HELP! What is killing my blackberry plant seedlings?!?!?

[turtile]

Water only drains out the bottom if they are excessively watered, or in some cases left to dry out too much and the soil pulls away from the sides of the container so the water runs down the sides instead, so to remedy this you pack a new ring of soil around the container. If the excessive water is due to rain, it may be unavoidable without great effort (if more than a tiny # of plants) but is no greater penalty with a larger container.

Again, draining water is industry standard. Water must be washed out of the pot. Otherwise, salt build-up from fertilizer will become a problem. If there is a gap between the pot and the media, the media needs to be replaced.

These two statements seem contradictory. On the one hand you're stating container plaints should always be watered to container capacity, which by the way is not true at all. You only want to put back what the plant and evaporation takes out. Dry spots are minimally different in moisture level in good soil as the soil wicks the moisture and further, the plant has grown its roots where moisture is present. I water when the plants look like they need it, and only enough for them to go a few days, then 3, then 2, until it gets hotter and they get larger, then only enough for them to go one day before watered again.

Can you provide any research that shows that container capacity is the wrong way to water plants? My university textbook along with every production greenhouse I've worked in uses this method. Automated systems use this method...

If water drains out of the bottom, that is container capacity too. It's simple to feel the weight of the pots to see if the media is uniformly watered.

The contradiction is after stating to water to container capacity, then you are decreasing the oxygen penetration and promoting fungal growth, and then also gnats. Very few types of plants thrive with this excess soil moisture.

The right media will dry out and open up air in the pore space before disease is a problem. That's why smaller pots are used when plants are prone to these problems at seedling size. Seedlings are the most vulnerable to rot diseases.

Holds less water is the same thing as increasing drainage because that is the result, less water retention for situations where overwatering cannot be avoided such as excessive spring rain, or during the learning process of how much (and how little) water they need for a given size, pot size, and climate.

Gravel does increase drainage, because it creates gaps that do not wick nearly as much back upwards in the pot, as soil does, allows the water to drain instead of pooling in the bottom as much, which is the opposite of pushing water table closer to the stem. It simply is not as you are describing, and does not require enough gravel to displace a significant % of soil.

This is not have the physics of the media work. If gravel is placed at the bottom, only the gravel will drain faster - but the roots don't grow in the gravel. Due to capillary action, the layer of media that hits the top of the gravel will form the perched water table higher in the pot. Take a sponge and stick it on gravel in a pot.

Does Gravel in Pots and Containers Increase Drainage?

Don't add stones or gravel in the bottom of potted plants. They don't increase drainage and may make it harder for plants to grow.

www.gardenmyths.com

 

[mindless1]

^ Sadly you have just memorized bad info and it would take more education than I am willing to provide in a forum topic, so I will just try to give you the condensed version.

Plants evolved to thrive in their native environment including ground soil planting. The goal is to replicate that environment, not to pretend it is so much different than planting in the ground.

This includes a low soil water saturation level, unless growing something that needs a lot like rice.

You have linked to a site giving at best a kindergartener type false analysis of the situation, while I have not only a lot better results but probably 4X the growing experience. Even so, the linked site disputes your ideal to water to container capacity.

That is so absolutely wrong that I can't even imagine how poor your grow results are. You should give the plants the lowest soil moisture that lets them thrive, not fluctuating between as much as the container will hold and then too dry.

If water drains out the bottom, you are either overwatering or have poor soil that does not hold the minimal amount needed till the next watering, or of course then too small a container.

In short, everything you are suggesting is horribly wrong. Plus there is no "perched water table higher", you are making up nonsense and if doing all you suggest, wasting a crazy amount of effort to achieve inferior results instead of just attempting to replicate what the plants evolved to thrive in.

Sadly I suspect that you can't accept the truth from someone with more experience and great results, so I will just leave it to each person to decide, to try it themselves instead of the madness of extra wasted effort for inferior results.

