Hillary says it's time to eliminate the Electoral College

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Indus

Lifer
May 11, 2002
10,454
7,064
136
I don't give a fuck about Hillary but I always thought after 2000, it needed to go.
 

1sikbITCH

Diamond Member
Jan 3, 2001
4,194
574
126
Why?
Trump runs his mouth constantly and gets in everyones face. Obviously thats the key to winning.

Agreed however:

1. She represents the old guard if you want to be a little magnanimous about it. If you want to speak plainly she is likely as corrupt and guilty of illegal shit as the GOP folks claim. As Trump would put it, she is part of the swamp.

2. She is poisonous to the brand actual guilt not withstanding and I personally loooooooaaath her. A lightning rod and a distraction. Be gone.

3. Bernie. The right wants to burn the world down with hate, I'd rather drown it to death with looooove. I agree that the time for revolution is here; I am just hoping it's like Marlo said:

 
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justoh

Diamond Member
Jun 11, 2013
3,686
81
91
The electoral college has allowed minority rule twice in the last 16 years. It's time to go.

It's twice in the last year. Trump and Underwood. 2000 doesn't count as it wasn't even an election.
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,315
1,215
126

Because they are undemocratic. These 30 percent aren't even voted on, they are the establishment picking winners over the will of the people.

The whole deal stinks. It's wrong, unfair and undemocratic. The central element of democracy is elections. Why, oh why, should the supposed "party of the people" reserve nearly one-thirds of their delegates for a select group of individuals who don't have to stand for election? The only people who should be called superdelegates and not have to be elected should be past nominees for president or vice president. That's it! They and they alone deserve that singular honor and distinction.

This "House of Lords" category within the Democratic Party is unjustifiable and cannot be defended. For the 2020 convention, the process of eliminating this elitist exercise and exclusionary result should immediately begin. At the 2020 Democratic Party convention, no one (except past party nominees) should be accorded super status. That's what, I repeat, democracy is all about. The Democratic Party should practice what it preaches.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,825
49,526
136
Agreed however:

1. She represents the old guard if you want to be a little magnanimous about it. If you want to speak plainly she is likely as corrupt and guilty of illegal shit as the GOP folks claim. As Trump would put it, she is part of the swamp.

Yes let's speak plainly. Please put forth the evidence you have that she is likely corrupt and guilty. When you do, you'll realize that claim isnbullshit.

2. She is poisonous to the brand actual guilt not withstanding and I personally loooooooaaath her. A lightning rod and a distraction. Be gone.

3. Bernie. The right wants to burn the world down with hate, I'd rather drown it to death with looooove. I agree that the time for revolution is here; I am just hoping it's like Marlo said:


Man was Clinton right in her book, the irrational hatred of her makes absolutely no sense.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,825
49,526
136
1 person 1 vote for the president.

Not 1 Montana Vote, 0.7 California Votes for president.

The electoral college has allowed minority rule twice in the last 16 years. It's time to go.

The political minority doesn't need special treatment. They should pull themselves up by their bootstraps like the rest of us if they want to win the vote.

I am still waiting to hear a single convincing argument as to why arbitrarily drawn boxes by former congressmen are good reasons for granting the people that live inside that box extra say in who leads the entire country.

Usually the argument seems to be that if we counted all votes equally that the candidates favored by cities would usually win. That's dumb for two reasons:

1) this is fundamentally a complaint saying you're mad that in a democratic election the person with the most votes wins. That's stupid.

2) the parties would realign somewhat to the left and that would split the cities enough to make non-city areas, aligned with more conservative areas viable. It's only because our national politics have been skewed so far right by the special extra advantages given to rural areas that cities vote so overwhelmingly democratic.
 
Feb 4, 2009
34,703
15,951
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Yes let's speak plainly. Please put forth the evidence you have that she is likely corrupt and guilty. When you do, you'll realize that claim isnbullshit.



Man was Clinton right in her book, the irrational hatred of her makes absolutely no sense.

