Hillary's "gold standard" TPP bill (remember how she lied in the debate?)

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feralkid

Lifer
Jan 28, 2002
16,577
4,659
136
Some people believe the country is more progressive than it really is. They can't even get very progressive governors in so-called progressive states elected. Why they think one would be electable on the national stage is a mystery.



8 years of hard right-wing Obama rule made them flip out and nominate a progressive white female.

Honest mistake.


.
 

Indus

Lifer
May 11, 2002
10,455
7,067
136
Of course as evident by the millions of people who didn't vote for any other candidate but her in the primary. So yeah, anyone else could have won! /s

Like I said, dumb as shit!

Its funny you say that but the rules are the ones that're dumb.

I was/ am an independent. I wanted to vote for him in the primary, and changed my party registration to democratic in early 2016 only to be told, it would not happen till the next senate primary cycle in 2018.

I think I'm far from alone. There were a lot more votes for Bernie that just weren't heard because of the bureaucracy.

You can say I can cry a river all you want but this is a serious problem with our democracy. Tomorrow if Hillary runs as Republican you'll be fucked since you can't vote in the primary for her depending on your state rules..
 
Last edited:

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,345
15,156
136
Its funny you say that but the rules are the ones that're dumb.

I was/ am an independent. I wanted to vote for him in the primary, and changed my party registration to democratic in early 2017 only to be told, it would not happen till the next senate primary cycle in 2018.

I think I'm far from alone. There were a lot more votes for Bernie that just weren't heard because of the bureaucracy.

You can say I can cry a river all you want but this is a serious problem with our democracy. Tomorrow if Hillary runs as Republican you'll be fucked since you can't vote in the primary for her depending on your state rules..

I'm an independent and I didn't have a say in the primary either. That didn't stop me from voting for her in the general election where my choices were her or trump (either directly or indirectly).

That's all besides the point as the point you are trying to make is invalidated by the facts.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-system-isnt-rigged-against-sanders/


https://ballotpedia.org/Open_primary
 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
38,751
3,068
121
On what charges?

None.

But for some reason a lot of money has been wasted in government trying to do so.

Bill Gates used to be completely despised from many people at one time, but he has done much work to promote the general welfare.

The Clinton Foundation was not even founded when Bill was in office, lots of people raise hell about it, even though as a charity organization it is rated a lot higher than many older ones for what it actually does.

All I have read of any disclosure of a Trump Foundation is most of it goes into his families pockets and stays there.
 

superstition

Platinum Member
Feb 2, 2008
2,219
221
101
Bill Gates used to be completely despised from many people at one time, but he has done much work to promote the general welfare.
Charity exists so people won't raid the fortunes of billionaires. The world could have more effective philanthropists than Bill Gates, a guy who apparently thought it made good sense to put money into cutting off the foreskins of African men.

Charity isn't about doing good for the world. It's about protecting the elite from people with pitchforks.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
And, remember how she chose a pro-TPP Kaine instead of someone else, because she supposedly no longer supported gold standard bills? (Maybe she was too busy rewarding Debbie with an "honorary" position in her campaign after she was kicked out of the DNC of all places for corruption.)

Just want to remind people what they're not getting with Trump.
Maybe. I honestly don't think even Trump knows what we are getting with Trump.
 
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superstition

Platinum Member
Feb 2, 2008
2,219
221
101
Maybe. I honestly don't think even Trump knows what we are getting with Trump.
Regardless, though, the bottom line is that Hillary Clinton was hardly a great alternative.

We were given two very poor candidates by the elite money that bankrolls presidential races. We're told that says everything about us but nothing about that money and its agenda.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Regardless, though, the bottom line is that Hillary Clinton was hardly a great alternative.

We were given two very poor candidates by the elite money that bankrolls presidential races. We're told that says everything about us but nothing about that money and its agenda.
Agreed.

Sad that we're all bemoaning the choices we get from the two parties and yet when a non-establishment candidate actually breaks through the politics, it's Trump.
 
Reactions: trenchfoot

superstition

Platinum Member
Feb 2, 2008
2,219
221
101
I'm not convinced Trump's nomination and election are really an example of anything breaking through. He's clearly a useful idiot for elite money, especially the GOP. He's an easy excuse for the establishment. They'll say "See, look at how benevolent we actually are. And, you thought you wanted someone anti-establishment..."

Aside from his misbehavior, so far he hasn't done much of anything to counter the establishment GOP policy either. His administration is packed with people like Pence and Priebus who are as establishment as you can get. If he had truly been any sort of breaththrough he would have nominated very different people to his cabinet, not a bunch of GOP establishment venerables (like Sessions) and a few industry crooks.

