Here is the wise and great Senator Feinstein of CA's Assault Weapon Ban proposal

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Matt1970

Lifer
Mar 19, 2007
12,320
3
0
Hmm, seems nobody told the parents of the kids at Columbine that they were lucky thier kids were only killed with a 9mm that had a 10 round magazine. Things would have been far worse if the got killed by a gun with a magainze that held more than 10 rounds.
 

sigurros81

Platinum Member
Nov 30, 2010
2,371
0
0
What about the Virginia Tech shooter who used a .22 pistol and a 9mm and ended up killing more innocents than the assholes with AR15s?
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
76
Just throwing this out there: I would trade away a lot of freedoms voluntarily (random inspections, certified safe installation, 100% background checks) for a reasonably priced kitchen table FFL.
THAT is a compromise I could get behind.

I... don't understand. You can do that now. FFL's aren't monstrously expensive, but you do subject yourself to random inspections, a thorough background check, etc. "Kitchen table" FFLs came back under Bush after Clinton axed them. I have a friend that started a successful internet gun company with a kitchen table FFL in 2010.
 

xj0hnx

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2007
9,262
3
76
I... don't understand. You can do that now. FFL's aren't monstrously expensive, but you do subject yourself to random inspections, a thorough background check, etc. "Kitchen table" FFLs came back under Bush after Clinton axed them. I have a friend that started a successful internet gun company with a kitchen table FFL in 2010.

I don't think that an internet business is the same as a "Kitchen Table" FFL. Does your friend have people physically come to his house? Seems like I was asking about that around that same time, and the answer I got back was that in order to do FTF gun sales as a business, you had to have a B&M store.
 

Phanuel

Platinum Member
Apr 25, 2008
2,304
2
0
Need a lot more than that.

You also need :

-a double hook hammer for that auto sear to engage
-a non milled out bolt carrier rear end to trip that tail on the auto sear and release the hammer as the bolt closes
-a safety selector switch to disengage the semi auto disconnector
-a disconnector with a tail for the selector lever to engage

For burst:
-ratchet wheel and spring for the hammer axis pin to re-engage the disconnector every n shots as determined by n ramps on the wheel.

Trivial for people with basic mechanical skills yes. I could hand mill the parts myself. That's part of the allure of firearms, they are some of the oldest and simplest machines in existence.

Well, that is a lightning link, it's designed to convert a semi-automatic to a full-automatic with no ability left to select fire. You have full fun mode or safe, no inbetween.

Even easier to do full-automatic, remove the disconnect spring, done!
 

xj0hnx

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2007
9,262
3
76
Well, that is a lightning link, it's designed to convert a semi-automatic to a full-automatic with no ability left to select fire. You have full fun mode or safe, no inbetween.

Even easier to do full-automatic, remove the disconnect spring, done!

It's not that simple, the hammer will just ride the bolt forward, there has to be a mechanism that allows the bolt to go forward, and then the hammer drop, which is the job of the sear. It insures the bolt is in full lock up and battery before allowing the hammer to fall.
 
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Phanuel

Platinum Member
Apr 25, 2008
2,304
2
0
It's not that simple, the hammer will just ride the bolt forward, there has to be a mechanism that allows the bolt to go forward, and then the hammer drop, which is the job of the sear. It insures the bolt is in full lock up and battery before allowing the hammer to fall.

I never said it was smart. Lots of people get NDs, doubling and tripling, because the spring breaks or their sear surfaces get worn because of shoddy trigger jobs. I'd rather have full select fire than just safe and full auto.
 

exdeath

Lifer
Jan 29, 2004
13,679
10
81
Well, that is a lightning link, it's designed to convert a semi-automatic to a full-automatic with no ability left to select fire. You have full fun mode or safe, no inbetween.

Even easier to do full-automatic, remove the disconnect spring, done!

That device is called a DIAS, a drop in auto sear, a registered machine gun by itself.

Its designed to use in conjunction with other machine gun fire control group parts to use in a semi auto receiver without having to drill the receiver for a OEM auto sear axis pin and thus turning IT the receiver forever into the machine gun.

It would do nothing in a semi auto FCG. It wouldn't be able to engage a single hook semi auto hammer and the semi auto bolt carrier doesn't have enough metal to trip the "tail".

And screwing with the disconnector just means you have a potentially dangerous malfunctioning firearm. Depends what's worse, blowing your face off or being accused of knowingly "manufacturing a machine gun" (which is BS but can and does happen)
 
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Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
I don't think that an internet business is the same as a "Kitchen Table" FFL. Does your friend have people physically come to his house? Seems like I was asking about that around that same time, and the answer I got back was that in order to do FTF gun sales as a business, you had to have a B&M store.

