HELP! What is killing my blackberry plant seedlings?!?!?

SaltyNuts

Platinum Member
May 1, 2001
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What is causing the leaves to all turn brown and die? Its already killed one of my seedlings, it is on some others. I think it is some kind of fungus or bacteria, I don't have them in too harsh sun or too much shade, I'm not giving them any strong fertilizers or anything else that could be causing this. Please help!!!
 

deadlyapp

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2004
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My guess is that there is something wrong with the soil or it was a bad transplant.
 

SaltyNuts

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May 1, 2001
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Don't think it can be the soil deadlyapp, its regular raised bed/potting soil that I plant everything else in. It should have plenty of nutrients as well. I don't think its the transplant either. This is just some slow virus or fungus type thing that is eating away the leaves starting at the tips until the entire plant is dead I think.
 

SaltyNuts

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May 1, 2001
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Could just be transplant shock.


Thanks Boomer. But I transplanted them as seedings like 3 or 4 months ago. Could that still be it? When I've seen transplant shock before the effect is very pronounced right away, the plant either dies right away or just go to complete shit right away, recovering very slowly. But this is something that is just veeeery slowly eating away at their leaves, eventually they all turn black/brown and its dead.
 

RPD

Diamond Member
Jul 22, 2009
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For MOST plants, browning leaves can mean over watering or too much sun. If it's not sun, are you watering too much?
 

SaltyNuts

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May 1, 2001
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Well shit RPD, that could be it. I literally thought it was IMPOSSIBLE to overwater a plant that had good drainage in Houston with it being close to 100 degrees outside, but that is all I can think of. I don't have them in any direct sun. REAL CLOSE to direct sun, so a ton of indirect sun, so I don't think too little or too much sun could be killing them (only maybe holding them back a bit), so if its not a fungus or bacteria or something the only thing I can think of is too much water. Will start cutting back on it immediately. Thanks so much!!!
 

RPD

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Jul 22, 2009
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If you are new to tending to plants, over watering is the reason most plants die and until you get a firm grip on watering a trick is to take a bamboo skewer that is dry and push it all the way into the soil (hopefully it's longer than the dirt is). Pull it out and you can see how far the soil is still moist based on how the dirt sticks or doesn't to the skewer. Most plants want to dry out about 3/4ths of the dirt before you water again.

BUT that assumes you have roots throughout the pot and length of the skewer you are measuring with. By your picture it looks like your plant is in too large of a pot, but given it's stressed state I wouldn't recommend moving it either. I bring this up because if the roots only go down 2" but the pot is 8" tall, the method I gave you obviously will result in a dead plant as it will dry out before you'd water again.

For now just try cutting back on the watering.
 
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mindless1

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Did you put a dressing on top of the soil in that picture? If not, what is pictured is not soil yet, it is wood chips, and is starving the plant for nutrients. Overwatering would make that even worse, though keeping the wood chips damp, will help them rot away to become soil by next year.
 
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mindless1

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By your picture it looks like your plant is in too large of a pot, but given it's stressed state I wouldn't recommend moving it either. I bring this up because if the roots only go down 2" but the pot is 8" tall, the method I gave you obviously will result in a dead plant as it will dry out before you'd water again.

It's only too big a pot for your suggested method of measurement. Otherwise, a larger pot is ideal for reducing chances of overwatering in a hot climate.

This allows watering less often and having the water dissipate throughout the greater soil volume, instead of soggy roots, and not flushing nutrients out the bottom of the pot, so not always fluctuating between too much water and too much drying out from the hot climate, and allows the top surface to dry between waterings so far less of a chance of fungus growing on that woody pre-soil mix.

In a hot climate (longer growing season), I wouldn't even transplant anything unless it was store bought opposed to starting from seed. Instead I'd just direct sew seed into the largest pot (or even better, ground or raised bed) you can allocate to it. In colder regions, it's a bit different, starting plant indoors or let a nursery do it so your crop has enough time till first frost to be productive.
 

SaltyNuts

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mindless1, no, that is straight raised bed soil or potting soil. That brand does have some wood chips in it, however. But I don't think that is the problem. I bet its the whole over watering thing. Cutting back greatly to see what happens - will report back. Thanks!
 

bbhaag

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It looks over watered to me. It is also in to large of container for a seedling.
 

mindless1

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There is no such thing as too large a container as far as plant health.

If you do multiple transplants, not only do you subject it to shock with each, you also end up with a more compacted root ball that is inferior for absorbing nutrients and water, and provides less wind resistance.

