Higher Education Insanity -- 8th Circuit Court rules that a poor guy can't discharge $350,000 student loan debt.

[imported_inspire]

Did he get himself into this position? Yeah. Is the government ever going to see that money? No. Who wins? Nobody.

Call me what you will, but if I were this guy, I'd just go off the grid or join the military and have them help repay it. That's me though. Either way, the government wouldn't get all that money back and the taxpayer would lose.

 

[piasabird]

No one forced him to go to school????

Student loans can not be considered in filing bankruptcy proceedings. He is stuck with the debt and can not get any more student loans if he defaults. However, defaulting on student loans is a common problem. Probably the economy will pick up and he will find work some place.

I think some of these colleges are way over-charging for educational costs. However, with all these easily accessable student loans, they are getting away with it. Maybe he can get a job working for Sotomayor as a legal clerk.

 

[AndrewR]

Originally posted by: piasabird
I think some of these colleges are way over-charging for educational costs. However, with all these easily accessable student loans, they are getting away with it. Maybe he can get a job working for Sotomayor as a legal clerk.

That is part of my view, too, in conjunction with what I wrote above. There is no incentive for the banks to deny loans because they know they are protected by the federal government. There is no incentive for the schools to lower costs because the students have access to these massive loans backed by the government. Students feel the need to attend the best school available, regardless of cost, because of the pressures of the job market. Where's the incentive to keep schools affordable?

It's a system run amuck.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: AndrewR

Originally posted by: piasabird
I think some of these colleges are way over-charging for educational costs. However, with all these easily accessable student loans, they are getting away with it. Maybe he can get a job working for Sotomayor as a legal clerk.

That is part of my view, too, in conjunction with what I wrote above. There is no incentive for the banks to deny loans because they know they are protected by the federal government. There is no incentive for the schools to lower costs because the students have access to these massive loans backed by the government. Students feel the need to attend the best school available, regardless of cost, because of the pressures of the job market. Where's the incentive to keep schools affordable?

It's a system run amuck.

Your opinion isn't supported by facts. My wife is a college professor at a small private college and they and others are laying off staff and faculty because they aren't raping students. The costs of just running a campus are staggering as is the cost of compliance. The faculty accept relatively low pay because for some odd reason they believe that what they do when providing a good education is more important than money.

I don't think you understand how close higher education is to collapsing.

 

[stateofbeasley]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Originally posted by: AndrewR

Originally posted by: piasabird
I think some of these colleges are way over-charging for educational costs. However, with all these easily accessable student loans, they are getting away with it. Maybe he can get a job working for Sotomayor as a legal clerk.

That is part of my view, too, in conjunction with what I wrote above. There is no incentive for the banks to deny loans because they know they are protected by the federal government. There is no incentive for the schools to lower costs because the students have access to these massive loans backed by the government. Students feel the need to attend the best school available, regardless of cost, because of the pressures of the job market. Where's the incentive to keep schools affordable?

It's a system run amuck.

Your opinion isn't supported by facts. My wife is a college professor at a small private college and they and others are laying off staff and faculty because they aren't raping students. The costs of just running a campus are staggering as is the cost of compliance. The faculty accept relatively low pay because for some odd reason they believe that what they do when providing a good education is more important than money.

I don't think you understand how close higher education is to collapsing.

The original story is in the context of a law school. Faculty salaries, even at the worst TTT ranked law school, are generally six figures.

AndrewR has it exactly right.

The banks will throw loans at anyone, even those attending expensive, private diploma mill law schools, because they know the government is on their side.

The government needs to stop backing these loan companies.

Universities need to stop opening these fucking diploma mill law schools, and at least 30% of the law schools in this country need to be shut down for good.

Higher education has become a mockery. It makes me sick when I hear Obama talking about sending more kids to college.

 

[XZeroII]

The guy is a moron. Hopefully he hasn't and will never reproduce.

 

[OCGuy]

Am I supposed to feel bad for this idiot?

