average. If after a while I notice I'm loosing too much/ too little... I adjust as needed.

Yes, you will feel hungry, this is natural. You have to fight through it, you're body is used to over eating on a consistent basis. As Kaido says, have more filling foods that aren't all processed and shitty. Sweet potato and brown rice are by far the most filling foods for me. I can barely choke down 1 cup of the rice on it's own, let alone with another food like chicken.

Also, I agree with not going too insane on the protein. I weight about 190 right now. I'm eating about 180g of protein per day, and I find this to be adequate. It's enough to keep me in positive nitrogen balance, and let's me have more carbs which is essential to recovery, and maintaining strength. My carbs are around 120-150, depending on the day, and my fats are around 70-85, again, depending on the day. The reason it varies is because while I will maintain the same calories, I'll substitute in foods here or there for variety. One day Ill have a chicken and rice meal with a salad (higher carb, lower fat) or another day I'll have a salmon meal with broccoli (lower carb, higher fat).

 

[Zivic]

it's only been a week, give it some time. of course setting a limit on your food is going to be challenging at first. it's as much a mental thing as it is a physical thing.

You need to realize the 3000 is just a guess and that you need to figure out if it that is correct for you... or + or -. You need to hold to the 2600 for at least 2 weeks and see what happens. You need to remember that you want to average 2600 over a 5-7 day period, so if you have your days where you need to eat more, go ahead; just average it out over the next 3 days or so. We want to look long term, but approach it day by day

 

[Kaido]

Sweet potato and brown rice are by far the most filling foods for me. I can barely choke down 1 cup of the rice on it's own, let alone with another food like chicken.

Seriously! I didn't count calories at all when I first got into H&F and did my initial weightloss, all I did was eat "clean", which by my definition at the time was lean meats, veggies, whole grains, fruits, and water (i.e. lots of chicken & sweet potatoes). You can only eat so much chicken & rice at a time, which is why I think it works

 

[z1ggy]

Seriously! I didn't count calories at all when I first got into H&F and did my initial weightloss, all I did was eat "clean", which by my definition at the time was lean meats, veggies, whole grains, fruits, and water (i.e. lots of chicken & sweet potatoes). You can only eat so much chicken & rice at a time, which is why I think it works

Yeah brown rice is crazy filling for me personally. I used to do about 10oz chicken and just 1/2 cup of brown rice, and it was a struggle finishing all of that meal at once. Now I toss in 1/2 cup of jasmine rice flavored with curry and tomatoes into 10oz of lean turkey. I have a chicken salad tossed with 1 tbsp. of oil and 1/2 cup vinegar for dinner.

 

[Kaido]

Yeah brown rice is crazy filling for me personally. I used to do about 10oz chicken and just 1/2 cup of brown rice, and it was a struggle finishing all of that meal at once. Now I toss in 1/2 cup of jasmine rice flavored with curry and tomatoes into 10oz of lean turkey. I have a chicken salad tossed with 1 tbsp. of oil and 1/2 cup vinegar for dinner.

Yeah, that's the key, making it taste good, both so that you don't get sick of it & so that it goes down easier. I've been working with spices & homemade sauces a lot lately & it's amazing what you can do to go more or less preservative-free. Food allergies is my motivation, but it's also great for eating clean :thumbsup:

 

[Davidpaul007]

I'm a little late to the party, but figured I'd chime in.

First, I disagree with most others on cardio - I don't recommend it under most cases for most clients I have coached.* Cardio does burn calories but you can quickly find yourself OVER estimating the caloric burn and eating back more than you used.* Cardio also tends to increase appetite in most folks (maybe not immediately afterwards, but overall) - so while it can help burn energy when calories are tightly controlled it can make the whole process overall more difficult.* Cardio is like a double edged sword - when used properly it can help, but unless you know what you're doing IMO it's best to just leave it out.

Second, my experience is that nearly everyone will benefit more from basic compound lifts 3 days a week vs. any other form of exercise - whether you're dieting or adding muscle.* By this I mean squats, deadlifts, pressing movements should be your focus unless you don't have access to free weights or injury prevents you from performing them safely.* Leave the 5/6 day splits to advanced trainers and those utilized PEDs that can benefit and recover from the increased volume.* Most of us will do as good or (most likely) better with 3 sessions a week.

