High fructose corn syrup... er, I mean "Cornsugar."

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QuantumPion

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2005
6,010
1
76
absorption rates are irrelevant, the fact that it's in EVERYTHING, and i do mean EVERYTHING - is why it's bad for you. Imagine taking a spoonful of table sugar every time you ate something.

This. There is anything wrong with HFCS (which is basically just sugar made from corn instead of sugar cane). The problem is just consuming too much sweetener period.
 

sourceninja

Diamond Member
Mar 8, 2005
8,805
65
91
I don't care about the health risks. If I did I wouldn't be drinking soda and eating candy bars. What I care about is the taste.

I've done blind taste tests and I can always tell the difference between sugar and HFCS. Sugar finishes clean and is 'less sweet' then HFCS. Give me drinks and candy with real sugar in them any day.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
25,476
3,976
126
Links aren't hard to find from peer reviewed scientific articles for everything I said. It isn't P&N, so I didn't delve into an array of links for everything. I could post dozens of links, but I'll just start with a couple of recent studies:

http://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/content/70/15/6368.abstract

Importantly, fructose and glucose metabolism are quite different; in comparison with glucose, fructose induces thiamine-dependent transketolase flux and is preferentially metabolized via the nonoxidative pentose phosphate pathway to synthesize nucleic acids and increase uric acid production. These findings show that cancer cells can readily metabolize fructose to increase proliferation.

http://www.jci.org/articles/view/37385

consumption increases plasma concentrations of fasting sdLDL, oxidized LDL, and postprandial RLP-C and RLP-TG in older, overweight/obese men and women, whereas glucose consumption does not. These changes may be associated with increased risk of cardiovascular disease

Consumption of fructose at 25% of energy requirements with an ad libitum diet decreased glucose tolerance and insulin sensitivity in older overweight/obese adults compared with glucose consumption.
There you have increased risk for cancer, heart disease, and diabetes. Need I continue?
 
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Capt Caveman

Lifer
Jan 30, 2005
34,543
651
126
absorption rates are irrelevant, the fact that it's in EVERYTHING, and i do mean EVERYTHING - is why it's bad for you. Imagine taking a spoonful of table sugar every time you ate something.

If it wasn't then sugar would be used instead, let me guess you would start bitching about sugar then?
 

frostedflakes

Diamond Member
Mar 1, 2005
7,925
1
81
If HFCS was banned the companies would probably do just that... (put sugar in everything...)
This. If anything they might add more, because imported sugar is dirt cheap, or at least it would be if we got rid of the ridiculous tariffs on it that favor our domestic farmers and HFCS. Pretty sure I've read that if the tariffs were gone, importing cane sugar would be cheaper than domestically-produced HFCS.

Have never understood the irrational fear of HFCS. Chemically it may be slightly worse for you than cane sugar, but let's face it, the real problem is people eating too much, especially sugar-rich products like candy and soda. I can't even stand non-diet soda, for example, it's sickeningly sweet. That said, I'm not a fan at all of the tariffs on cane sugar and all the other handouts to our domestic farming industry. We should just get rid of them and level the playing field.
 

rudder

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
19,441
86
91
If people would spend 5 extra minutes at the grocery store looking whats actually in the products they buy and choosing wisely about what they stuff in their mouth this would not be an issue.

The same goes for partially hydrogenated oils. That crap will kill you. HFCS or PH is a no go.
 
Mar 11, 2004
23,261
5,704
146
Links aren't hard to find from peer reviewed scientific articles for everything I said. It isn't P&N, so I didn't delve into an array of links for everything. I could post dozens of links, but I'll just start with a couple of recent studies:

http://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/content/70/15/6368.abstract



http://www.jci.org/articles/view/37385


There you have increased risk for cancer, heart disease, and diabetes. Need I continue?

The important thing is for people to understand that just because its called high fructose, it does not mean its worse than sucrose, or rather that both are roughly equally bad in regards to fructose consumption.

If it wasn't then sugar would be used instead, let me guess you would start bitching about sugar then?