Both parties will use Trump for their marketing pitch that the claims that our government is corrupt just isn't true. "Look at him; he's worse!" Meanwhile, research will show things like 90% of the public don't exist to Congress and haven't for as many decades as the research went back to.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
I'm not convinced Trump's nomination and election are really an example of anything breaking through. He's clearly a useful idiot for elite money, especially the GOP. He's an easy excuse for the establishment. They'll say "See, look at how benevolent we actually are. And, you thought you wanted someone anti-establishment..."

Aside from his misbehavior, so far he hasn't done much of anything to counter the establishment GOP policy either. His administration is packed with people like Pence and Priebus who are as establishment as you can get. If he had truly been any sort of breaththrough he would have nominated very different people to his cabinet, not a bunch of GOP establishment venerables (like Sessions) and a few industry crooks.

Both parties will use Trump for their marketing pitch that the claims that our government is corrupt just isn't true. "Look at him; he's worse!" Meanwhile, research will show things like 90% of the public don't exist to Congress and haven't for as many decades as the research went back to.
Um, Trump won on a shoestring, with most of his spending being his own money. Hillary raised and spent record level amounts of cash. I'd say she's the one who should be termed a useful idiot for elite money. Not as useful as they had hoped, certainly, but still.
 

superstition

Platinum Member
Feb 2, 2008
2,219
221
101
Um, Trump won on a shoestring, with most of his spending being his own money. Hillary raised and spent record level amounts of cash. I'd say she's the one who should be termed a useful idiot for elite money. Not as useful as they had hoped, certainly, but still.
Trump is president elect because elite money backed both. If the GOP hadn't considered Trump acceptable he wouldn't have been nominated. Moreover, if the elite money that backs the Democratic brand had wanted to make sure the public wouldn't have someone like Trump they wouldn't have force-fed us Clinton, a candidate who was one of the most disliked in history.

You don't win popularity contests by pushing extremely unpopular people on others. I don't see Trump's election in terms of the mainstream media's narrative. Our elite handlers are savvier than people give them credit for. One doesn't get billions of dollars being passive. No one occupies the White House by accident. By accident I mean without having very strong elite backing.

Anyone can see just how establishment Trump's cabinet is and how he morphed into a standard right-wing GOP politician in terms of the issues as soon as he saw he had a real shot at the nomination. Out was the "Let people use whatever bathroom they feel they need to"/"I'll be much better for gays than Hillary!" and in was a few tons of anti-gay and anti-trans messaging to shore up the base. Trump even seems happy to be a marionette for the GOP establishment based on his complaints about living in the White House, his cabinet picks, his policy shifts, the stories about him delegating the cabinet selection process to Mike Pence, etc.
 
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KMFJD

Lifer
Aug 11, 2005
29,707
43,971
136
When will people stop parroting the Investor State Dispute Settlement (ISDS) section, that shit has been around for over 2 decades. Can anyone point to disastrous results from corporations suing gov't using ISDS? No? Then STFU.

Alt-left has some true retards.


While the investors don't always win, there are a number of disturbing cases
 
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KMFJD

Lifer
Aug 11, 2005
29,707
43,971
136
Spammer necro?
I do shitpost a bit but i found an article i found interesting, and i hate starting new threads.I found this one talking about ISDS and how it's allowing corporations to sue governments from passing laws that will hurt the most precious thing in the world 'their profits'
 
Reactions: Pohemi and hal2kilo

KMFJD

Lifer
Aug 11, 2005
29,707
43,971
136
The following just popped up in my feeds, anytime you sign a free trade deal you seem to be ceding a bit of sovereignty to the dominant economic power


~An American company wanted to build a massive fossil fuel project in Quebec. After full public debate, the provincial and federal governments rejected the plan based on environmental concerns. The company launched a record-breaking NAFTA lawsuit against Canada — confirming the dire threat that investor-state dispute settlement (ISDS) poses to bold climate action.

The case — the largest in NAFTA’s history — drives home the growing conflict between forward-looking, ambitious climate action and retrograde investment treaties that indemnify foreign investors from government decisions that cut into their future profits.

Ruby River Capital, a Delaware-registered corporation owned and controlled by two U.S. venture capital firms, proposed to build a natural gas liquefaction plant and maritime terminal on the Saguenay Fjord near the mouth of the St. Lawrence River.

The firm is seeking compensation of “no less than” US$20 billion (just over $27 billion Canadian) — the largest amount ever claimed by an investor under NAFTA’s ISDS provisions and among the highest current investor-state claims globally.

Ruby River’s inflated demands are based on the investor’s speculative estimate of the profits the project supposedly would have made over its lifetime. It is many, many times the costs actually incurred in seeking project approval (US$120 million by the investor’s estimate).