It's real simple, do not decrease container size, increase it because plants evolved with infinite soil available. Do not water and water as much as it will hold, that's what started the problem in the first place, "probably". Water the least amount needed, especially in this case where there is a lot of woody particles that need aerobic bacterial action to break them down into soil.

 

[bbhaag]

@mindless1
What exactly does your growing experience entail? Are you a home gardener who has done it for 20+ years or do you practice Horticulture professionally?

 

[mindless1]

^ I did work for a county parks dept. including horticulture, but that was trees and flowers. Have been home gardening crops for 40+ years.

I should add that I prefer to put plants in the ground, but not everyone, myself included, has the space to do that for everything. I've already written more than I intended to, so will just leave the topic and let people make their own choices.

Run your own experiments, two plants, one in a large pot that is not overwatered, and another in a smaller pot, overwatered, and transplated a few times. There are still a few things that could go wrong but, reduction of variables is a good thing.

I have already done that.

 

[Gardener]

Again, draining water is industry standard. Water must be washed out of the pot. Otherwise, salt build-up from fertilizer will become a problem. If there is a gap between the pot and the media, the media needs to be replaced.



Can you provide any research that shows that container capacity is the wrong way to water plants? My university textbook along with every production greenhouse I've worked in uses this method. Automated systems use this method...

If water drains out of the bottom, that is container capacity too. It's simple to feel the weight of the pots to see if the media is uniformly watered.



The right media will dry out and open up air in the pore space before disease is a problem. That's why smaller pots are used when plants are prone to these problems at seedling size. Seedlings are the most vulnerable to rot diseases.



This is not how the physics of the media work. If gravel is placed at the bottom, only the gravel will drain faster - but the roots don't grow in the gravel. Due to capillary action, the layer of media that hits the top of the gravel will form the perched water table higher in the pot. Take a sponge and stick it on gravel in a pot.

Does Gravel in Pots and Containers Increase Drainage?

Don't add stones or gravel in the bottom of potted plants. They don't increase drainage and may make it harder for plants to grow.

www.gardenmyths.com

Based on my 30 years of professional work in the horticultural industry, @turtile knows what he is talking about.

 

[turtile]

^ Sadly you have just memorized bad info and it would take more education than I am willing to provide in a forum topic, so I will just try to give you the condensed version.

Plants evolved to thrive in their native environment including ground soil planting. The goal is to replicate that environment, not to pretend it is so much different than planting in the ground.

This includes a low soil water saturation level, unless growing something that needs a lot like rice.

You have linked to a site giving at best a kindergartener type false analysis of the situation, while I have not only a lot better results but probably 4X the growing experience. Even so, the linked site disputes your ideal to water to container capacity.

That is so absolutely wrong that I can't even imagine how poor your grow results are. You should give the plants the lowest soil moisture that lets them thrive, not fluctuating between as much as the container will hold and then too dry.

If water drains out the bottom, you are either overwatering or have poor soil that does not hold the minimal amount needed till the next watering, or of course then too small a container.

In short, everything you are suggesting is horribly wrong. Plus there is no "perched water table higher", you are making up nonsense and if doing all you suggest, wasting a crazy amount of effort to achieve inferior results instead of just attempting to replicate what the plants evolved to thrive in.

Sadly I suspect that you can't accept the truth from someone with more experience and great results, so I will just leave it to each person to decide, to try it themselves instead of the madness of extra wasted effort for inferior results.

It's real simple, do not decrease container size, increase it because plants evolved with infinite soil available. Do not water and water as much as it will hold, that's what started the problem in the first place, "probably". Water the least amount needed, especially in this case where there is a lot of woody particles that need aerobic bacterial action to break them down into soil.

At this point, I know there is no point in arguing because your argument is a list of insults. But I will point out the facts for others in this thread...

There is no goal to replicate plants in their natural environment. When plants are cultivated, we grow the best plants by giving them what they need/what they prefer.

If what you say is true, methods such as hydroponics and aeroponics would fail.

In the wild, plants grow where they can survive/compete with other plants.

The plants look just fine at work today....

 

[mindless1]

^ Okay one last post.

