[Hexus]Russia building 'Baikal processor' to replace AMD and Intel chips

[gevorg]

Silly paranoia? LOL! What NSA can do today was not even in the wet dreams of KGB.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_global_surveillance_disclosures_(2013–present)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_ANT_catalog

 

[ShintaiDK]

NSA being caught doing it just shows they are bad at it

 

[Rakehellion]

2) American products are defective by design (nope! unless you're talking about fighter jets)

http://arstechnica.com/security/201...routers-lets-attacker-reset-router-get-admin/

 

[Exophase]

Silly paranoia? LOL! What NSA can do today was not even in the wet dreams of KGB.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_global_surveillance_disclosures_(2013–present)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_ANT_catalog

So please explain what you think the NSA put into Intel CPUs to let you gain access to them. Speculation about weaknesses in the RNG's ability to deliver results as random as they should be doesn't qualify. Do you see a device that lets you gain access to ubiquitous CPUs through a pure hardware backdoor on the ANT catalog you linked to? Because I don't.

Just because NSA wants to have access to everything and has no moral problems trying to gain access to everything does not mean that they do have access to everything.

 

[TuxDave]

http://arstechnica.com/security/201...routers-lets-attacker-reset-router-get-admin/

I'll admit that I don't understand half the mumbo-jumbo in that article other that there's a vulnerability found in some router. You're probably taking this article as an intentional vulnerability although I don't see any accusations along those lines.

Going back to the post I responded to, I still generally disagree that American products are defective by design for US Gov't access. You can find exceptions but that would be the exception that proves the rule.

 

[Exophase]

I'll admit that I don't understand half the mumbo-jumbo in that article other that there's a vulnerability found in some router. You're probably taking this article as an intentional vulnerability although I don't see any accusations along those lines.

I'm sure it's a deliberate backdoor in the sense that it was put there so people from the company could diagnose devices when the user forgot the password (without having to wipe the configuration first). IF you could only access it via the wired ports that isn't that big of a deal, since that's as good as being able to reset the device from a physical button.

But the later finding that these ports were internet facing sometimes sounds more like a grave mistake or left in for spying.

 

[TuxDave]

I'm sure it's a deliberate backdoor in the sense that it was put there so people from the company could diagnose devices when the user forgot the password (without having to wipe the configuration first). IF you could only access it via the wired ports that isn't that big of a deal, since that's as good as being able to reset the device from a physical button.

But the later finding that these ports were internet facing sometimes sounds more like a grave mistake or left in for spying.

This is how I read it. It looks like someone was trying to use "security through obscurity" for this debug hook and this was finally exploited by the user. It's still not obvious to me that this vulnerability was provided on purpose to the US Gov't since there are not any hooks to guarantee that ONLY the US Gov't can access it. The US gov't would vulnerable to foreign attacks due to this as well wouldn't it?

 

[ViRGE]

While this decision by the Russian government is inexorably linked to politics, I'd like to remind you guys that this is the CPU technology forum, not P&N. The discussion needs to remain technically oriented, otherwise this thread will be closed.

-Thanks
ViRGE

 

[DrMrLordX]

Yes, they've taken interest in it - as an alternative to using Windows to run Windows software. Take out the x86 part of the equation and it loses all of its appeal.

Plus, your links show that Russian officials were asked for money and had ReactOS presented to them, which is at least somewhat different from taking a personal interest in it.

We'll see how it pans out, then (but only if we watch very carefully - how often does the subject of Russian government computer OSes come up?). At the face of it, it seems odd to me to encourage the widespread adoption of Baikal when they have already made certain commitments to an OS that currently only runs on x86 hardware and supports x86 binaries.

Of course, that makes me wonder what the point of ReactOS for ARM is/was in the first place, unless it is to use a compatibility layer to run x86 apps on ARM equipment. Regardless, it doesn't work yet.

Well, I expect Baikal to do better because it should be less of a joke than Loongson. If it's really cheap it's because it sucks. I don't think very many are used outside of cases like rms.

I expect that the market value of Baikal will be somewhat determined by overall performance versus current Intel/AMD offerings. Other price pressures, such as availability, will determine the final price.

It will be interesting to see exactly how well production proceeds for Baikal. If it is enough of a success, maybe it will start showing up in devices outside Russia as a competitor to Loongson or various VIA products.

 

[magomago]

Doesn't matter if Russia has no capacity to FAB. The point is that they own the design. If you own a million systems, have the design, and are worried that you have back doors, then you can hire your own scientists to look at; it and see if they find something.

If you don't have access the design, then perhaps the design has a BD built in and you have no clue.

I wouldn't worry about going to a foreign partner to get it fabbed; quietly sneaking in a backdoor on an existing design to fab sounds impractical unless you have an army and somehow modify the design such that nothing changes for the chip, the backdoor isn't visibly noticeable, and somehow its insertion doesn't change the timeline meaningfully,and Russian scientists don't' take the produced product and assess it against the design to see if anything is funky...like I said, impractical.