I would hope they would, but I'm actually doubtful because they prefer to use HFCS as a scapegoat. Instead of actually really learning how to eat well, they'd rather blame it on whatever new boogeyman the health food industry can come up with (MSG is another good one). The worst part is this gets lumped in with legitimate stuff like limiting trans fats, so it ends up polarizing most people into either buying all into it or rejecting all of it.

There are legitimate reasons to be anti HFCS, or more specifically the corn industry, but that's no reason to let them mislead about other aspects.
 

Gibsons

Lifer
Aug 14, 2001
12,530
35
91
absorption rates are irrelevant, the fact that it's in EVERYTHING, and i do mean EVERYTHING - is why it's bad for you. Imagine taking a spoonful of table sugar every time you ate something.

Absorption rates are extremely important. It's why complex carbs aren't as fattening as simple sugars.
 
Mar 11, 2004
23,261
5,704
146
This. If anything they might add more, because imported sugar is dirt cheap, or at least it would be if we got rid of the ridiculous tariffs on it that favor our domestic farmers and HFCS. Pretty sure I've read that if the tariffs were gone, importing cane sugar would be cheaper than domestically-produced HFCS.

Have never understood the irrational fear of HFCS. Chemically it may be slightly worse for you than cane sugar, but let's face it, the real problem is people eating too much, especially sugar-rich products like candy and soda. I can't even stand non-diet soda, for example, it's sickeningly sweet. That said, I'm not a fan at all of the tariffs on cane sugar and all the other handouts to our domestic farming industry. We should just get rid of them and level the playing field.

Without the tariffs, it would be cheaper by a large margin to the point where even industries that are heavily focused on HFCS (such as soft drinks) would likely be able to lower costs by retooling. Of course, that assumes no response from the corn industry which would basically have to drop prices, possibly to their cost just so they can prop up demand for corn products as leverage for keeping prices higher elsewhere.

I need to look into what things have happened more recently. A couple of years back, there was some mention that via new trade deals with Mexico, that cane sugar could possibly be let in that way. It was enough to spook the US sugar industry to lobby the government to focus on using their sugar cane for ethanol production (which would give them consistent demand as well as let them keep prices fairly high). It could have pretty big impact, as it'd be a double whammy to the corn industry (they'd lose out on using corn for ethanol production and cane sugar being more competitive price wise).

To top it off, sugar cane is a much better source for making ethanol than corn is anyways. The most recent thing I'd heard is that the government was going to lower (there was actually quite a bit of movement to get rid of it altogether) the ethanol subsidies. I'm not sure what that would end up doing (could actually be good as I assume corn industry is the biggest benefactor, and in a more even market, cane sugar ethanol would almost certainly win out, but other tech, such as bio-cellulosic ethanol production would probably lose out as well).
 

sactoking

Diamond Member
Sep 24, 2007
7,582
2,817
136
On topic, I'm going to go SAT-style here-

Corn Syrup : Corn Sugar :: Prunes : Dried Plums

You can spend the money on rebranding your product if you'd like, but understand that it's pretty much a waste as people know what your shit really is.
 
Mar 11, 2004
23,261
5,704
146
On topic, I'm going to go SAT-style here-

Corn Syrup : Corn Sugar :: Prunes : Dried Plums

You can spend the money on rebranding your product if you'd like, but understand that it's pretty much a waste as people know what your shit really is.

I agree, but let's be honest, the average person really doesn't know jackshit about HFCS. They just hear/read that its so bad.

I'm a bit mixed on this, as I think them changing it to corn sugar is actually more informative for the average consumer, but its kinda pathetic to try to whitewash it, although its not their fault that some people basically vandalized it, so I can't fault them for it either.

What's sad, is, instead of it causing people to actually learn about it, this will just make them look bad and give the anti-HFCS nuts more fodder.
 
Dec 26, 2007
11,782
2
76
Ahh, the irrational fear of High Fructose Corn Syrup.

Read up (along with the references):
http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4157

You should read up as well

http://www.reuters.com/article/idAFN0210830520100802

Tumor cells fed both glucose and fructose used the two sugars in two different ways, the team at the University of California Los Angeles found.