Clinton failed where many Democrats fail. Protecting her brand/reputation
Imagine if I worked with you and talked shit about you every single day at some point people are going to believe that shit if you never fire back.
I know it sucks but that is the reality.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,825
49,526
136
Clinton failed where many Democrats fail. Protecting her brand/reputation
Imagine if I worked with you and talked shit about you every single day at some point people are going to believe that shit if you never fire back.
I know it sucks but that is the reality.

She fired back constantly, but I don't think that mattered as it's asymmetric warfare. People who tend to vote for Democratic candidates care about that sort of thing and people who tend to vote for Republicans don't. Trump was obviously, comically guilty of everything Republicans said they hated about Clinton but that didn't stop them from voting for him for a second. It's about tribal identity and almost nothing else.
 
Feb 4, 2009
34,703
15,951
136
She fired back constantly, but I don't think that mattered as it's asymmetric warfare. People who tend to vote for Democratic candidates care about that sort of thing and people who tend to vote for Republicans don't. Trump was obviously, comically guilty of everything Republicans said they hated about Clinton but that didn't stop them from voting for him for a second. It's about tribal identity and almost nothing else.

My opinion is she fired back but in a Wellesley College I'm smarter than you and I know it snotty way. She lacked the social skills of Bill.
This is a failing of many Democrats over the decades.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,825
49,526
136
My opinion is she fired back but in a Wellesley College I'm smarter than you and I know it snotty way. She lacked the social skills of Bill.
This is a failing of many Democrats over the decades.

Do you think this is more likely the failing of basically every single prominent democrat going back decades or do you think this is symptomatic if a fundamental difference in how the two parties operate? Remember, Bill Clinton is still widely derided for how he fought back decades later.

Even excluding Bill it's either the fault of Hillary Clinton, Obama, Kerry, Gore, Dukakis, Mondale, and Carter, not to mention countless hundreds of congressional Democrats, or it's something else.

Edit: I find the argument that all Democrats need to do is act like Republicans to be unpersuasive. I can't think of any successful Democrats in recent memory that have worked in that way.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,594
7,653
136
Why did you include Obama in that list? He was competitively charismatic, up there with Bill.
None of his opponents held a candle to his appeal. (Age may be a factor)
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,825
49,526
136
Why did you include Obama in that list? He was competitively charismatic, up there with Bill.

Obama was constantly criticized during his presidency for not fighting back against Republicans and was constantly criticized for somehow losing the charisma he displayed in 2008.
 
Feb 4, 2009
34,703
15,951
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Do you think this is more likely the failing of basically every single prominent democrat going back decades or do you think this is symptomatic if a fundamental difference in how the two parties operate? Remember, Bill Clinton is still widely derided for how he fought back decades later.

Even excluding Bill it's either the fault of Hillary Clinton, Obama, Kerry, Gore, Dukakis, Mondale, and Carter, not to mention countless hundreds of congressional Democrats, or it's something else.

Edit: I find the argument that all Democrats need to do is act like Republicans to be unpersuasive. I can't think of any successful Democrats in recent memory that have worked in that way.

No I'm tired of years of this discussion it's part following when they go low we go high. That has never worked in my life, I suspect it's never worked in your life. That is the reason they go low.
Yes the previously mentioned guys all had the stink of I'm smarter than you & I know it. Except maybe Carter or Mondale, I was pretty young then. Obama managed to pull a Bill Clinton and own the insults, he didn't hide from the press, he didn't drive around in a prententuos scooby van. Hillary is not good with words that is why she followed carefully prepared speeches and comments. Her candidacy was run by committee, just look at the huge party goals from the DNC that summer. They have been posted here before, do you know of anyone who followed such a complicated plan and had success?
Democrats need to be better at protecting their reputations it's a fault we all have.

The original reason Bill was called bubba is it was supposed to be an insult, he's a country bumpkin but Bill turned it around and owned it.
Hillary needed to do something similar
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,825
49,526
136
No I'm tired of years of this discussion it's part following when they go low we go high. That has never worked in my life, I suspect it's never worked in your life. That is the reason they go low.

