History buffs, come in here! Bismarck related questions.

[SSSnail]

I have just finished watching Search for the Bismarck, and it seems to me that there are two things that stood out:

1. Doesn't seem like it put up a fight the morning it was sunk - why? British ships opened fire first, it was cornered, it knew it was going to be attacked, and it has enough guns...
2. Why doesn't have a supporting fleet? Such a huge investment...

 

[LegendKiller]

I have just finished watching Search for the Bismarck, and it seems to me that there are two things that stood out:

1. Doesn't seem like it put up a fight the morning it was sunk - why? British ships opened fire first, it was cornered, it knew it was going to be attacked, and it has enough guns...
2. Why doesn't have a supporting fleet? Such a huge investment...

This was classic Hitler buffoonery. He didn't account for aircraft, although most navies didn't (except the Japanese) and thus the ship didn't have enough AA. Then the PE left it alone , without destroyers or cruisers it was going to be vulnerable. It's silly to sail a single ship (or 2 with the PE) alone to "raid" convoys without hope of support, it'll get cornered eventually, just like the Graff Spee.

Again, this is typical Hiter stupidity (thankfully). His wrong moves also cost them an effective jet fighter for several months/years as he couldn't decide whether it should be a fighter or bomber. Another one was his inability to think beyond the basic U-Boat until it was too late. So many revolutionary technologies that went unused or used poorly.

 

[uclaLabrat]

This was classic Hitler buffoonery. He didn't account for aircraft, although most navies didn't (except the Japanese) and thus the ship didn't have enough AA. Then the PE left it alone , without destroyers or cruisers it was going to be vulnerable. It's silly to sail a single ship (or 2 with the PE) alone to "raid" convoys without hope of support, it'll get cornered eventually, just like the Graff Spee.

Again, this is typical Hiter stupidity (thankfully). His wrong moves also cost them an effective jet fighter for several months/years as he couldn't decide whether it should be a fighter or bomber. Another one was his inability to think beyond the basic U-Boat until it was too late. So many revolutionary technologies that went unused or used poorly.

I don't know if anyone was worried about the bismarck and prinz eugen getting "cornered", it was fast enough to outrun anything that was heavier and had far more firepower than anything faster than it. It probably would have been home free if the ark royal's swordfish hadn't gotten a lucky shot and disabled the bismarck's rudder, forcing it to essentially steam in circles.

 

[FallenHero]

Wasn't it's steering mechanism damaged, so maneuvering was next to impossible. It could basically only go in a circle.

Fleet tactics werent exactly known to the Germans. Wolfpacks, yes. But they never had any sort of naval presence beyond that. As LK stated, Hitler was insane and prevented alot of things from happening that should have military-wise.

 

[BladeVenom]

forcing it to essentially steam in circles.

It was going around in circles. Practically a sitting duck.

 

[lupi]

virtually no naval ships had sufficient AA mounts during the first years of the war.

the germans had a couple surface raiders designed to be fast, hit hard, and travel alone while attempting to intercept shipping lanes. not only is it easier to be undetected as a solo ship, it's also far easier to remotely resupply as such.

 

[LegendKiller]

I don't know if anyone was worried about the bismarck and prinz eugen getting "cornered", it was fast enough to outrun anything that was heavier and had far more firepower than anything faster than it. It probably would have been home free if the ark royal's swordfish hadn't gotten a lucky shot and disabled the bismarck's rudder, forcing it to essentially steam in circles.

It was being tailed and would have been caught no matter what from what I remember.

 

[LegendKiller]

virtually no naval ships had sufficient AA mounts during the first years of the war.

the germans had a couple surface raiders designed to be fast, hit hard, and travel alone while attempting to intercept shipping lanes. not only is it easier to be undetected as a solo ship, it's also far easier to remotely resupply as such.

Ultimately they never really did much damage, mainly because they were hunted down by a far superior navy.

 

[SSSnail]

But they had U-Boats, it would have been wise to invest a few U-Boats if detection was their concerns. But then again, as I understand, Hitler did do (or didn't) do a lot of things right.