The only reasons seedlings usually start in small containers is to take up less space in a nursery or grow chamber, and for the nursery to be giving away a less expensive, smaller container and amount of soil, along with the impracticality of customers transporting huge pots of soil, -OR- if you DIY, start them from seed indoors under artificial light then it is much easier to move them outdoors and back indoors a few times during the hardening off period to acclimate them to sunlight.

I'll have to take Salty's word for it that the soil is viable. I still think it is a year away from optimal but failing another cause, overwatering seems most likely.
 

RPD

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Jul 22, 2009
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It's only too big a pot for your suggested method of measurement. Otherwise, a larger pot is ideal for reducing chances of overwatering in a hot climate.

This allows watering less often and having the water dissipate throughout the greater soil volume, instead of soggy roots, and not flushing nutrients out the bottom of the pot, so not always fluctuating between too much water and too much drying out from the hot climate, and allows the top surface to dry between waterings so far less of a chance of fungus growing on that woody pre-soil mix.

In a hot climate (longer growing season), I wouldn't even transplant anything unless it was store bought opposed to starting from seed. Instead I'd just direct sew seed into the largest pot (or even better, ground or raised bed) you can allocate to it. In colder regions, it's a bit different, starting plant indoors or let a nursery do it so your crop has enough time till first frost to be productive.
All things being equal yes, obviously as plants can grow just fine in the dirt in a yard. The issue is all things aren't equal. As previously said with young gardeners over watering is what ends up killing plants. The problem with too large a pot for a plant is while the top can quickly dry out, the bottom of too large of a pot won't and can continually stay wet, which will cause problems for the roots eventually.
 

mindless1

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^ That's why you put a layer of gravel at the bottom, or sand, or a lot of drainage holes... or, just don't overwater.

This is another factor of having optimal soil too. It should wick the moisture, so even after the top surface dries, once you get an inch down, it is still damp.
 

RPD

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Jul 22, 2009
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^ That's why you put a layer of gravel at the bottom, or sand, or a lot of drainage holes... or, just don't overwater.

This is another factor of having optimal soil too. It should wick the moisture, so even after the top surface dries, once you get an inch down, it is still damp.
Yes, again the whole reasoning here is over watering happens, the thinking of pot size to plant size is a small plant in a small pot is harder to over water because the surface soil is much closer repesentation of the entire pot vs. a seedling in a 12" diameter 3' tall one.
 

mindless1

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I think it is easier to overwater in a small pot, because the plant runs out of water much faster, have to water more often then end up with a damp surface too large a % of the time, then fungus or even worse, fungus gnats.

Large pot, you simply water about the same as you would have in a smaller pot, plus minor increase for the exposed soil surface area, including a bit more if it's especially windy.

In other words, do everything exactly the same ignoring pot size, and you're better off with the larger pot. The thing NOT to do is give it a lot more water, since you are only adding back what the plant and surface loss is.

This is not a reason to use a smaller pot. This is a reason to not overwater no matter what size pot.
 

RPD

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Jul 22, 2009
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I think it is easier to overwater in a small pot, because the plant runs out of water much faster, have to water more often then end up with a damp surface too large a % of the time, then fungus or even worse, fungus gnats.

Large pot, you simply water about the same as you would have in a smaller pot, plus minor increase for the exposed soil surface area, including a bit more if it's especially windy.

In other words, do everything exactly the same ignoring pot size, and you're better off with the larger pot. The thing NOT to do is give it a lot more water, since you are only adding back what the plant and surface loss is.

This is not a reason to use a smaller pot. This is a reason to not overwater no matter what size pot.
 
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mindless1

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^ Just telling you what has worked for me, over 30+ years of container gardening and longer than that, raised bed and in-ground.

Over that time, I always had good results so my efforts drifted towards lower effort. The only effort I have now that I'd like to reduce, is continual trips to put kitchen scraps out into the compost. I set up a bin indoors to put them in, but then that needs washed, and it's not a long trip out to the patio where my outdoor compost bins are.

PS, Jim Carrey is one of the few celebrities I'm aware of, that I would beat senseless based on principle. He is natural at what he does because he's an idiot.
 
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RPD

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Jul 22, 2009
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^ Just telling you what has worked for me, over 30+ years of container gardening and longer than that, raised bed and in-ground.

Over that time, I always had good results so my efforts drifted towards lower effort. The only effort I have now that I'd like to reduce, is continual trips to put kitchen scraps out into the compost. I set up a bin indoors to put them in, but then that needs washed, and it's not a long trip out to the patio where my outdoor compost bins are.

