[Hexus] AMD initiating significant price cuts for 290 and 290X

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guskline

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2006
5,338
476
126
Still the same algorithms used

Correct me if I'm incorrect, but in the article you cite (I read it, the writer talks about both the GTX970 and GTX980 and the memory compression but in the testing phase of the article ONLY uses the GTX980( which thankfully for 980 owners is full bore 4GVram).

I'm not sure citing to that article to defend the GTX970 helps me much.:\
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
145
106
It is a good thing AMD changed leadership, I just hope it isn't too late. I want AMD to live forever. I really don't want to imagine how bad the price to performance it will be if AMD is gone from both cpu and gpu markets.

CPU we already know, since AMD have zero influence on price there.

The question begs what the GPU one will be. Will it mroe or less be same same, or will it be higher.
 

WittyRemark

Member
Dec 7, 2014
119
0
0
CPU we already know, since AMD have zero influence on price there.

The question begs what the GPU one will be. Will it more or less be same same, or will it be higher.
Most probably higher,
The higher the difference between performance compared to last gen the higher the price they can charge for the next gen.
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
145
106
Most probably higher,
The higher the difference between performance compared to last gen the higher the price they can charge for the next gen.

The demand isnt static. And there is a curve between volume/price with optimal profit. We know the CPUs have hit it from Intel and only seeing inflation based increases.

The only question is, how does the curve for GPUs look. I dont expect it to look much more different than the prices today.
 

shady28

Platinum Member
Apr 11, 2004
2,520
397
126
Those benchmarks have changed much like AMD's CF solutions. They need an asterisk whenever at high resolutions and/or with high VRAM usage.

I assume you mean the AMD Omega drivers.

If you go here you'll find 1440p and 3k benchmarks of the 290X vs 970 and 980. You'll also find frame time variances, which where you might see a problem with the 970.

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/far-cry-4-benchmark-performance-review,4019-4.html


At 1440p :

970 1.3, 1.4, 3.4 at avg, 75th and 95th percentiles.

290X 5.3, 7.1, 21.8 at avg, 75th and 95th percentiles.


970 gets 44.0 min / 48.7 avg vs the 6GB 290X 39.0 min / 50 avg

Only at 3k / 2160p does the 6GB 290X edge out the 970 in Far Cry 4. Even then, the 290X has higher frame time variances (aka 'stutter').


Shadows of Mordor is the one where people are looking to see the impact of the 512MB crossbar VRAM.

This is what happens to 980 vs 970 when they push beyond 3.5GB in SoM :

>3.5GB setting = 3456x1944 55fps (-24%) 45fps (-25%)


This on Battlefield 4 :

>3.5GB setting = 3840x2160 135% res 19fps (-47%) 15fps (-50%)

This on CoD AW :

>3.5GB setting = 3840x2160 FSMAA T2x, Supersampling on 48fps (-41%) 40fps (-44%)


This is exactly in line with what Nvidia has stated - a 1-3% performance difference when a game uses beyond 3.5GB.

You basically have to run at 2160p to get fps parity between an R9 290 and a 970, and even then the R9 290 has more frametime variance.


For SoM :









 

Magic Carpet

Diamond Member
Oct 2, 2011
3,477
232
106
Drop the 970 to $200, then I might consider it. Until then, fugettaboutit.
If everybody were like you, Larry

I think, GTX 460 was sold for similar money, and only lacking some 30-35% speed compared to 480. 460 SLI was actually faster than a single 480. And what do we have now. 980 > 960 SLI, any time (not to mention double the vram). Your suggested price seems to be fair, but Nvidia is not a charity organization and AMD has been slacking a bit. If these prices were too high, I suspect, nobody would be buying them. Apparently, for most people this price is OK. And high sales, have been a strong indication. AMD needs a new flagship, until then, I expect more of the 970 sales.

Larry, this one going for $275 on ebay. So, even the eBay market thinks 970 is worth more than $200. That's what matters.
 
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ocre

Golden Member
Dec 26, 2008
1,594
7
81
Wow, people talk about the 970 hitching, toms shows the 290x frame times are worse.

Also, the complaint about 970 SLI, just look at the 295x in 4K for comparison.

pushing up the settings and resolution causes GPUs to struggle.
I was not happy with the misrepresented specs for the gtx970. I returned my card because of it. But looking at comparison like these are the only way to see the real impact. Comparisons with other cards as a point of reference.

Every single video posted with 970 hitching is useless unless unless it contains other GPUs as a point of reference. I am sure this decision to cut down the 970 like so will have it limitations. I am sure there are ways to exploit that. But you guys have to understand that showing a video of a 970 hitching with stutter is nice and all. But not having a point of reference, its worthless.

You have to have other cards to compare to. The 970 along with 980 and the 290(x). measure the effect of all 3 and compare them together.
 