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard
I am a PhD scientist and I'm hardly having a hard time finding a job. My only problem is choosing between them. I don't know anyone who has graduated in the last five years that hasn't had at least two job offers prior to even graduating.

What is your area? I have a Masters in chemistry and I'm pretty certain based on my observations and readings over the years that at least life sciences PhDs have had a rough go of it. The very existence of postdocs is excellent evidence that they have a hard time finding jobs. I could go out and dig up websites and whatnot that discuss this issue if you're interested. See if you can find Arthur Sowers' collection of essays, Contemporary Problems in Science Jobs and read his essay about the science career half-life.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

To everyone calling him a moron--are you going around saying that everyone should attend college and that our nation needs more and better college education? Would you guys be willing to suggest that we should close down half of the law schools, many of the business schools, and a bunch of undergraduate institutions in order to prevent college degree overproduction? If he's a moron for educating himself and attaining some college degrees when there is an oversupply of graduates, then isn't the government also moronic for subsidizing and encouraging all of this?

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper
If student loan debt were treated like other debts that can be discharged in bankruptcy, we'd have less irresponsible lending and quite possibly a decrease in the overproduction of college graduates (which would make it easier for borrowers to repay their loans).

it used to be that way until doctors started graduating from school and declaring bankruptcy immediately.

 

[TruePaige]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

To everyone calling him a moron--are you going around saying that everyone should attend college and that our nation needs more and better college education? Would you guys be willing to suggest that we should close down half of the schools, many of the business schools, and a bunch of undergraduate institutions in order to prevent college degree overproduction? If he's a moron for educating himself and attaining some college degrees when there is an oversupply of graduates, then isn't the government also moronic for subsidizing and encouraging all of this?

I think he is a moron because he became and lawyer and does not understand bankruptcy law or finances.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper
What is your area? I have a Masters in chemistry and I'm pretty certain based on my observations and readings over the years that at least life sciences PhDs have had a rough go of it. The very existence of postdocs is excellent evidence that they have a hard time finding jobs. I could go out and dig up websites and whatnot that discuss this issue if you're interested. See if you can find Arthur Sowers' collection of essays, Contemporary Problems in Science Jobs and read his essay about the science career half-life.

My degrees are all chemical engineering, but my research has been in wastewater treatment (masters) and biomechanics (PhD). The existence of post-docs is part of a training process: grad school doesn't teach you to be a professor, it only teaches you how to learn and do research. The post-doc period teaches you (in theory) how to write grants, run your own projects, et cetera. I know around 100 people that have graduated with PhD's in engineering/computer science in the five years that I've been here and not one hasn't gotten a post-doc, faculty, or industry position prior to graduation. Nor has anyone I know that was interested in an academic career settled for an industry position (or vice versa). Maybe instead of reading a bunch of junk essays, you could have simply gotten your PhD and figured that out for yourself.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

CycloWizard, the big difference is that the people you know have engineering degrees and not straight-up science degrees. The engineering job market is completely different. At least in the life sciences most of the people doing the postdocs aren't doing them because they want to do them but because they can't find any other positions and they would be happy to take positions in industry.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper
CycloWizard, the big difference is that the people you know have engineering degrees and not straight-up science degrees. The engineering job market is completely different. At least in the life sciences most of the people doing the postdocs aren't doing them because they want to do them but because they can't find any other positions and they would be happy to take positions in industry.

Why have I never been in a lab with an American chemistry post-doc? You've made up your mind, stuck to your guns, and presented nothing except useless generalizations to make your points. At least I have my anecdotes.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

That's strange, I've known dozens of American postdocs over the years. Perhaps you won't find American postdocs in ChemE, but that doesn't mean you won't find them in the life sciences, other areas of biology and chemistry, and physics. You've got your anecdotes, I've got mine I guess. I suppose that you too have made up your mind and stuck to your guns. If you want I can start digging up links to articles about the career graveyard that is the science Ph.D. job market. (I said science, not engineering.)

 

[stateofbeasley]

The law school scam is up.

Even the law school deans are starting to publicly admit that job prospects for law school grads are generally not worth the $150,000 cost.