 

Tsinni Dave

Senior member
Mar 1, 2022
559
1,376
106
That's approx. $1000 per man, woman and child here in Canada. American capitalism at its finest. Seeking damages equivalent to the expected profits for the lifetime of a project that you never even have to build, maintain and employ a workforce for is a pretty sweet deal. This may be the largest but by no means the only instance of this crap.
In the spirit of the season I hope they get roasted by an open fire.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
69,557
27,861
136
So all I have to do is propose a project with no chance in hell of being permitted and, as long as I do it in Canada, I can collect the guestimated profits? Cool!

My flow-through dirty water reactor design is just about ready.

BTW, how bad does a project have to be to get nixed by Canada, the land where tar sands are blessed?
 

Indus

Lifer
May 11, 2002
10,455
7,067
136
The following just popped up in my feeds, anytime you sign a free trade deal you seem to be ceding a bit of sovereignty to the dominant economic power


~An American company wanted to build a massive fossil fuel project in Quebec. After full public debate, the provincial and federal governments rejected the plan based on environmental concerns. The company launched a record-breaking NAFTA lawsuit against Canada — confirming the dire threat that investor-state dispute settlement (ISDS) poses to bold climate action.

The case — the largest in NAFTA’s history — drives home the growing conflict between forward-looking, ambitious climate action and retrograde investment treaties that indemnify foreign investors from government decisions that cut into their future profits.

Ruby River Capital, a Delaware-registered corporation owned and controlled by two U.S. venture capital firms, proposed to build a natural gas liquefaction plant and maritime terminal on the Saguenay Fjord near the mouth of the St. Lawrence River.

The firm is seeking compensation of “no less than” US$20 billion (just over $27 billion Canadian) — the largest amount ever claimed by an investor under NAFTA’s ISDS provisions and among the highest current investor-state claims globally.

Ruby River’s inflated demands are based on the investor’s speculative estimate of the profits the project supposedly would have made over its lifetime. It is many, many times the costs actually incurred in seeking project approval (US$120 million by the investor’s estimate).




Deserves its own thread really.. how we've gone from NAFTA to protectionist in just 5-6 years and would anyone be surprised if we started targeting NAFTA?
 

KMFJD

Lifer
Aug 11, 2005
29,707
43,971
136
Deserves its own thread really.. how we've gone from NAFTA to protectionist in just 5-6 years and would anyone be surprised if we started targeting NAFTA?
I believe that the new revised NAFTA treaty limit's these types of lawsuits and it goes into affect next year

Just look at some of these..


~The tribunal acknowledged that Oxy had broken the law, that the response of the Ecuadorian government (forfeiture of the firm’s investment) was lawful, and that Oxy should have expected that response. But the tribunal then concocted a new obligation for the government (one not specified by the BIT itself) to respond proportionally to Oxy’s legal breach as part of the “fair and equitable treatment” requirement. Deeming themselves the arbiters of proportionality, the tribunal determined that Ecuador had violated the novel investor-state obligation.


~For 26 years, Texaco, later acquired by Chevron, performed oil operations in Ecuador. Ecuadorian courts have found that during that period the company dumped billions of gallons of toxic water and dug hundreds of open-air oil sludge pits in Ecuador’s Amazon, poisoning the communities of some 30,000 Amazon residents, including the entire populations of six indigenous groups (one of which is now extinct). After a legal battle spanning two decades and two countries, in November 2013 Ecuador’s highest court upheld prior rulings against Chevron for contaminating a large section of Ecuador’s
Amazon and ordered the corporation to pay $9.5 billion to provide desperately needed clean-up and health care to afflicted indigenous communities.

Instead of abiding by the rulings, Chevron asked an investor-state tribunal to challenge the decision produced by Ecuador’s domestic legal system. Chevron has asked the tribunal to order Ecuador’s taxpayers to hand over to the corporation any of the billions in damages it might be required to pay to clean up the still-devastated Amazon, plus all the legal fees incurred by the corporation in its investor-state pursuit. In its investor-state claim, Chevron is seeking to re-litigate key aspects of the lengthy domestic court case, including whether the affected communities even had a right to sue the corporation. Chevron is claiming that its special foreign investor rights under the BIT have been violated. This, despite the fact that Texaco’s investment in Ecuador ended in 1992, the BIT did not take effect until 1997, and the BIT is not supposed to apply retroactively to cover past investments.


~Donziger spearheaded a lengthy crusade against the company on behalf of tens of thousands of Indigenous people in the Amazon rainforest whose homes and health were devastated by oil pollution, only to himself become, as he describes it, the victim of a “planned targeting by a corporation to destroy my life”.
 
Reactions: Tsinni Dave

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
23,561
13,122
136
Wait Chevron is one of those companies that have known about the connection between fossils and climate change for 60-70 years right? But actively chose to lie about it publicly?

Doesnt that mean that they are liable for all future profits that is gonna be nixed by climate change? What? 10.000.000 trillion dollars?
 
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