Hydrophonics and aerophonics DO fail, at being a reasonable method of crop growth, unless the crop is something very exotic and costly and the outdoor environment can't support it for whichever reason. Otherwise it is labor and cost intensive for what little yield there is.

Your picture is an example of this, probably costs more for the lighting for this ONE plant, than my entire summer crop expenditures. Possibly by an order of magnitude, and then there is continual upkeep.

Would you, personally, run a hydro setup for a couple years just to get a blackberry to produce? Or would you stunt it with too small a pot, then drown it from overwatering? I would do neither.

Overwatering too small a pot then having stagnant water that also flushes out the nutrients, promotes fungus, and causes anaerobic decay of the organic soil, is not like hydro.

I guess some people just like doing things the hard way. Been there, learned a better way which is ironically, more like how farms have been doing it for centuries. Who knew?

 

[turtile]

^ Okay one last post.

Hydrophonics and aerophonics DO fail, at being a reasonable method of crop growth, unless the crop is something very exotic and costly and the outdoor environment can't support it for whichever reason. Otherwise it is labor and cost intensive for what little yield there is.

Your picture is an example of this, probably costs more for the lighting for this ONE plant, than my entire summer crop expenditures. Possibly by an order of magnitude, and then there is continual upkeep.

Would you, personally, run a hydro setup for a couple years just to get a blackberry to produce? Or would you stunt it with too small a pot, then drown it from overwatering? I would do neither.

Overwatering too small a pot then having stagnant water that also flushes out the nutrients, promotes fungus, and causes anaerobic decay of the organic soil, is not like hydro.

I guess some people just like doing things the hard way. Been there, learned a better way which is ironically, more like how farms have been doing it for centuries. Who knew?

Certain crops are efficiently grown in soilless systems. I grew over fifty different crops by hydroponics and it was very profitable for the company.

The lights aren't grow lights but video lights for the camera recording the development of the flowers on the spadix...

 

[Gardener]

^ Okay one last post.

Hydrophonics and aerophonics DO fail, at being a reasonable method of crop growth, unless the crop is something very exotic and costly and the outdoor environment can't support it for whichever reason. Otherwise it is labor and cost intensive for what little yield there is.

Your picture is an example of this, probably costs more for the lighting for this ONE plant, than my entire summer crop expenditures. Possibly by an order of magnitude, and then there is continual upkeep.

Would you, personally, run a hydro setup for a couple years just to get a blackberry to produce? Or would you stunt it with too small a pot, then drown it from overwatering? I would do neither.

Overwatering too small a pot then having stagnant water that also flushes out the nutrients, promotes fungus, and causes anaerobic decay of the organic soil, is not like hydro.

I guess some people just like doing things the hard way. Been there, learned a better way which is ironically, more like how farms have been doing it for centuries. Who knew?

And I can drive my truck in reverse to the jobsite.

turtile is correct, move along.

 

[mindless1]

^ Seems like a lazy trollish post, no, it is not "correct" to pretend that a lot of extra work and cost to achieve inferior results, is a good thing.

I spend far far less labor, and money, with my yield limitation being available real-estate, sun area.

If you can't understand that and are caught up on pretending that it's some hobby where more exotic means better, then you are where I was over 20 years ago.

It's kind of ludicrous, that plants managed to grow just fine without our help for millions of years, but now some internet trolls want to pretend they are masters of wastage.

Have fun doing it the hard way, then trying to defend waste.

I'm now at -1 posts remaining that I wish to make in this topic, but I just hate it when ignorance tries to sway people to do foolish, wasteful things when gardening is pretty simple if you avoid the urban myths and misinformation.

It's pretty simple, not making mistakes. There is a learning curve but that also includes, rejecting nonsense that only adds work and cost without gain.

This is not an opinion, this I have proven over decades of Doing It. Vague internet arguments do not trump results.

Further, the whole topic is insane, anyone can google search for how much soil/area a blackberry plant needs. Imagine searching for info instead of just listening to a couple of people!