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
126
Puts the idea of buying flagship cards in a perspective, doesn't it? You can now buy 3 MSI Lightning 290X for less than the price of a single Titan or 2 for less than the price of a 780Ti just 1 year and 2 months later. You can now buy 4 290s for the price of a Titan or 3x 970s. Just shows that buying flagship $550+ cards is not for those with thin wallets. I have a feeling when GM200/380X come out, a $550-600 980 will look pretty bad. Just have 5-6 more months to wait. Looking forward to 980 performance level at $399-429, which is what the card should have cost on day 1.

290/290X/970 seem like the $200-350 sweet spot. If you go below, you lose way too much performance. If you go 980, you don't get much more performance but pay 70-100% more. Not a great situation for the GPU market for budget and high end gamers.
 
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krumme

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2009
5,956
1,595
136
What people don't seem to realise is that you can fit more data into 3.5GB using the 970's data compression than you could in a 290's 4GB.

So if you buy a car adverticed with 18 inch tyres and get it delivered with 17 inch with the explanation the suspension is better than the competition then its okey?
(and btw they were also bragging about the suspension)

I think you probably would complain. Why? Because your brand loyality is far less than what it is for nv. You can invent all kinds of creative excuses but loyalty is what makes the difference.

Think about how valuable nv brand is. They sell a product with 3.5gb and some even react like the above saying its okey even finding own creative excuses themselves. Its amazing and it just shows how superior nv marketing is and have been for the last 14 years.
 

shady28

Platinum Member
Apr 11, 2004
2,520
397
126
So if you buy a car adverticed with 18 inch tyres and get it delivered with 17 inch with the explanation the suspension is better than the competition then its okey?
(and btw they were also bragging about the suspension)

I think you probably would complain. Why? Because your brand loyality is far less than what it is for nv. You can invent all kinds of creative excuses but loyalty is what makes the difference.

Think about how valuable nv brand is. They sell a product with 3.5gb and some even react like the above saying its okey even finding own creative excuses themselves. Its amazing and it just shows how superior nv marketing is and have been for the last 14 years.

A better analogy would be that you buy a car that's advertised to go 0-60 in 7s and do the 1/4 mile in 15s.

Somewhere in the spec sheet it says the engine has 15psi fuel injectors. Later you find out they're only 13psi fuel injectors, but the manufacturer uses a combustion chamber shape that makes it as effective as 15psi.

So you return your car and get one that's a bit cheaper and does 0-60 in 7.5s and does the 1/4 mile in 15.5s.

...........
 

Pneumothorax

Golden Member
Nov 4, 2002
1,182
23
81
A better analogy would be that you buy a car that's advertised to go 0-60 in 7s and do the 1/4 mile in 15s.

Somewhere in the spec sheet it says the engine has 15psi fuel injectors. Later you find out they're only 13psi fuel injectors, but the manufacturer uses a combustion chamber shape that makes it as effective as 15psi.

So you return your car and get one that's a bit cheaper and does 0-60 in 7.5s and does the 1/4 mile in 15.5s.

...........

the car analogies is hard to carry forward on this one after thinking about it for awhile. The way the card was marketed was that you would get full performance for the use of the whole 4gb frame buffer. That's obviously not the case. For single card use and for 1080P gaming, you'll probably never notice the difference, but for 1440p/1600p/4K SLI you will.
 

Deders

Platinum Member
Oct 14, 2012
2,401
1
91
So if you buy a car adverticed with 18 inch tyres and get it delivered with 17 inch with the explanation the suspension is better than the competition then its okey?
(and btw they were also bragging about the suspension)

I think you probably would complain. Why? Because your brand loyality is far less than what it is for nv. You can invent all kinds of creative excuses but loyalty is what makes the difference.

Think about how valuable nv brand is. They sell a product with 3.5gb and some even react like the above saying its okey even finding own creative excuses themselves. Its amazing and it just shows how superior nv marketing is and have been for the last 14 years.

I'm not sat here looking for ways to defend Nvidia, my brain doesn't work like that. I'm merely pointing out an irony that seemed logical to me. Granted unless Nvidia either lock off find a way to stop stuttering in that last 512MB then people may still get stutters when it comes into play. And deceiving the public like this shouldn't have happened, it could quite easily been released as a 3.5GB card.

I'm actually a bit pissed off with Nvidia at the moment, after upgrading from a 670 to a 780 (to get the same performance to pixel ratio after upgrading from a 1680x1050 monitor to a 2560x1080) they go and release much cheaper cards 2 months later with very little warning of release date (all hints were towards Christmas) and the driver support for my card is left behind to the point I'm getting the same performance in newer games as if I'd side-graded to a much cheaper 280X.
 

shady28

Platinum Member
Apr 11, 2004
2,520
397
126
the car analogies is hard to carry forward on this one after thinking about it for awhile. The way the card was marketed was that you would get full performance for the use of the whole 4gb frame buffer. That's obviously not the case. For single card use and for 1080P gaming, you'll probably never notice the difference, but for 1440p/1600p/4K SLI you will.