It has not only worked, it's worked twice out of the last three presidential elections. Obama was smeared from all sides as a traitorous Muslim, an angry black man, etc, etc. A never ending torrent of toxic racism. (From the right that, remember, is totally not racist) He went high and he won.

Do you think Obama would have been more successful by say, insinuating that McCain had become a Manchurian Candidate in Vietnam or maybe mocked how he couldn't lift his arms up above his shoulders?

Yes the previously mentioned guys all had the stink of I'm smarter than you & I know it. Except maybe Carter or Mondale, I was pretty young then. Obama managed to pull a Bill Clinton and own the insults, he didn't hide from the press, he didn't drive around in a prententuos scooby van. Hillary is not good with words that is why she followed carefully prepared speeches and comments. Her candidacy was run by committee, just look at the huge party goals from the DNC that summer. They have been posted here before, do you know of anyone who followed such a complicated plan and had success?

I don't know what you're referring to.

Democrats need to be better at protecting their reputations it's a fault we all have.

How should they go about doing this?

The original reason Bill was called bubba is it was supposed to be an insult, he's a country bumpkin but Bill turned it around and owned it. Hillary needed to do something similar

What exactly did she need to own? The attacks against Bill in your description were that he was a hick. The attacks against Hillary were that she was corrupt murderer who sold uranium to the Russians and cackled while people died at Benghazi. Can you explain how someone 'owns' that?
 
Feb 4, 2009
34,703
15,951
136
It has not only worked, it's worked twice out of the last three presidential elections. Obama was smeared from all sides as a traitorous Muslim, an angry black man, etc, etc. A never ending torrent of toxic racism. (From the right that, remember, is totally not racist) He went high and he won.

Do you think Obama would have been more successful by say, insinuating that McCain had become a Manchurian Candidate in Vietnam or maybe mocked how he couldn't lift his arms up above his shoulders?



I don't know what you're referring to.



How should they go about doing this?



What exactly did she need to own? The attacks against Bill in your description were that he was a hick. The attacks against Hillary were that she was corrupt murderer who sold uranium to the Russians and cackled while people died at Benghazi. Can you explain how someone 'owns' that?

No because McCain went high, I would suggest Obama should have gone after the loons harder.
You own it by confronting it in a sincere way and explaining why it's not true. A good example on the Uranium to Russia thing would be to talk about the Steele(sp) document. I'm sure it was brought to her attention. You go crazy on me I'll go crazy on you.
I would prefer our Politics not go in that direction but that point passed years ago.
 

TheVrolok

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
24,254
4,077
136
I don't have to...the founding fathers of this country have already done that...they have also provided a way to change it also which requires 3/4 of the states to ratify it...good luck with the smaller states on that one....
You don't really know what you're talking about, do you?
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,315
1,215
126
What exactly did she need to own? The attacks against Bill in your description were that he was a hick. The attacks against Hillary were that she was corrupt murderer who sold uranium to the Russians and cackled while people died at Benghazi. Can you explain how someone 'owns' that?

The attacks against Hillary that I was aware of was that she took millions of dollars from the terrorist supporting Saudis and supported their bloody agenda in the Middle East, that she took millions from corrupt banking interests and that she was in the back pocket of big pharma. No sane person took the strawman "allegations" you posted seriously.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
14,875
10,300
136
I think it would take a Constitutional crisis or civil war to get rid of the EC. Big states would have to force the issue, or small states aren't going to give it up. There is some wisdom to EC though, because it is not entirely healthy to have the government be responsive to a handful of media markets. Also it's not like the small states are ripping some massive benefits from the EC. Trump states are primarily losers in the competitive modern world.

The truth is the EC is no benefit to small states, that is a myth. It is a massive benefit to swing states. No one campaigns in Texas, Oklahoma, Alabama, Road Island, etc during the general because all of their EC votes are locked up.

If the EC went away they would actually have to campaign to the entire country, not the 7 states that might actually swing. The idea that without the EC they'd only campaign to a handful of metros is not based on anything other than a Republican talking point.
 
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