High DPI mice not as useless as most say?

[Ph0b0s]

So always when I read comments and reviews about the recent mice with high DPI's (above 4000) they say 'A DPI that high is useless the cursor and sight in a game move around too fast, you have to turn the DPI down a lot for the speed to be manageable. So there is no point to buying a high DPI mouse, especially of low sensitivity gamers....'

Now I'm like a low sensitivity set-up, I have a big mouse pad and like to move my hand a decent distance on the pad to get a smallish movement on the screen. I also have a 5700 DPI mouse which I use at 5700 DPI all the time. I just don't understand the comments above. Why do they turn down the DPI when you can just decrease either the windows cursor speed (mines at 3 notches out of the 11) or turn down the mouse speed in the game.

The mouse seems more accurate to me with the DPI set all the way up and the windows or game mouse speed set all the way down, rather that turning the DPI down and leaving the mouse speed settings the same.

Am I missing something or are most people reviewing mice a bit dumb. Or are they determined to not like mice that have a higher DPI because they cost a bit more and they want to make a case that older cheaper mice are still the better?

Any thoughts. What is this happy high DPI mouse owning, low sensitivity gamer missing?

 

[Banzai042]

While I don't have a high DPI mouse with adjustable sensitivity my thinking has been along the same lines as yours. The best use I've heard of for these adjustable mice is sniping in an FPS, fast motion at max DPI so you can turn around quickly if you need to, then bump the sensitivity down when you're zoomed in so you can get the headshot easier makes sense to me

 

[CurseTheSky]

I'm also a big fan of high-DPI mice. I have a hard time telling the difference between, say, 4000 DPI and 3200 DPI or 2000 DPI and 1600 DPI (cursor speed adjusted accordingly), but I can definitely tell a difference between 3200 DPI and 1600 DPI.

I'm a high sensitivity gamer, though. I use about a quarter of my mouse pad at most. Moving the mouse 1" goes about half way across the 1920x1200 screen.

 

[murphyslabrat]

I definitely prefer a DPI of 1600 for my mice, any more and it starts getting unmanageable, and any less and I find myself moving ALL over the desk, and those 180 shots become impossible.

Now, this is not to say that those high DPI mice are useless. While some people genuinely like the high DPI settings, instead of just using them to be cool (like I did at first, before I realized how much it made me suck), but the best part is that they are made possible by faster sensors. While past a certain point it is still superfluous, a sensor capable of 5700 DPI will perform smoother and more accurately on a 1600 DPI setting than would a sensor with a maximum speed of 1600. I am not good enough to notice the difference between the Sidewinder x6 and my Rosewill RM-8500 (laptop mouse, limited to 1600 DPI), so I don't know how big of a thing it is. Playing COD4, on deathmatch servers, I am consistently at the top of the scoreboard, even against people who wall-hack, and I use a $25 wireless laptop mouse that barely fits my hand.

If you want to be more technical, the sensor is a tiny camera, that takes pictures as fast as it can. The controller will measure the magnitude of offset between pictures, and then send the result back to the computer. The higher the resolution of the picture, the greater the magnitude of difference will be between pictures, as they capture more data. However, if you turn down the DPI, it will allow the camera to process more pictures in a given timeframe, resulting in more more detailed response. You end up being more accurate by turning down the resolution on the mouse. The alternative, being to reduce the speed in windows or in-game, would actually create a not-1-to-1 movement between the mouse input and the cursor movement, thereby reducing accuracy over just leaving well-enough alone.

Another consideration: from the Anandtech's article on triple-buffering vs double-buffering, most humans will only notice latency above 10% of their natural reflexes, so in order to notice anything you would have to be already incredibly fast. So, yes you are missing something, but still, yes, most reviewers are stupid (or, at least, writing for stupid people to read), but the difference is absolutely insignificant.
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3591&p=3 (I think that's the one)

Bottom line: do not buy a mouse for a high DPI. I repeat, do not buy a mouse for a high DPI. One of the best mice you can get for gaming on a budget would be the Microsoft Intelimouse. I am perfectly serious there. Just do what you feel comfortable with, though, personally, I think the more technically appropriate action would be to turn down the DPI on the mouse.