IMO backdoors and bugs from software is where the real threat it.

 

[Exophase]

We'll see how it pans out, then (but only if we watch very carefully - how often does the subject of Russian government computer OSes come up?). At the face of it, it seems odd to me to encourage the widespread adoption of Baikal when they have already made certain commitments to an OS that currently only runs on x86 hardware and supports x86 binaries.

As per your links, the president gave a visit to a highschool where a ReactOS developer just happened to be a student and got a totally impromptu presentation, where the student also asked for money. The president said he was impressed and he'd think about it. How do you equate that to the Russian government having made commitments to use ReactOS?

It's no surprise ReactOS would look impressive at a glance, since it purports to run Windows programs without Windows which would save the government a lot of money in licenses and would give them more control over and ability to audit the OS. From a simple visit alone you wouldn't be able to determine important things like what its broad compatibility is like, so it figures that they'd say they had a good impression and would look into it but not commit to anything right then. This all happened a couple years ago, things have changed politically and events have happened with the US that I guess made Russia more reluctant to use x86 hardware than they were back then - not to mention, two years ago you couldn't license a 64-bit ARM core.

Of course, that makes me wonder what the point of ReactOS for ARM is/was in the first place, unless it is to use a compatibility layer to run x86 apps on ARM equipment. Regardless, it doesn't work yet.

There's more to the OS than the ability to run x86 Windows people, so there's bound to be someone who will want to run it on ARM devices just for the rest of the OS experience. Probably just to tinker around with and nothing very serious, hence why it's gotten so little attention.

I expect that the market value of Baikal will be somewhat determined by overall performance versus current Intel/AMD offerings. Other price pressures, such as availability, will determine the final price.

This is assuming it'll even be made available off the shelf, since a lot of stuff made under government contract isn't. At the very least I think there'll be some delay. Either way they'll probably get a ton of money from the government, not just for the order but for the development.

It will be interesting to see exactly how well production proceeds for Baikal. If it is enough of a success, maybe it will start showing up in devices outside Russia as a competitor to Loongson or various VIA products.

I doubt it'd be very competitive outside of Russia, where there will already be other 8 and 16 core Cortex-A57 SoCs. Like the ones AMD announced.

 

[shady28]

I'll admit that I don't understand half the mumbo-jumbo in that article other that there's a vulnerability found in some router. You're probably taking this article as an intentional vulnerability although I don't see any accusations along those lines.

Going back to the post I responded to, I still generally disagree that American products are defective by design for US Gov't access. You can find exceptions but that would be the exception that proves the rule.

http://www.dailytech.com/Report+NSA...riminals+to+Spy+on+Americans/article34005.htm

"Among the most shocking are reports that the NSA routinely intercepted consumer electronics shipments from "partners" like Amazon.com, Inc. (AMZN) (which coincidentally is vying for CIA contracts and lobbying for more spying behind closed doors) and installing James Bond-esque devices to spy on Americans. "

"One such program is dubbed "COTTONMOUTH" and involves the installation of a malicious USB "hardware implant". Other programs reportedly involved the installation of malicious firmware or software (malware). COTTONMOUTH was among the expansions of the spying program by President Barrack Obama (D), having been instituted in 2009."



http://www.slate.com/articles/news_..._lied_to_congress_about_nsa_surveillance.html

"Back at an open congressional hearing on March 12, Sen. Ron Wyden (D-Ore.) asked Clapper, “Does the NSA collect any type of data at all on millions or hundreds of millions of Americans?” Clapper replied, “No sir … not wittingly.” As we all now know, he was lying."



They basically get away with this stuff because it's so unbelievably audacious, and common sense says it should be incredibly illegal. Because of that, no one believes it. But over and over, it's shown to be true, and they are shown to be liars.

For some reason, most people just remember the lies, not the fact that they were lied to.

 

[Exophase]

shady28, how does any of that suggest that all USA products are as a general rule designed with backdoors for the NSA? Especially where it doesn't really seem feasible. Do you have a technical explanation for how to put a backdoor purely in a CPU without embedded transceivers meant to talk to the outside world?

 

[Madpacket]

shady28, how does any of that suggest that all USA products are as a general rule designed with backdoors for the NSA? Especially where it doesn't really seem feasible. Do you have a technical explanation for how to put a backdoor purely in a CPU without embedded transceivers meant to talk to the outside world?

Of course they don't implant spy devices in ALL products, that would cost to much money. They spy where it makes sense to and where it is most effective.

It's also possible and probable if NSA has logic in Intel CPU's to exfiltrate data, we would not be able to see it. What organization has the tools to reverse engineer a 22nm billion transistor CPU to look for such logic?

Hmm, that gets me thinking. If I were designing a backdoor in a CPU die I would want the logic to be rewritable in case of possible eventual detection. Design the logic to rewrite itself to look innocuous and only activate if instructed by command and control.



Since no one can read the mod note 6 posts up, we're done here
-ViRGE