A Dean?s Warning for Optimistic Law Students: Big Pay Goes to Small Number

?Students graduate with a large amount of debt and sometimes unrealistic expectations of what the job market is going to be,? she told the publication. ?They think that everyone is going to earn a lot of money. When you look at the statistics, a relatively small percentage of people make the large salaries.?

And the ABA, which has done nothing for the profession other than encourage illegal shipping of attorney jobs to India, is starting to acknowledge the problem:

ABA President-elect Nominee Stephen N. Zack told the Daily Business Review that the meeting was ?a general review of the economic status of the legal profession.?

He said median lawyer income is $72,000 and average debt of law graduates is $150,000. Those making less money will have a hard time justifying the cost of their legal education. ?This is a real problem for the profession on a number of different levels,? he said.

The best thing this country can do is close these fucking toilet law schools, which churn out worthless JD degrees and charge tuition of $40,000 a year.

 

[Wheezer]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper
To everyone calling him a moron--are you going around saying that everyone should attend college and that our nation needs more and better college education? Would you guys be willing to suggest that we should close down half of the law schools, many of the business schools, and a bunch of undergraduate institutions in order to prevent college degree overproduction? If he's a moron for educating himself and attaining some college degrees when there is an oversupply of graduates, then isn't the government also moronic for subsidizing and encouraging all of this?

no, both you and he are morons because a college education does not guarantee a damn thing. Even in a "good" economy there is nothing set in stone that you WILL have a job after college. It is a crap shoot and he gambled and lost....that is the risk you take. You still have to pay for what you obligated yourself to....fuck him.

I wouldn't want the fuckwad for an attorney.... if he lost the case he'd probably throw himself on the courtroom floor, piss his pants and cry for his mommy.

on top of the fact it took him ten years to get through school.....christ he is not only a shitty student but as the case proves a shitty lawyer too.

fuck him.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper
That's strange, I've known dozens of American postdocs over the years. Perhaps you won't find American postdocs in ChemE, but that doesn't mean you won't find them in the life sciences, other areas of biology and chemistry, and physics. You've got your anecdotes, I've got mine I guess. I suppose that you too have made up your mind and stuck to your guns. If you want I can start digging up links to articles about the career graveyard that is the science Ph.D. job market. (I said science, not engineering.)

Reading fail. Oh well.

 

[stateofbeasley]

Originally posted by: Wheezer

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper
To everyone calling him a moron--are you going around saying that everyone should attend college and that our nation needs more and better college education? Would you guys be willing to suggest that we should close down half of the law schools, many of the business schools, and a bunch of undergraduate institutions in order to prevent college degree overproduction? If he's a moron for educating himself and attaining some college degrees when there is an oversupply of graduates, then isn't the government also moronic for subsidizing and encouraging all of this?

no, both you and he are morons because a college education does not guarantee a damn thing. Even in a "good" economy there is nothing set in stone that you WILL have a job after college. It is a crap shoot and he gambled and lost....that is the risk you take. You still have to pay for what you obligated yourself to....fuck him.

I wouldn't want the fuckwad for an attorney.... if he lost the case he'd probably throw himself on the courtroom floor, piss his pants and cry for his mommy.

on top of the fact it took him ten years to get through school.....christ he is not only a shitty student but as the case proves a shitty lawyer too.

fuck him.

Fuck the law schools! Fucking diploma mills!:|

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: Wheezer
no, both you and he are morons because a college education does not guarantee a damn thing. Even in a "good" economy there is nothing set in stone that you WILL have a job after college. It is a crap shoot and he gambled and lost....that is the risk you take. You still have to pay for what you obligated yourself to....fuck him.

The issue isn't necessarily one of "guarantee" but rather "what is the probability"? The issue is, how much of an oversupply should be produced and at what point does overproduction begin to constitute economic waste that impoverishes our society and that does a disservice to students, graduates, and practitioners?

I wouldn't want the fuckwad for an attorney.... if he lost the case he'd probably throw himself on the courtroom floor, piss his pants and cry for his mommy.