They said their finding, published in the journal Cancer Research, may help explain other studies that have linked fructose intake with pancreatic cancer, one of the deadliest cancer types.

"These findings show that cancer cells can readily metabolize fructose to increase proliferation," Dr. Anthony Heaney of UCLA's Jonsson Cancer Center and colleagues wrote.

"They have major significance for cancer patients given dietary refined fructose consumption, and indicate that efforts to reduce refined fructose intake or inhibit fructose-mediated actions may disrupt cancer growth."

HFCS is a new creation in biological terms. The human body has not had access to it through it's entire effective evolution since it's only been around for a handful of generations. I would much prefer to stick to the "real" sugar if I need to sweeten something.

Then again, I would rather eliminate all HFCS from my diet in addition to most sweeteners and artificially processed foods.
 
Oct 16, 1999
10,490
4
0
I agree, but let's be honest, the average person really doesn't know jackshit about HFCS. They just hear/read that its so bad.

I'm a bit mixed on this, as I think them changing it to corn sugar is actually more informative for the average consumer, but its kinda pathetic to try to whitewash it, although its not their fault that some people basically vandalized it, so I can't fault them for it either.

What's sad, is, instead of it causing people to actually learn about it, this will just make them look bad and give the anti-HFCS nuts more fodder.

Actually, "corn sugar" has traditionally been something else:
http://www.amazon.com/Corn-Sugar-1lb.../dp/B000MBW7IK
Dextrose is something other than HFCS. This alone should kill the renaming attempt.
 
Mar 11, 2004
23,261
5,704
146
You should read up as well

http://www.reuters.com/article/idAFN0210830520100802



HFCS is a new creation in biological terms. The human body has not had access to it through it's entire effective evolution since it's only been around for a handful of generations. I would much prefer to stick to the "real" sugar if I need to sweeten something.

Then again, I would rather eliminate all HFCS from my diet in addition to most sweeteners and artificially processed foods.

I'm not sure if you're using that article as commentary about HFCS being bad, but sucrose isn't any better as far as fructose intake, so consuming the same in real sugar is not going to be any better for you in regards to that study.

Actually, "corn sugar" has traditionally been something else:
http://www.amazon.com/Corn-Sugar-1lb.../dp/B000MBW7IK
Dextrose is something other than HFCS. This alone should kill the renaming attempt.

D'oh, good point. They should change it to fructose infused corn sweetener or something. Actually that wouldn't work as it seems like they want to get away from the negative fructose connotations while also making the similarity to sugar more.
 
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frostedflakes

Diamond Member
Mar 1, 2005
7,925
1
81
Without the tariffs, it would be cheaper by a large margin to the point where even industries that are heavily focused on HFCS (such as soft drinks) would likely be able to lower costs by retooling. Of course, that assumes no response from the corn industry which would basically have to drop prices, possibly to their cost just so they can prop up demand for corn products as leverage for keeping prices higher elsewhere.

I need to look into what things have happened more recently. A couple of years back, there was some mention that via new trade deals with Mexico, that cane sugar could possibly be let in that way. It was enough to spook the US sugar industry to lobby the government to focus on using their sugar cane for ethanol production (which would give them consistent demand as well as let them keep prices fairly high). It could have pretty big impact, as it'd be a double whammy to the corn industry (they'd lose out on using corn for ethanol production and cane sugar being more competitive price wise).

To top it off, sugar cane is a much better source for making ethanol than corn is anyways. The most recent thing I'd heard is that the government was going to lower (there was actually quite a bit of movement to get rid of it altogether) the ethanol subsidies. I'm not sure what that would end up doing (could actually be good as I assume corn industry is the biggest benefactor, and in a more even market, cane sugar ethanol would almost certainly win out, but other tech, such as bio-cellulosic ethanol production would probably lose out as well).
Yeah it's pretty incredible if you look at the EROI for Brazil's cane sugar ethanol program. IIRC some studies suggest it's about 8:1, in that area, whereas the EROI for corn ethanol in the US is maybe just slightly above 1:1. It's a really cool thing they have going down there. Of course we also have tariffs on ethanol imported from Brazil as well, so US consumers can't benefit from their cheap and efficient production. More protectionist BS to help prop up the domestic corn and ag industries, same as with the tariffs on imported sugar.
 