Compared to what? The performance / benchmarks of the card have not changed.

Same could be said of the fuel injector. If one were planning to add forced induction (turbo or supercharger) on a car, you need bigger / higher volume injectors, so such an omission might cost some very small fraction of the market (< 1%) extra.

It's not even clear that the 512MB segment makes that difference. See benchmarks earlier in the thread, how does a 6GB R290X have higher frame time variance than the 'hobbled' 970 when using > 4GB of VRAM?

My guess it has to do with Maxwell's better compression, but that's just a guess. If one card has 4GB of VRAM but its texture compression is 25% better than the competitor, is it a 5GB card or a 4GB card? Is the memory bandwidth 229GB/s or 280GB/s after counting that compression? All of these questions and their answers are subsumed and aggregated into the benchmarks.
 

krumme

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2009
5,956
1,595
136
Does it make a difference?

Look where the 7970 is vs 680 today. Ram and specs matters for future games. 970 buyers got ripped here.

But anyway good greef if all specs was like that. Who in their sane mind can defend it?

What about letting consumers themselves decide if the specs matter or not.
 

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
126
What most defenders of this situation don't get is it came to light because PC gamers playing at 1080/1440/multi-monitor noticed issues like stuttering and poor performance in games. They then ran the synthetic VRAM apps to verify. If this issue didn't affect in-game performance in rare cases, it wouldn't be a big deal. While the performance in games for a 970 hasn't changed, the price/performance did. In the last 4 months 290/299X have fallen in price and gained performance relative to the 970 in modern titles, on average. What we have now is a $240-250 after-market 290 within 5% of a 970 at 1080p, and tied at 1440p and above. 290X is within 9-11% of a 980 only.

The VRAM issue only put 290/290X vs. 970/980 into the spotlight again and many are finally realizing that 970/980 no longer provide good price/performance that they did at launch. When I see that MSI Lightning 290X costs less than any 970, and you can buy almost 2 of them for the price of a 980, it's not even just about the VRAM issue, but highlights to me how NV charges huge premiums for its products. If most of the market is OK with paying these NV premiums, they will not care about the VRAM issue either since it means they would never consider AMD cards anyway.

For brand agnostic gamers, the way NV handled the 970 fiasco and their existing stance on 970/980 pricing is disappointing. If people defend NV's actions, it just continues to justify NV's pricing premiums and "a company that can do no wrong".
 
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boozzer

Golden Member
Jan 12, 2012
1,549
18
81
CPU we already know, since AMD have zero influence on price there.

The question begs what the GPU one will be. Will it mroe or less be same same, or will it be higher.
knowing nvidia and what they charged for titan? flagship gpus would be 1k+ tier 2 would be 700$ or more, tier 3 would be 400 to 500$ the super chips that came with bragging rights like titan would be 1500$ or more if NV can help it why not? people who sees green all the time would still buy them up.

think of the NV prices before the 290 + x dropped. that was messed up. think of the current resale prices of used nv cards, they are still messed up.
 

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
126
You don't need to see what would happen to NV pricing if AMD disappears. 8800GTX, 280, 780, 780Ti, Titan and selling mid-range 680/980 at $500-550 is already proof that when AMD is behind and/or less competitive, NV raises prices.

Starting with Kepler, we can already see that NV now makes several high-end cards in the same generation (bi-furcating a generation), something NV has never done as it would be akin to releasing a GTX460 1GB as a 480, then delaying and launching a 480 as a 580. Maxwell is repeating this strategy. The "old" NV would have labelled GM200 as a 980 and 980 would have been a $249/299 GTX960Ti. You can even see how this impacted NV's entire line with 960 being the weakest x60 product released by NV in the last 8+ years.
 
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ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
145
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knowing nvidia and what they charged for titan? flagship gpus would be 1k+ tier 2 would be 700$ or more, tier 3 would be 400 to 500$ the super chips that came with bragging rights like titan would be 1500$ or more if NV can help it why not? people who sees green all the time would still buy them up.

think of the NV prices before the 290 + x dropped. that was messed up. think of the current resale prices of used nv cards, they are still messed up.

It doesnt matter what a niche product targetted for DP compute will sell for. It only matters what will carry the volume in the optimal profit ratio curve.

The prices doesnt seem to have changed to me if you remember the external costs. HD7970 was 550$, GTX680 was 500$, 290X was 550$. GTX980 is 550$ for example. Its quite clear the market cant carry higher prices on volume products. The GTX970 for example wasnt released at 330$ for their green eyes sake. Just as the 399$ 290 when it was released.
 

railven

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2010
6,604
561
126
Has the price cuts gone live? What I'm seeing on Newegg isn't very appetizing.
 