 

[billyb0b]

My Razer DeathAdder does insane DPI and it does help me out playing fps games.

 

[bunnyfubbles]

Because DPI doesn't work the way you think it does. DPI stand for "dots per inch" but what is happening is the mouse is reporting counts to the computer, which is why some companies advertise the same spec as CPI, or counts per inch.

If you're turning down pointer speed in windows or sensitivity in drivers or game, you're essentially throwing away counts by software division. Ideally you want 1:1 tracking with 0 software interpolation, however seeing as how division is far preferable (to the point where its ultimately negligible) to multiplication (which results in horrendous stair-stepping tracking) your situation is ok, but still, you're not getting more accurate or smoother tracking with 5700dpi and turning down windows pointer speed (if it feels like it, its placebo effect).

 

[terentenet]

I can say it's not placebo. I have a 30" 2560x1600 monitor. I use the mouse (Razer Mamba) at 5600dpi, windows sensitivity at 3 notches. Lower than that, it will be too slow for me. Any faster would be uncontrollable.
To move the mouse 1 inch and get X amount of movement on the screen, I can set the mouse like so:
1. 5600dpi & 3rd notch in windows cp
2. 3200dpi & 5th notch in windows cp
Photoshoping along, I can tell you that the mouse is much more precise in 5600dpi & 3rd notch than the other setting (3200 and 5th).
In 3200dpi and 5th notch, while the mouse moves roughly the same amount of pixels, it's much more grainy. Moving it very slowly, you can see the pointer staying still then jumping 2-3 pixels at once.
That doesn't happen at 5600dpi on 3rd notch, where it's much more smooth. Not perfectly smooth, but closer to a smooth movement. I'd say it moves 1-2 pixels at once. You can't judge this until you try to unite 2 lines, 1 pixel wide each. Play with the various settings, you will notice just as I did that high DPI count and lower Windows sensitivity does the trick.

@bunnyfubbles: I don't think any of us is qualified enough to say what the notches in Windows cpl are for... While you say that when you're turning down the pointer speed in Windows or in a game you're throwing away counts, I will speak my mind:
- Native mouse setting in Windows should be 1 notch for 1:1 mouse - cursor movement. Turning up the sensitivity in Windows or games will amplify the hardware counts, therefore making up for a grainy cursor movement.

In conclusion, I ask Razer, Logitech and Microsoft: bring me the 15000dpi mouse; I want it!

 

[bunnyfubbles]

I can say it's not placebo. I have a 30" 2560x1600 monitor. I use the mouse (Razer Mamba) at 5600dpi, windows sensitivity at 3 notches. Lower than that, it will be too slow for me. Any faster would be uncontrollable.
To move the mouse 1 inch and get X amount of movement on the screen, I can set the mouse like so:
1. 5600dpi & 3rd notch in windows cp
2. 3200dpi & 5th notch in windows cp
Photoshoping along, I can tell you that the mouse is much more precise in 5600dpi & 3rd notch than the other setting (3200 and 5th).
In 3200dpi and 5th notch, while the mouse moves roughly the same amount of pixels, it's much more grainy. Moving it very slowly, you can see the pointer staying still then jumping 2-3 pixels at once.
That doesn't happen at 5600dpi on 3rd notch, where it's much more smooth. Not perfectly smooth, but closer to a smooth movement. I'd say it moves 1-2 pixels at once. You can't judge this until you try to unite 2 lines, 1 pixel wide each. Play with the various settings, you will notice just as I did that high DPI count and lower Windows sensitivity does the trick.

@bunnyfubbles: I don't think any of us is qualified enough to say what the notches in Windows cpl are for... While you say that when you're turning down the pointer speed in Windows or in a game you're throwing away counts, I will speak my mind:
- Native mouse setting in Windows should be 1 notch for 1:1 mouse - cursor movement. Turning up the sensitivity in Windows or games will amplify the hardware counts, therefore making up for a grainy cursor movement.

In conclusion, I ask Razer, Logitech and Microsoft: bring me the 15000dpi mouse; I want it!

No, it is a well known fact that the 6 setting (of the 11 notches) is 1:1 in Windows, its placebo. Pixel skipping is most likely due to software interpolation, especially when, IIRC, the 5 setting uses an odd divisor.