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Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,512
21
81
You should read up as well

http://www.reuters.com/article/idAFN0210830520100802

HFCS is a new creation in biological terms. The human body has not had access to it through it's entire effective evolution since it's only been around for a handful of generations. I would much prefer to stick to the "real" sugar if I need to sweeten something.

Then again, I would rather eliminate all HFCS from my diet in addition to most sweeteners and artificially processed foods.

That study shows that pre-existing cancer cells can metabolise fructose easily. You are conveniently missing two critical things when you cite this as evidence of HFCS increasing cancer risk:

1) The cancer cells must already exist in order for them to use the fructose for proliferation. In other words, you have to already have cancer before fructose can become a risk factor.

2) "Real" sugar is 50% fructose, so it's not as though there's even a significant reduction in fructose levels when consuming "real" sugar. This means that you are severely overstating what is, in actual fact, an infinitesimal risk delta between "real" sugar and HFCS.

ZV
 

PlasmaBomb

Lifer
Nov 19, 2004
11,636
2
81
Links aren't hard to find from peer reviewed scientific articles for everything I said. It isn't P&N, so I didn't delve into an array of links for everything. I could post dozens of links, but I'll just start with a couple of recent studies:

http://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/content/70/15/6368.abstract



http://www.jci.org/articles/view/37385


There you have increased risk for cancer, heart disease, and diabetes. Need I continue?

Thanks dullard... was at work (still am) will have a look when I get home (think I have seen the second study not sure about the first).
 
Mar 11, 2004
23,261
5,704
146
Yeah it's pretty incredible if you look at the EROI for Brazil's cane sugar ethanol program. IIRC some studies suggest it's about 8:1, in that area, whereas the EROI for corn ethanol in the US is maybe just slightly above 1:1. It's a really cool thing they have going down there. Of course we also have tariffs on ethanol imported from Brazil as well, so US consumers can't benefit from their cheap and efficient production. More protectionist BS to help prop up the domestic corn and ag industries, same as with the tariffs on imported sugar.

Yeah Brazil's energy industry is very interesting.

I don't want to get too far off topic in this thread, but there's a lot of depth to ethanol and biofuel. Also, bio-cellulosic alone has a lot more depth to it, and I should have clarified earlier when I mentioned it that I was talking about the ones where they let bacteria eat waste (sewage and trash).
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,354
8,444
126
You should read up as well

http://www.reuters.com/article/idAFN0210830520100802



HFCS is a new creation in biological terms. The human body has not had access to it through it's entire effective evolution since it's only been around for a handful of generations. I would much prefer to stick to the "real" sugar if I need to sweeten something.

Then again, I would rather eliminate all HFCS from my diet in addition to most sweeteners and artificially processed foods.


considering that cane sugar has only been available to the common man for a few centuries it's not like we've evolved to use it very much. sugar was very much a luxury good until very recently.

actually, considering the fructose to sucrose content of grapes, mediterranean and mid-eastern people have been eating fructose for millenia.





Yeah it's pretty incredible if you look at the EROI for Brazil's cane sugar ethanol program. IIRC some studies suggest it's about 8:1, in that area, whereas the EROI for corn ethanol in the US is maybe just slightly above 1:1. It's a really cool thing they have going down there. Of course we also have tariffs on ethanol imported from Brazil as well, so US consumers can't benefit from their cheap and efficient production. More protectionist BS to help prop up the domestic corn and ag industries, same as with the tariffs on imported sugar.
per wikipedia sugar cane has between 11 and 16 grams of sucrose per 100g of cane. sweet corn has all of 3.2g sugar (of all kinds) per 100g. and that's from an edible portion so doesn't include stalks and leaves, and probably doesn't include the cob either. cane is nearly 100% usable for sugar, where only a tiny % of the corn plant is. make iowa last in the country to nominate the president instead of first and we wouldn't have this crap.
 
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