For the hunger issues, I think it's due to two things a) cardio and b) small meals.* Personally I'm a proponent of IF (intermittent fasting), especially men.* I've always said this is my best tool for getting stupid lean w/ minimal pain.* 2-3 larger meals is much easier for me than 5-6 smaller meals spaced through the day - when I eat like that my appetite is out of control.* This isn't a magic bullet for every person under every circumstance, but it's worth trying.* Another thing to do if you're not already is drink copious amounts of water.* Lastly, as others have said look at the type of foods you eat - some foods trigger hunger more than others.* Calorie dense foods are not your friend on a diet - you want to eat a large volume of food with minimal calories.

Understanding your macro needs is important.* I would go with 1gr/lb of bodyweight for protein.* Protein needs vary whether you are in a deficit or a surplus - you need more protein when in a deficit and less when in a surplus.* I have read the link Kaido shared about there not being a benefit (even while cutting) to more than 0.82 g/lb, however, I like to use the simplification of 1gr/lb because more protein will not hurt and there are other benefits to consider, such as satiety and even the TEF (thermal effect of food).* I want to say there has been a meta-analysis of all the studies looking at protein intake while in a caloric deficit posted in the AARR (alan aragon research review) but I can't remember the details off-hand.

As already suggested above, setting fat at 0.4g/lb is a good place to start, so for you that is 82g.* Because you are obese, this figure is slightly inflated.* I would go with a range of 50-75g daily and call it good. If you start having issues with your little man than maybe consider upping it a little.

The rest of your calories are carbohydrates.* I didn't see where you stated your daily activity level but since you're on this site I'm going to assume you have an office job and are relatively sedentary.* Based on some assumptions that would set your TDEE around 2700/day and starting your intake at 2200/day would not be a bad idea.* I realize you're currently at 2500 and feeling hungry, but making the changes I gave above will go a long way in alleviating those issues.

 

[Kaido]

I have read the link Kaido shared about there not being a benefit (even while cutting) to more than 0.82 g/lb, however, I like to use the simplification of 1gr/lb because more protein will not hurt

Yup, it is easy to count 1gb/lb, and there is evidence that shows the opposite of bro-science is true, i.e. more protein (but not crazy excess) won't kill you:

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/protein-kidneys/

 

[Zivic]

Yup, it is easy to count 1gb/lb, and there is evidence that shows the opposite of bro-science is true, i.e. more protein (but not crazy excess) won't kill you:

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/protein-kidneys/

'bro' science keeps coming up... in my experience, those follow bro science seem to have better physique and strength than those that preach what scientific studies say..... this is just an anecdotal correlation and definitely doesn't mean bro > science. It does speak to the fact that what you actually do matters more than what you 'think' you know. Don't get caught up in the details. You will lose sight of the big picture and get no where. Focus on the things that make the biggest changes -> diet... then work your way down to the things that matter less... stress -> training -> sleep -> cardio -> supplements -> scientific studies on whether you should be eating .86gram or 1gram of protein per body weight.

 

[Davidpaul007]

I wonder if its because those who follow evidence based diet/training philosophy tend to be those with lackluster genetics and thus always have to work harder than others for a good physique? Regardless, having a great physique is rare anyway because of the discipline, persistance and patience it takes.

 

[HitAnyKey]

OP: You sound like someone with a decent frame who can probably handle 200lbs. I am of the belief that you need to be very active. Heavy weights is what you need to get back the muscle, no way around that. Don't starve your muscles or you will regret it.

Try to find a sport like Squash or pickup games of Soccer / Basketball for the cardio. Of course you need to eat right but don't get too preoccupied by it if you get real active.

Good luck.

 

[Zivic]

I wonder if its because those who follow evidence based diet/training philosophy tend to be those with lackluster genetics and thus always have to work harder than others for a good physique? Regardless, having a great physique is rare anyway because of the discipline, persistance and patience it takes.

I would argue because they are looking for the 'easiest' (most efficient) way of doing things. They don't work hard nor do they figure out how their body responds and adapt.

I laugh a little at your "have to worker harder than others" comment.... they may have lesser genetic and they may have to. the reason I laugh is they rarely ever do