Actually, he won his case at the Bankruptcy Court and at the Federal District Court. It was the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 8th Eighth Circuit that overturned the decisions from both of those courts.

on top of the fact it took him ten years to get through school.....christ he is not only a shitty student but as the case proves a shitty lawyer too.

I don't know all of the details, but I'm under the impression that it took him 10 or 11 years total to get through both undergrad and law school, which means that that time might also have included time off in between. He did pass the Bar Exam on the first try (which doesn't say much, though). Without knowing more about him, it seems like it's hard to say that he's a crappy lawyer as far as legal talent and ability goes. (I love it when non-lawyers who couldn't tell you the difference between Palsgraf and Pennoyer contemplate the talent and merits of lawyers; it's just so funny.)

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: CycloWizardReading fail. Oh well.

Ok, tell me, what did I miss?

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: Wheezer
on top of the fact it took him ten years to get through school.....christ he is not only a shitty student but as the case proves a shitty lawyer too.

fuck him.

who cares how long it took him. i know 2 people that have been in school around 10 years. why? they work and have a family.

to say he is a idiot because it took 10 years is retarded.

 

[piasabird]

I know a little something about federal student loans. Before you can get a loan you have to review and understand how student loans work and that you are required to go through loan entrance counseling. No one enters the loan process ignorant. This is required under federal law. Student loans can not be forgiven, and bankruptcy law can not negate the requirement to repay the loan. Being in default of course will ruin your ability to get any federal financial aid unless you start making payments. This is how the system works. So dont be infantile. Your mommy will not be able to bail you out of every problem you get into.

 

[soccerballtux]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: soccerballtux

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: soccerballtux
Usually you can't discharge it, it happens under the "undue hardship" clause. Did he argue for this?

Guys don't forget tuition costs wouldn't be so high if it weren't for government involvement in the first place-- free loans and Pell have done nothing but increase the price.

I think he had a hard time arguing this due to having what appears to be a 70k\year job.

He shouldn't-- that's still undue hardship. To pay that off he'd have to live on $20k for 10 years, maybe more, because of the interest. Good luck trying to run a family....

Get the gov't out of the situation first (student loans) and then things like this will fix themselves.

Did you know if the government hadn't been in control of student loans then my last 2 years of loans would have been at about 2-3% instead of the 6% mandated by congress? That works out to something like 40% lower monthly payments, IIRC, assuming I make the minimum payment (I won't be doing that, but still).

Nobody forced him to run up that much debt for school. The guy is a deadbeat.

OK so I went back and actually read the link. I agree.

I still want government out of the student loan and pell-grant business.

 

[stateofbeasley]

Originally posted by: piasabird
I know a little something about federal student loans. Before you can get a loan you have to review and understand how student loans work and that you are required to go through loan entrance counseling. No one enters the loan process ignorant. This is required under federal law. Student loans can not be forgiven, and bankruptcy law can not negate the requirement to repay the loan. Being in default of course will ruin your ability to get any federal financial aid unless you start making payments. This is how the system works. So dont be infantile. Your mommy will not be able to bail you out of every problem you get into.

The "entrance counseling" site that I went through in 2003 said NOTHING about the fact that federally backed loans cannot be discharged in bankruptcy. There was some boilerplate nonsense about "you understand that you must pay back your loans", but it was no different than what you'd find in a standard credit cart application.

I have here in front of me my student loan papers, and NONE of them say ANYTHING about the risks involved in the loans, or the long term consequences.

Fact of the matter is that the student loan companies like Scammie Mae are out to get kids, and will collect bailout money from Washington if graduates can't pay.

The system is rigged against consumers and against students - the unfortunate result of Republicans handing out corporate welfare, Democrats who think every kid should go to college, Universities who want easy cash to fund their questionable agenda (boosting US News & World Report ranking instead of actually educating), and loan companies who are all to eager to boost quarterly profits.

Nobody bailed me out of my loans. I had to work my ass off to get rid of them and the leaches they feed. But not everyone is so lucky. People get trapped and can't ever get out, unless they go abroad or into the "cash only" economy.