Hillary says it's time to eliminate the Electoral College

Page 20 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
The point of states rights was supposed to be a check against federal power. It would limit the ability of the federal government to decide top to bottom what states could do. Right now, that would be a great limit on Trump. Personally, I feel far too much power is put in the federal government. People really hate that some states will do bad things, but overall I think it would be good. We would have had gay marriage and legal weed.

Meh. You overlook the enormous power of multinational capitalism & the basic premise of divide & conquer in order to profit. If we're to remain a free people the power & organizational level of govt has to scale up to match that of corporate interests. If not, we'll end up as lords & serfs.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
In some states. In other states we would probably still have segregation.

In some ways I would prefer greater autonomy for states but one problem we have now is that a lot of states are simply not productive enough. I guess we could let migration solve that problem, but that might just make it worse too.

So to me I think the federal government has the ability to stop state enforced racism and segregation, just not individual (opinion). So, I think you would still have segregation in private areas, but not at the state level and above. We still have some of that now, its just not explicit.

I doubt many would be okay with that model though. I think a lot of people like the federal government trying to stop individual racism. I worry that is too much power to get the state though.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Meh. You overlook the enormous power of multinational capitalism & the basic premise of divide & conquer in order to profit. If we're to remain a free people the power & organizational level of govt has to scale up to match that of corporate interests. If not, we'll end up as lords & serfs.

And what happens when that strong central government gets corrupted by those same companies. Literally every time in history, a strong central government has had corruption with said companies. So who protects us from our protectors?

When you make the central government powerful, you give the incentive for companies to consolidate their efforts in corrupting that one thing.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,298
8,212
136
And what happens when that strong central government gets corrupted by those same companies. Literally every time in history, a strong central government has had corruption with said companies. So who protects us from our protectors?

When you make the central government powerful, you give the incentive for companies to consolidate their efforts in corrupting that one thing.

So those powerful economic actors either gain control directly, or by means of capturing government. That may well be true, but it's a pretty depressing prospect.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,825
49,526
136
And what happens when that strong central government gets corrupted by those same companies. Literally every time in history, a strong central government has had corruption with said companies. So who protects us from our protectors?

When you make the central government powerful, you give the incentive for companies to consolidate their efforts in corrupting that one thing.

Are you saying that all western nations are currently suffering from regulatory capture? That seems to be pretty wrong.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
And what happens when that strong central government gets corrupted by those same companies. Literally every time in history, a strong central government has had corruption with said companies. So who protects us from our protectors?

When you make the central government powerful, you give the incentive for companies to consolidate their efforts in corrupting that one thing.

Having a stronger central govt does not preclude stronger state govts as well. You paint them as oppositional when the truth is that Repubs want weak govt at all levels.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Are you saying that all western nations are currently suffering from regulatory capture? That seems to be pretty wrong.

To some extent yes. I do not know of any government that is not corrupted in some way. I am saying that the stronger central government makes for a bigger target.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Having a stronger central govt does not preclude stronger state govts as well. You paint them as oppositional when the truth is that Repubs want weak govt at all levels.

It's often zero sum. A strong central government can say that a drug is illegal, and can stop states from making it legal. A strong central government can make gay marriage illegal and the states must follow.

How could a state be strong and a central government be strong? Strong is relative to the other side.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
It's often zero sum. A strong central government can say that a drug is illegal, and can stop states from making it legal. A strong central government can make gay marriage illegal and the states must follow.

How could a state be strong and a central government be strong? Strong is relative to the other side.

It was the federal govt that forced gay marriage onto many states. It's the same with civil rights & women's rights as well. Child labor. Pure food & drugs. Pollution. Workplace safety. Financial regulation. States like Alabama would have very weak govt & third world poor if it weren't for continuous injection of federal funds to keep them afloat.

W/O a strong federal judiciary we'd have christian authoritarians like Roy Moore running roughshod over people's rights like they did 100 years ago.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
It was the federal govt that forced gay marriage onto many states. It's the same with civil rights & women's rights as well. Child labor. Pure food & drugs. Pollution. Workplace safety. Financial regulation. States like Alabama would have very weak govt & third world poor if it weren't for continuous injection of federal funds to keep them afloat.

W/O a strong federal judiciary we'd have christian authoritarians like Roy Moore running roughshod over people's rights like they did 100 years ago.

Only after forcing marriage to be defined as man and woman. I think you forgot DOMA. Just like it was the federal government that said women can't vote, and a state was the first to allow it.

You may want to visit your examples again.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,825
49,526
136
Only after forcing marriage to be defined as man and woman. I think you forgot DOMA. Just like it was the federal government that said women can't vote, and a state was the first to allow it.

You may want to visit your examples again.

The federal government never forced marriage to be defined as man and woman and the federal government never barred women from voting. DOMA said states weren't required to recognize OTHER states' gay marriages and nothing more.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_of_Marriage_Act
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
The federal government never forced marriage to be defined as man and woman and the federal government never barred women from voting. DOMA said states weren't required to recognize OTHER states' gay marriages and nothing more.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_of_Marriage_Act

So the 14th amendment did not explicitly say male in it? I'm pretty sure it did.

Also, here is the intro to DOMA.

The Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) (Pub.L. 104–199, 110 Stat. 2419, enacted September 21, 1996, 1 U.S.C. § 7 and 28 U.S.C. § 1738C) was a United States federal law that, prior to being ruled unconstitutional, defined marriage for federal purposes as the union of one man and one woman, and allowed states to refuse to recognize same-sex marriages granted under the laws of other states. Until Section 3 of the Act was struck down in 2013 (United States v. Windsor), DOMA, in conjunction with other statutes, had barred same-sex married couples from being recognized as "spouses" for purposes of federal laws, effectively barring them from receiving federal marriage benefits.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,825
49,526
136
So the 14th amendment did not explicitly say male in it? I'm pretty sure it did.

The 14th amendment prohibits denying the right to vote to men, it does not require denying the right to vote for women. Those were always state level choices.

Also, here is the intro to DOMA.

The Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) (Pub.L. 104–199, 110 Stat. 2419, enacted September 21, 1996, 1 U.S.C. § 7 and 28 U.S.C. § 1738C) was a United States federal law that, prior to being ruled unconstitutional, defined marriage for federal purposes as the union of one man and one woman, and allowed states to refuse to recognize same-sex marriages granted under the laws of other states. Until Section 3 of the Act was struck down in 2013 (United States v. Windsor), DOMA, in conjunction with other statutes, had barred same-sex married couples from being recognized as "spouses" for purposes of federal laws, effectively barring them from receiving federal marriage benefits.

Right, and as per your quote there is zero in there that prohibits states from recognizing same-sex marriage. In fact while DOMA was the law of the land large numbers of states did exactly that. The federal government chose what IT defined as marriage, (as it still does) but never forced any other entity to abide by its definition.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
The federal government never forced marriage to be defined as man and woman and the federal government never barred women from voting. DOMA said states weren't required to recognize OTHER states' gay marriages and nothing more.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_of_Marriage_Act

It's much the same wrt drug laws. The feds can't effectively suppress cannabis consumption w/o state & local enforcement of their own statutes. Yeh, sure, Mitt could have suppressed storefront cannabis but that would have just become a black market free for all here in CO.

All of which has little to do with the EC & the anomalous result it has produced in 2 of the last 3 presidents. Conservatives love to go on about how it protects the rights of small states when, in truth, those rights are well protected by the very nature of the Senate. What rights were truly asserted in 2016, anyway, other than the right of the minority to saddle the rest of us with a national disgrace of a president?
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
The 14th amendment prohibits denying the right to vote to men, it does not require denying the right to vote for women. Those were always state level choices.



Right, and as per your quote there is zero in there that prohibits states from recognizing same-sex marriage. In fact while DOMA was the law of the land large numbers of states did exactly that. The federal government chose what IT defined as marriage, (as it still does) but never forced any other entity to abide by its definition.

I think that is splitting hairs though. The federal government was used to deny rights of others. The reason for it being done on the federal level and not state by state was because its far easier to get the fed to do it vs individual states.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,825
49,526
136
I think that is splitting hairs though. The federal government was used to deny rights of others.

I don't think it's splitting hairs at all. Denying marriage equality was overwhelmingly a state affair until the federal government stepped in and stopped it. As far as voting goes, the federal government never made any rules against women voting at all, that was again the states doing so until the feds stepped in to stop them.

The reason for it being done on the federal level and not state by state was because its far easier to get the fed to do it vs individual states.

This is not correct as no federal law can tell states how they define marriage, that's unconstitutional. The Constitution requires states to give each other's agreements full faith and credit among other things, which is what DOMA was trying to get around, but it was always primarily states oppressing gay people until the central government put a stop to it.
 
sale-70-410-exam    | Exam-200-125-pdf    | we-sale-70-410-exam    | hot-sale-70-410-exam    | Latest-exam-700-603-Dumps    | Dumps-98-363-exams-date    | Certs-200-125-date    | Dumps-300-075-exams-date    | hot-sale-book-C8010-726-book    | Hot-Sale-200-310-Exam    | Exam-Description-200-310-dumps?    | hot-sale-book-200-125-book    | Latest-Updated-300-209-Exam    | Dumps-210-260-exams-date    | Download-200-125-Exam-PDF    | Exam-Description-300-101-dumps    | Certs-300-101-date    | Hot-Sale-300-075-Exam    | Latest-exam-200-125-Dumps    | Exam-Description-200-125-dumps    | Latest-Updated-300-075-Exam    | hot-sale-book-210-260-book    | Dumps-200-901-exams-date    | Certs-200-901-date    | Latest-exam-1Z0-062-Dumps    | Hot-Sale-1Z0-062-Exam    | Certs-CSSLP-date    | 100%-Pass-70-383-Exams    | Latest-JN0-360-real-exam-questions    | 100%-Pass-4A0-100-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-300-135-exams-date    | Passed-200-105-Tech-Exams    | Latest-Updated-200-310-Exam    | Download-300-070-Exam-PDF    | Hot-Sale-JN0-360-Exam    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Exams    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-JN0-360-exams-date    | Exam-Description-1Z0-876-dumps    | Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps    | Dumps-HPE0-Y53-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-HPE0-Y53-Exam    | 100%-Pass-HPE0-Y53-Real-Exam-Questions    | Pass-4A0-100-Exam    | Latest-4A0-100-Questions    | Dumps-98-365-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-98-365-Exam    | 100%-Pass-VCS-254-Exams    | 2017-Latest-VCS-273-Exam    | Dumps-200-355-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-300-320-Exam    | Pass-300-101-Exam    | 100%-Pass-300-115-Exams    |
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    | http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    |