 

[Iron Woode]

If I remember correctly, the HMS Hood mistook the Bismark for the Prinz Eugen and opened fire. They did not realize their mistake until the Bismark started lobbing shells trying to determine range. The massive shells eventually sunk the pride of the Royal Navy.

Looked it up and it seems I had it backwards. The Hood opened up on Prinz Eugen mistaking it for the Bismark while the Prince of Wales opened up on the Bismark.

 

[GagHalfrunt]

I have just finished watching Search for the Bismarck, and it seems to me that there are two things that stood out:

1. Doesn't seem like it put up a fight the morning it was sunk - why? British ships opened fire first, it was cornered, it knew it was going to be attacked, and it has enough guns...
2. Why doesn't have a supporting fleet? Such a huge investment...

1) Earlier attack jammed the rudder and the Bismarck couldn't try to evade, she was essentially a sitting duck. The Brits landed a shitload of hits early on, knocked out a couple of turrets the the firing control system. The Bismark kept fighting back, but mostly she was a burning hulk early in the fight, she stayed afloat hours longer than she should have.

2) The Germans didn't operate in "fleets" of surface raiders. The Bismarck was bigger and faster than anything else the Germans had, so surrounding her with more ships would have slowed her down and made her less effective. The lone wolf surface raider concept was used very effectively by the Graf Spee and to a lesser degree by the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau. The Germans wanted to give the Bismark a cruise or two while the Tirpitz was being finished and then team them up together. It just didn't work out that way. And as someone else mentioned, the Germans didn't really account for air power, the ability of planes to sink capital ships was very much in doubt at that stage. The German Admiralty figured the Bismarck could outfight almost anything the Brits had afloat and easily run away from larger fleets. It actually wasn't such bad thinking really, the British carrier planes were junk. If that one torpedo from the Ark Royal didn't jam the Bismarck's rudder she would easily have made it back to port and could have formed a really dangerous combo with the Tirpitz.

 

[sandorski]

The amount of ordnance used to take down the Bismark is mind boggling. It was a mistake to use it solo, but it was clearly superior to anything else in the water at that time. It was like the Death Star.

 

[Exterous]

The lone wolf surface raider concept was used very effectively by the Graf Spee and to a lesser degree by the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau. The Germans wanted to give the Bismark a cruise or two while the Tirpitz was being finished and then team them up together. It just didn't work out that way.

Yeah - they knew they didnt have the ability to stand toe to toe with the British so they designed their fleet to go after Britains vulnerability - her sea supply lines.

 

[thumper01]

It was being tailed and would have been caught no matter what from what I remember.

The British Navy had lost the Bismark, but intercepted radio communications from the Bismark alerted the British that Bismark was heading to France. The British fleet redeployed to intercept Bismark but no heavy ships were going to get close enough to engage before Bismark reached safety. The Bismark was discovered by search aircraft and the only ship close enough to do anything about it was the Ark Royal, which was a light aircraft carrier incapable of directly engaging Bismark. From what I remember, the Swordfish bi-planes sent out from the Ark Royal were a last ditch attempt to disable or slow down the Bismark before it reached safety.

 

[Raduque]

Relevent: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KecIdlEAKhU

 

[ichy]

Fleet tactics werent exactly known to the Germans. Wolfpacks, yes. But they never had any sort of naval presence beyond that.

Um, I'd suggest reading up on the history of the German navy in WW1.

 

[ichy]

It was like the Death Star.

No it was not.

 

[alent1234]

Um, I'd suggest reading up on the history of the German navy in WW1.

after Jutland the german navy didn't do much

 

[ichy]

Part of the reason that the Bismarck was so ineffective in her last fight against the King George V and Rodney was that she was listing and could not stay on a straight course. It's tough to maintain an accurate firing solution when you're constantly turning. Her slow speed at the time also made her an easier target.