I recently looked into the licensing for FFLs. Thought I could get one, then buy directly from the manufacturers. I didnt see anything about having a storefront. But you do have to move inventory. So it is designed to discourage individuals from using the FFL for themselves.
 

TerryMathews

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,473
2
0
I recently looked into the licensing for FFLs. Thought I could get one, then buy directly from the manufacturers. I didnt see anything about having a storefront. But you do have to move inventory. So it is designed to discourage individuals from using the FFL for themselves.

And now the ATF won't approve FFLs without a physical storefront.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
And now the ATF won't approve FFLs without a physical storefront.

When did this change? I am looking at the application right now and it lists possible locations of business as Singlefamily,condo,hotel\motel,public housing.
 

exdeath

Lifer
Jan 29, 2004
13,679
10
81
AFAIK the only limitation is if local zoning allows commercial traffic to your residence. BATF recognizes local zoning laws when granting FFLs.
 
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Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
AFAIK the only limitation is if local zoning allows commercial traffic to your residence.

There is that. The business has to adhere to state and local law. But I dont know of many state or local laws that require a storefront for business. But it is possible each state has specific laws in regards to selling guns.
 

CrackRabbit

Lifer
Mar 30, 2001
16,641
58
91
A reliable machine gun would still be pricey. Hell, keep the nfa and stamp. The problem is that someone would eventually use one in a crime, and much like semi auto rifles, people would incorrectly think that extra lives are lost.

Short barrels and supressors are nfa and I can tell you that criminal elements are not using those nfa weapons.

The thing is, for may guns it takes a dremel and 15 minutes of work to turn it from semi auto to full auto. It's not expensive, hard, or remotely difficult. Info on how to do it can be found even on youtube as my post above showed. So why don't criminals do it? The reasons I mentioned earlier. It's quite impractical and doesn't actually make the gun any more lethal.

Ok, much clearer head now.

I guess what the whole point of my posts were is that the original NFA (not including the import ban that was added later) was put in place for exactly the reasons I'm stating. An abundance of fairly inexpensive fully automatic weapons were in the hands of criminals, namely the mafia, and they used them to great effect.
A law similar to the NFA or a reversion back to the original NFA with some tweaks would allow enthusiasts and collectors to possess automatic weapons for recreational purposes with less worry of them being used in committing a crime.
 

Doppel

Lifer
Feb 5, 2011
13,306
3
0

TerryMathews

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,473
2
0
When did this change? I am looking at the application right now and it lists possible locations of business as Singlefamily,condo,hotel\motel,public housing.

I think we're using the same terms and meaning different things.

You can't get an FFL unless you're running an active, profit-generating business.

You can't be a hobbyist and get an FFL. You can't, for example, just order guns for your own collection.

I would like to see the equivalent of the C&R for modern firearms.
 

xj0hnx

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2007
9,262
3
76
Ok, much clearer head now.

I guess what the whole point of my posts were is that the original NFA (not including the import ban that was added later) was put in place for exactly the reasons I'm stating. An abundance of fairly inexpensive fully automatic weapons were in the hands of criminals, namely the mafia, and they used them to great effect.
A law similar to the NFA or a reversion back to the original NFA with some tweaks would allow enthusiasts and collectors to possess automatic weapons for recreational purposes with less worry of them being used in committing a crime.

But you also have to look at how things were as a whole back then too, you could order guns and ammo from Sears and Roebucks, or Woolworths, there was also prohibition and the mafias were VERY powerful, and pretty damn brazen.

Personally IMO they can keep the NFA, as long as they lift the import/manufacture ban. Prices will come down to attainable for the more recreational collectors, but still be too high for your average street thug.
 
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HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,667
440
126
Ok, much clearer head now.

I guess what the whole point of my posts were is that the original NFA (not including the import ban that was added later) was put in place for exactly the reasons I'm stating. An abundance of fairly inexpensive fully automatic weapons were in the hands of criminals, namely the mafia, and they used them to great effect.
A law similar to the NFA or a reversion back to the original NFA with some tweaks would allow enthusiasts and collectors to possess automatic weapons for recreational purposes with less worry of them being used in committing a crime.

In correct. Rarely ever used that way like you see in the gangster movies. There were never roving men in suits and tommy's shooting up vegas. Pure fictional work. The 1936 ban was put in place because people feared it could happen. Were there some mafia people that had access to a full auto? Sure, but then like now it was rarely used in a crime. Impractical, too heavy for the sustained use of ammo need, and doesn't do the job.

Again, turning a gun from a semi auto to a full is NOT HARD. It has never been hard. Fears of mafia or gang members or bank robbers mowing hundreds of people down per second is crap fiction for books and movies.