Super duper high DPI mice won't be useful for increased precision until we get higher DPI monitors used with resolution independent software.

Otherwise the super high DPI mice are best used by setting it up with a middling DPI setting so you can setup your DPI buttons to have states you can quickly jump to should you need more or less sensitivity for increased precision (lower dpi) or higher speed (higher dpi). For instance I set up my Lachesis to 1000dpi by default so I could jump up to 2000 and 4000 dpi and lower down to 500 and 250dpi and have perfect doubling increments.

My current mouse of choice is a Razer Abyssus and use it on its 450dpi setting and its no less precise than any of my other (many) mice.

 

[JoshGuru7]

I use a Sidewinder X8 on 4000 DPI by default and hit the 1000 DPI toggle under the mouse wheel for sniping situations. This works really well for me but I do have my windows sensitivity set in the middle. I've never tried a 5700 DPI device and will admit to being skeptical that they are measurably superior to 4000 DPI tracking in real world situations.

 

[terentenet]

I don't know about you, but I have a smoother mouse movement on higher DPI and lower windows sensitivity. Is there a Microsoft technical paper that documents the 6th notch? I'd like to see it.

 

[Ph0b0s]

Great just the kind of discussion I was trying to start. Btw I'm in the turning the windows cursor speed down and DPI up seems more acurate camp.

Also Joshguru7. I don't think thick you would notice much of a difference between 4000 DPI and 5700 DPI mice as the increase in DPI as a factor is not that much. I think it needs to be double for it to be noticeable. So I probably won't get a new mouse again for DPI reasons until they reach 11000 DPI, if ever they ever do....

 

[terentenet]

@Ph0b0s: They sure will come out with 11k DPI mice and I will be one of the first to get one. That would bring me colser to my goal, very high DPI and 1st notch in Windows sensitivity. As I said in my previous post, I don't see any downside to turning down the Windows sensitivity and turning up the DPI. It seems more smooth and precise to me that way. Needless to say, my skill in FPS increases when I do that.
Then again, the others might be right as well. 6th notch may not be a myth and perhaps we are interpolating with the 3rd notch. It's a matter of personal preference after all...

 

[Ph0b0s]

Also just found a much quoted mouse optimisation guide here which mentions the 6th notch being best idea. "http://www.overclock.net/computer-peripherals/173255-cs-s-mouse-optimization-guide.html"

But it seems to say that the 6th notch is best because of bugs in Windows XP mouse tracking at other settings. Certainly I saw the same things metioned with XP x64 when I was running it, and so I got shot of it.

Win 7 does not seem to have the same issues when setting cursor speeds to non default settings. After Win XP x64 I always check this now. I cannot find anything from microsoft on this though. But I think that maybe the details in that guide for an old game need to be updated....

 

[PieIsAwesome]

Yes, you are right, and all those people who make those comments you described are indeed dumb.

Increasing DPI isn't for increasing pointer speed, its for increasing precision.

EDIT: Oh crap, I thought I was in Off Topic. . .

 

[Ben90]

I don't know about you, but I have a smoother mouse movement on higher DPI and lower windows sensitivity. Is there a Microsoft technical paper that documents the 6th notch? I'd like to see it.

I don't have the link on hand, but yes the 6th notch is 1:1

 

[terentenet]

@ben90: I know, I've been reading about it and it seems it's true. 6th notch is indeed 1:1; but I have also been reading that this 1:1 mouse ratio is a thing of Windows XP, where mouse DPI/sensitivity ratio is calculated in such a way that ratios other than 1:1 give odd results.
I have never had a problem running my Mamba at 5600dpi and 3rd notch in 7 Ultimate 64bit. No odd results, I can draw "perfect" circles with the mouse, it's 100% controllable and it follows my hand movement accurately.
It's very fast, but I like it that way. For me, I want a 180 turn within 2" of mouse movement. I guess I like it that fast because of the long nights of LAN Quake3 where I only play railgun and need to defend my back all the time. Jumping and strafing while doing 360's in the air requires absolute resolution and precision and 5600dpi does the trick.