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
126
Has the price cuts gone live? What I'm seeing on Newegg isn't very appetizing.

Not sure what you were expecting. The new MSRP for a 290X is $299; the BEST 290X, MSI Lightning is $299.
http://m.newegg.com/Product/index?itemnumber=14-127-787

Gigabyte G1 980 or EVGA Classified 980 are $600+.

This is literally 50-70% more performance on average over a 980 for the same price. Remember 780Ti was $699 November 2013 and a reference 290X was $549. How much did your 780 Lightning cost? Probably more than $450; and now one can get dual Sapphire Tri-X 290s for just $50-70 more!
 
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Owls

Senior member
Feb 22, 2006
735
0
76
If you are leaving just because of the ram issue, that is silly. It shows how out of touch with graphics you are. heh

It was not a big deal at all.

Are you seriously justifying misrepresentation? Intentional or not it is a big deal considering how nVidia has us over a barrel.

I say this as someone who has owned nVidia graphics cards for the most part.
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
What most defenders of this situation don't get is it came to light because PC gamers playing at 1080/1440/multi-monitor noticed issues like stuttering and poor performance in games. They then ran the synthetic VRAM apps to verify. If this issue didn't affect in-game performance in rare cases, it wouldn't be a big deal. While the performance in games for a 970 hasn't changed, the price/performance did. In the last 4 months 290/299X have fallen in price and gained performance relative to the 970 in modern titles, on average. What we have now is a $240-250 after-market 290 within 5% of a 970 at 1080p, and tied at 1440p and above. 290X is within 9-11% of a 980 only.

The VRAM issue only put 290/290X vs. 970/980 into the spotlight again and many are finally realizing that 970/980 no longer provide good price/performance that they did at launch. When I see that MSI Lightning 290X costs less than any 970, and you can buy almost 2 of them for the price of a 980, it's not even just about the VRAM issue, but highlights to me how NV charges huge premiums for its products. If most of the market is OK with paying these NV premiums, they will not care about the VRAM issue either since it means they would never consider AMD cards anyway.

For brand agnostic gamers, the way NV handled the 970 fiasco and their existing stance on 970/980 pricing is disappointing. If people defend NV's actions, it just continues to justify NV's pricing premiums and "a company that can do no wrong".

I am not defending Nvidia, but I must say, I do find the stance that their prices are unjustified rather one-sided and unrealistic.

They launched at prices more competitive than AMD's current generation lineup. That is a significant fact to bring up, as the 970 undercut AMD prices by a decent margin. What we are comparing now are post-cut-prices from AMD, and, I don't find it justified for Nvidia to drop prices. Do I want them to, and would everyone prefer they do? Sure, especially in light of recent events. That said, they are the newest product on the market. Companies cut their prices of older stock to compete with the new item, and Nvidia's sales have apparently given Nvidia justification that, no, in fact we don't need to cut our prices now that the competition cut theirs. And really, in no market have I ever seen the "underdog" cut prices to see the newer product from the dominant player also have the price cut.

It's backwards to assume Nvidia would, or even should. Would it be nice? Hell yes. But it won't happen. I don't think the 970 will even drop in price until new product from either company changes the performance and price benchmarks.


Now, in a more recent most, you described the Nvidia chip practice of going with their typical mid-range part, as fabricated, and launching it as their high-end brand to compete with the high-end product of AMD. I wish they wouldn't do this, but really, can you blame them? This is a market where they want to get the most money from the product. AMD is making great products, no lie, but until they challenge the very best Nvidia can produce (big chip vs big chip), then Nvidia can continue to coast along in this fashion. There is no market justification for Nvidia to launch their expensive to produce GM200 at the then going-rate for flagships around the $600 mark.

Don't get me wrong, I personally WANT them to do just that, I too am tired of this ho-hum Nvidia approach, but if I were in charge, intent on making money for my company, I cannot say I would make a different decision.

I do hope they will keep all future Maxwell chips in the 900 series and drop prices of the rest of their cards, and hopefully, if AMD comes out swinging with their 300 series, I think Nvidia will do just that.
 

ocre

Golden Member
Dec 26, 2008
1,594
7
81
It's just complete and total nonsense, as usual

RS suggesting that nvidia should have released the gtx980 at $250, where the 460 launched............

Hahahahaha

Surely anyone with reason can see the ramifications of such an act.

I guess the 339 gtx 970 was not damaging enough for AMD.
We will see about that when the next market share and earnings come out for AMD.

Then it will be quite clear why AMD prices are so low right now. If nvidia priced maxwell any better, they would be pushing the final knife stab, going for a kill.

Are we really suggesting the 980 should have been priced 250 since October?

Hahahhaaghahaa


Warning issued for member callout.

-Rvenger
 
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