With weapons NOT MADE by criminals, there has been only 2 crimes that have ever been committed with a full auto weapon to harm another human since 1934. There have been some crimes committed with legal firearms that were of a registration ATF type crime though. Even that was less than 10 according to the last ATF director that America had. Something we are still without.

With illegally made full auto weapons, very few crimes of their use are even on record. Most of the crimes involving machine guns are from the confiscation during a drug bust of an illegally made automatic weapon. Even in the heights of massive crime waves and drug/mafia cartels, they have been rarely ever created illegally and even rarer still used. This is talking about vegas, miami, chicago, dc, and new york during their height of respective crime waves.
 
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Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
silencers

Amusingly in order to obtain a suppressor (not a silencer) you must jump through quite a few hoops, get a signature from your local sheriff, register it, and transfer it with the ATF. The process can easily take 4-6 months from the time you actually purchase it to when you actually receive it.

So basically, if one is used in a crime there is a very short list of people in the area that own one and that list is available to the local LEOs.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
Ok, much clearer head now.

I guess what the whole point of my posts were is that the original NFA (not including the import ban that was added later) was put in place for exactly the reasons I'm stating. An abundance of fairly inexpensive fully automatic weapons were in the hands of criminals, namely the mafia, and they used them to great effect.
A law similar to the NFA or a reversion back to the original NFA with some tweaks would allow enthusiasts and collectors to possess automatic weapons for recreational purposes with less worry of them being used in committing a crime.

Could you give me 10 examples of criminals using full auto weapons "to great effect"?

Furthermore, google how to make a semi-auto rifle into full auto so that you can see exactly how easy it is and then tell me why you think we don't see all sorts of criminals illegally modifying and using full auto weapons?

Short answer: Criminals primarily use cheap guns. Any "military style" gun is expensive as hell relative to a cheap Hi-point or Byrco pistol. Look at the ATFs top ten list of guns used in crime and you will see almost exclusively cheap ass pistols. There are a ton of other reasons as well such as the fact that it is very hard to conceal a rifle but the main driving force behind weapons used in crime is the cost of the weapon.

If any legislature was actually serious about preventing gun deaths and thought that a gun ban would do that they would start with cheaper than dirt pistols and not expensive "assault weapons". Unfortunately, they are not serious about stopping crime and are instead interested in playing politics.
 

OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,413
616
126
It is not designed to kill masses of people instantly as idiotic politicians would have you believe.

humm me being a M-60 machine-gunner in my former life i would have to disagree with you on that statement. 100 round belt, 300 people, dead in 30 seconds.

<<student at the 2 week long M-60 machine gun school at Camp Bullis Texas.
 

OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,413
616
126
In correct. Rarely ever used that way like you see in the gangster movies.

do you live in a alternate dimension or something? the tommy gun was the gun of choice by the gansters, do you know what guns were used by Capone and the st valentine day massacre? it was not a Springfield 03.
 

OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,413
616
126
With weapons NOT MADE by criminals, there has been only 2 crimes that have ever been committed with a full auto weapon to harm another human since 1934.

2? really???? only 2 crimes in the entire US since 1934 has ever been committed with a full auto?

good grief dude stop making yourself look like a dummy.

here read this from the CA governement.

http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/pdfs/publications/Firearms_Report_09.pdf

in 2009 3% of the homicides in CA were from machine guns.
Homicides (Figure 4)
Of the 32 firearms (21.8 percent of the total) submitted in homicide cases, there were 24 (75.0 percent) handguns, 3 (9.0 percent) rifles, 4 (13.0 percent) shotguns, and 1 (3.0 percent) machine gun (submachine gun).
 

TallBill

Lifer
Apr 29, 2001
46,044
62
91
2? really???? only 2 crimes in the entire US since 1934 has ever been committed with a full auto?

good grief dude stop making yourself look like a dummy.

here read this from the CA governement.

http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/pdfs/publications/Firearms_Report_09.pdf

in 2009 3% of the homicides in CA were from machine guns.
Homicides (Figure 4)
Of the 32 firearms (21.8 percent of the total) submitted in homicide cases, there were 24 (75.0 percent) handguns, 3 (9.0 percent) rifles, 4 (13.0 percent) shotguns, and 1 (3.0 percent) machine gun (submachine gun).

Was illegally modified. Anyways, combat troops agree unanimously that burst and full auto isn't used on their m4's/m16's in combat.

I wouldn't actually push to legalize machine guns because people are so god damn scared and clueless.

Look at the crimes by caliber. Attacking rifles and regular sized magazines is an absolutely retarded approach to tackling violence in America. Even if criminals did prefer to use rifles, banning them won't stop criminals from using them.
 
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