 

[bunnyfubbles]

Increasing DPI isn't for increasing pointer speed, its for increasing precision.

You have it backwards. Super high DPI mice certainly have more precise sensors, but that doesn't mean it will be more precise in its translating your hand movement to cursor movement because of the cursor's relation to pixels on the screen. We need higher resolution monitors with resolution independent OSes/Apps before that happens.

For now, DPI definitely has more to do with pointer speed than anything else.

@ben90: I know, I've been reading about it and it seems it's true. 6th notch is indeed 1:1; but I have also been reading that this 1:1 mouse ratio is a thing of Windows XP, where mouse DPI/sensitivity ratio is calculated in such a way that ratios other than 1:1 give odd results.
I have never had a problem running my Mamba at 5600dpi and 3rd notch in 7 Ultimate 64bit. No odd results, I can draw "perfect" circles with the mouse, it's 100% controllable and it follows my hand movement accurately.
It's very fast, but I like it that way. For me, I want a 180 turn within 2" of mouse movement. I guess I like it that fast because of the long nights of LAN Quake3 where I only play railgun and need to defend my back all the time. Jumping and strafing while doing 360's in the air requires absolute resolution and precision and 5600dpi does the trick.

The more you add your opinion to this thread, the more it just sounds like you're trying to justify why you spent $130 on a mouse. Of course you won't have problems when you're dividing the counts reported by the mouse, any rounding errors are going to be negligible or non existent, however a mouse with less DPI and running the same speed at a windows 6 setting will be just as accurate and precise. If you're going to justify that mouse, do so on its wireless operation and form factor, its sensor is nothing special (and when we consider some of the problems of its Philips Twin-Eye sensor, it might actually be a weakness)

 

[0roo0roo]

? things are always rounded when translating...a higher dpi mouse will be more precise.

 

[bunnyfubbles]

? things are always rounded when translating...a higher dpi mouse will be more precise.

not if there is 0 interpolation on the other mouse

 

[terentenet]

I'm not trying to justify my purchase, again, I will pay more than $300 right now for a mouse with more than 10k dpi.
I simply don't like how the mouse feels on 3200 / 6th notch, no matter the 0 interpolation. To my hand, the interpolation feels better, so, 5600 / 3rd notch for me. It's what I've been using for the past year problems free.

 

[Ben90]

@ben90: I know, I've been reading about it and it seems it's true. 6th notch is indeed 1:1; but I have also been reading that this 1:1 mouse ratio is a thing of Windows XP, where mouse DPI/sensitivity ratio is calculated in such a way that ratios other than 1:1 give odd results.
I have never had a problem running my Mamba at 5600dpi and 3rd notch in 7 Ultimate 64bit. No odd results, I can draw "perfect" circles with the mouse, it's 100% controllable and it follows my hand movement accurately.
It's very fast, but I like it that way. For me, I want a 180 turn within 2" of mouse movement. I guess I like it that fast because of the long nights of LAN Quake3 where I only play railgun and need to defend my back all the time. Jumping and strafing while doing 360's in the air requires absolute resolution and precision and 5600dpi does the trick.

OMG LOL, you've essentially cut your "true DPI" down to 1400 using #3, but you want a mouse with a higher DPI? I bet your Quake3 sensitivity crosses the 1:<1 threshold now since we cut the total DPI down from windows sensitivity. Care to share what your sensitivity is so i can call you out for not knowing what your talking about because im nearly 100% positive your pointer is having to extrapolate if your doing 180s in 2" @ 1400.

 

[bunnyfubbles]

If you play better after spending $300 on a mouse simply because you spent $300 on it and feel that its actually providing you a tangible advantage solely because of its price then I guess its worth it even if it isn't providing anything other than a placebo boon.

 

[Modelworks]

A big factor besides the sensor is the image the sensor is viewing and the texture. A low dpi mouse will perform better on a diffuse pattern than a high dpi mouse on a smooth surface. I can make a low dpi mouse perform great just by changing the surface it is viewing.

 

[guy93]

I am on a MX518 and to do a 180 degree turn in CS:S on a resolution of 1920x1080, I need to move my mouse across 17 inches on my Steelseries QCK+.