In addition to this the British scored some early lucky hits against her turrets and fire control directors. By the time of WW2 it was much easier to render a battleship combat ineffective than it was to sink her. Finally you have to remember the numerical superiority that the Royal Navy had in that fight. Two battleships & two heavy cruisers against one battleship that couldn't steer.

 

[slag]

Part of the reason that the Bismarck was so ineffective in her last fight against the King George V and Rodney was that she was listing and could not stay on a straight course. It's tough to maintain an accurate firing solution when you're constantly turning. Her slow speed at the time also made her an easier target.

In addition to this the British scored some early lucky hits against her turrets and fire control directors. By the time of WW2 it was much easier to render a battleship combat ineffective than it was to sink her. Finally you have to remember the numerical superiority that the Royal Navy had in that fight. Two battleships & two heavy cruisers against one battleship that couldn't steer.

The British ships were no match for the Bismark with her armament and armor. Even damaged, she was still a serious force to be reckoned with.
As stated earlier, her rudder was damaged from a swordfish attack which caused her to go in circles and from there on out, it was like shooting fish in a barrel.

I think the HMS hood was a heavy cruiser. She sank rather quickly when the bismark opened up on her. By contrast, the British ships poured a ton of ammo into the Bismark before she finally died. Truly an awesome ship.

 

[JTsyo]

Ultimately they never really did much damage, mainly because they were hunted down by a far superior navy.

Would make sense for the Germans to spend much resources on a surface navy since the British would sink anything they put out in the North Sea. Navy was essential for the British being a island nation, same with Japan. Germany though had to ensure superior ground forces to be able to take on Russia.

 

[ichy]

The British ships were no match for the Bismark with her armament and armor.

The King George V was just as modern as the Bismarck and nearly as large. The Rodney was older & slower but had more firepower and was about equal in armor protection. The Bismarck wasn't some sort of super ship.

Most WW2 era battleships were very difficult to sink unless you got lucky or hit them below the waterline with torpedoes. At Guadalcanal the US battleship South Dakota took dozens of hits and was never in danger of sinking.

HMS Hood had been designed as a battlecruiser in WW1 which meant that her armor protection was crap (she wasn't designed to go toe to to with a "real" battleship.) She'd been upgraded between the wars but really wasn't that well protected. Thin armor combined with a lucky hit on her magazines (there's still some debate about exactly why she blew up) were what doomed her.

 

[ichy]

Would make sense for the Germans to spend much resources on a surface navy since the British would sink anything they put out in the North Sea. Navy was essential for the British being a island nation, same with Japan. Germany though had to ensure superior ground forces to be able to take on Russia.

The German surface fleet was a prestige project and a waste of resources. I shudder to think what the Kriegsmarine could have accomplished if the resources they spent on cap ships had gone to U-boats instead.

 

[dennilfloss]

The King George V was just as modern as the Bismarck and nearly as large. The Rodney was older & slower but had more firepower and was about equal in armor protection. The Bismarck wasn't some sort of super ship.

Most WW2 era battleships were very difficult to sink unless you got lucky or hit them below the waterline with torpedoes. At Guadalcanal the US battleship South Dakota took dozens of hits and was never in danger of sinking.

HMS Hood had been designed as a battlecruiser in WW1 which meant that her armor protection was crap (she wasn't designed to go toe to to with a "real" battleship.) She'd been upgraded between the wars but really wasn't that well protected. Thin armor combined with a lucky hit on her magazines (there's still some debate about exactly why she blew up) were what doomed her.

This. The fighting value of each ship and the role that luck & tactics played in each engagement is often discussed on the battleship forums.

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/battleships-board/

http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=34

http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=14

http://forum-marinearchiv.de/

 

[ichy]

A lot of the crap about the Bismarck being some sort of supership is the fault of the History Channel & other sensationalistic documentary makers. They put out trash about the hunt for Hitler's super weapon which would have changed the course of the war or some other horseshit because that pulls in more viewers than the boring truth (which was that the Bismarck was an inefficient use of resources.)