PS, Jim Carrey is one of the few celebrities I'm aware of, that I would beat senseless based on principle. He is natural at what he does because he's an idiot.
Have you tried decaf?
 

mindless1

Diamond Member
Aug 11, 2001
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^ Would it make me like Jim Carrey more? I barely even drink caffeinated beverages these days, just a couple cups of joe in the morning to wake me up, which was over a dozen hours before I posted. Maybe too much caffeine is Carrey's problem, plus people cheer him on, while most spaz kids are disciplined and Grow Up.
 

turtile

Senior member
Aug 19, 2014
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It looks like a root problem due to the media remaining wet for too long. You can place it in a smaller pot so it will dry out faster to prevent the perfect conditions for disease development.
 
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mindless1

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lolololol, NO!

A smaller pot is more likely to cause overwatering problems because the water then fluctuates between too much and too dry. It is more likely to cause disease problems because of nutrient deficiencies and having to keep the top surface of the soil wet a far larger % of the time because it dries too quickly to not water often enough to wet the soil surface again. It makes it mandatory to get the roots too soggy because it isn't practical to keep rewatering multiple times a day.

Simply water less if it is overwatered. There is nothing better than that. If it were not a hot environment then I'd also suggest, adding some sand for better drainage ahead of planting, but that is not the case here.

If anything the pot it is in is already too small, should have already been in a pot big enough to sustain its entire lifetime of growth once it is growing outdoors.

Blackberries do best in > 20 gallons of soil in a container, PER plant. In a raised bed, that's 1 ft depth (or more) and 2 ft (or more) between plants. Go smaller or keep transplanting larger just severely stunts the plant, and isn't all that easy to do once it gets past about 2/3rd cubic foot sized root ball that the undersized pot caused.

Considering that, it would be better to just grow them in a raised bed or anywhere in the ground, or if you want a container, probably most cost effective is to get some used 55 gallon barrels with lids (plastic not metal) off craigslist and cut them in half for two containers.

The goal here isn't just to get a plant to survive. It's to get it to be healthy, large, productive in the case of food crop plants. In the container it's presently in, it won't even get to 1/3rd its full potential, and even worse the smaller the container.
 
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turtile

Senior member
Aug 19, 2014
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lolololol, NO!

A smaller pot is more likely to cause overwatering problems because the water then fluctuates between too much and too dry. It is more likely to cause disease problems because of nutrient deficiencies and having to keep the top surface of the soil wet a far larger % of the time because it dries too quickly to not water often enough to wet the soil surface again. It makes it mandatory to get the roots too soggy because it isn't practical to keep rewatering multiple times a day.

It doesn't fluctuate if the plant is watered properly. If the plant is grown outside, it will be wet if it rains. Nutrients will always leach from container media when the water drains out of the bottom. I use mixed feeding outdoors and constant feeding under glass. The pot is too small if the plant needs water multiple times per day.

There's no issue if the surface of the media is dry. Container plants should always be watered to container capacity because dry spots can form within the pot. Proper media for the plant can not be too 'soggy'.

Roots need oxygen and pathogens thrive without it. Keeping the poorly aerated media wet reduces the air available to plant roots.

Simply water less if it is overwatered. There is nothing better than that. If it were not a hot environment then I'd also suggest, adding some sand for better drainage ahead of planting, but that is not the case here.

If anything the pot it is in is already too small, should have already been in a pot big enough to sustain its entire lifetime of growth once it is growing outdoors.

Sand doesn't increase drainage, it just holds less water than many organic substrates. Small particles of sand clog media pore space and reduce soil aeration.

You mentioned earlier that gravel increases drainage, but gravel doesn't increase drainage. It makes the volume of media smaller in the pot (basically decreases the size of the pot). The gravel also pushes the perched water table closer to the stem of the plant which is the layer of media that remains fully saturated and devoid of needed oxygen.

Blackberries do best in > 20 gallons of soil in a container, PER plant. In a raised bed, that's 1 ft depth (or more) and 2 ft (or more) between plants. Go smaller or keep transplanting larger just severely stunts the plant, and isn't all that easy to do once it gets past about 2/3rd cubic foot sized root ball that the undersized pot caused.

Considering that, it would be better to just grow them in a raised bed or anywhere in the ground, or if you want a container, probably most cost effective is to get some used 55 gallon barrels with lids (plastic not metal) off craigslist and cut them in half for two containers.

The goal here isn't just to get a plant to survive. It's to get it to be healthy, large, productive in the case of food crop plants. In the container it's presently in, it won't even get to 1/3rd its full potential, and even worse the smaller the container.

That's a great size for a fully grown plant. And if you use well aerated media, and have the proper climatic conditions, planting seedlings directly into large pots will work. However, the plant posted here has damaged roots so moisture needs to be controlled so it can recover. The media isn't great either.

The plants will not be stunted if they are transplanted before the plant becomes root bound.

In-ground culture is very different than pot culture!
 
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mindless1

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It doesn't fluctuate if the plant is watered properly. If the plant is grown outside, it will be wet if it rains. Nutrients will always leach from container media when the water drains out of the bottom.

Water only drains out the bottom if they are excessively watered, or in some cases left to dry out too much and the soil pulls away from the sides of the container so the water runs down the sides instead, so to remedy this you pack a new ring of soil around the container. If the excessive water is due to rain, it may be unavoidable without great effort (if more than a tiny # of plants) but is no greater penalty with a larger container.

I use mixed feeding outdoors and constant feeding under glass. The pot is too small if the plant needs water multiple times per day.

We agree on this, but to be clear the consideration how often per day during the hotter months once the plant has reached good size, and assuming normal growth rate rather than being stunted.

There's no issue if the surface of the media is dry. Container plants should always be watered to container capacity because dry spots can form within the pot. Proper media for the plant can not be too 'soggy'.

Roots need oxygen and pathogens thrive without it. Keeping the poorly aerated media wet reduces the air available to plant roots.

These two statements seem contradictory. On the one hand you're stating container plaints should always be watered to container capacity, which by the way is not true at all. You only want to put back what the plant and evaporation takes out. Dry spots are minimally different in moisture level in good soil as the soil wicks the moisture and further, the plant has grown its roots where moisture is present. I water when the plants look like they need it, and only enough for them to go a few days, then 3, then 2, until it gets hotter and they get larger, then only enough for them to go one day before watered again.

The contradiction is after stating to water to container capacity, then you are decreasing the oxygen penetration and promoting fungal growth, and then also gnats. Very few types of plants thrive with this excess soil moisture.

Sand doesn't increase drainage, it just holds less water than many organic substrates. Small particles of sand clog media pore space and reduce soil aeration.

Holds less water is the same thing as increasing drainage because that is the result, less water retention for situations where overwatering cannot be avoided such as excessive spring rain, or during the learning process of how much (and how little) water they need for a given size, pot size, and climate.

You mentioned earlier that gravel increases drainage, but gravel doesn't increase drainage. It makes the volume of media smaller in the pot (basically decreases the size of the pot). The gravel also pushes the perched water table closer to the stem of the plant which is the layer of media that remains fully saturated and devoid of needed oxygen.

Gravel does increase drainage, because it creates gaps that do not wick nearly as much back upwards in the pot, as soil does, allows the water to drain instead of pooling in the bottom as much, which is the opposite of pushing water table closer to the stem. It simply is not as you are describing, and does not require enough gravel to displace a significant % of soil.

That's a great size for a fully grown plant. And if you use well aerated media, and have the proper climatic conditions, planting seedlings directly into large pots will work. However, the plant posted here has damaged roots so moisture needs to be controlled so it can recover. The media isn't great either.

It is very simple to reduce moisture, stop watering it for a period then water less. However if the soil is now full of fungus, it may need repotted not to change the pot size but rather to provide different soil. Practically speaking, it is too late in the season to hope for much. Even with a great recovery, it is doubtful that it would bare fruit this year if it is even a type that would instead of 2-3 years.

The plants will not be stunted if they are transplanted before the plant becomes root bound.

Transplanting itself stunts a plant even if not root bound. In loose soil, a lot of the root hairs will be torn off unless it was already bound into a ball and stunted from that. In a more practical sense, considering the full size that a blackberry will attain, it becomes quite cumbersome to keep transplanting from a few gallons of soil, to a few more, and a few more, especially when it can just start in the right sized container for supporting full growth, as soon as hardened off so it can survive outdoors.

I never have a problem doing as I've described. I only transplant in 2-3 situations.

1) Bought something at the local nursery so comes it a little 1/2 cup container, then if the expectation of last spring frost is over, gets transplanted into the biggest pot it will ever get.

2) Started from seed indoors to get a head start, again in a little, but larger 1-2 cup container. I do this less and less in recent years, makes more sense to me to just put more plants in the same available space and seed them outdoors in their life-long containers, if not in the ground.

3) Perennials that can't tolerate the freezing winters here, so will be in a container that isn't too heavy for one person to transport indoors to spend the winter there, but then as an overwintered plant, will need transplanted into a container at least triple the size when put back outdoors in spring, to support unstunted growth the next year, resulting in a container weight in excess of 75lbs (wet), too heavy to continue moving around more than a few feet. I usually cannot get more than one additional year out of overwintered plants due to this, but get an extreme yield that second year, so the yield per available space is maximized.

I have been refining my process for decades, to achieve maximum results with the least burden... It doesn't even make sense to keep putting more effort into repotting because putting too much effort into excessive watering. Avoid both.
 
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