Holy Cow - Windows 8. OMG

[Mem]

I always thought Windows 8 was for preparing users for the permanent transition to Metro. MS doesn't intend on going to Metro and killing the desktop eventually?

Why did MS bother pissing off a sizeable portion of their user base with a "feature" that the user cannot turn off and works completely differently than the desktop? It doesn't seem rational from a business standpoint. Who wants two UIs on the same device?

IMHO I think they trying to make a hybrid OS that caters for all hardware ie desktop PCs, touch devices ie tablets ,phones etc so have their user database if you like all using same thing so easy for the user to go between them etc,and also a more modern OS if you like,obviously going hybrid is not an easy task and the big question I would ask them is are they going to stay with a hybrid OS for the future.

If they stay with Metro I would like them to improve Metro and give the user more options in customisation,biggest gripe for me Metro wise.

I don't have all the answers and just like you probably more questions then actual answers.

Sort of reminds me going into my bank,old days you just queued up and went to the counter,now I've to use their touch display screen in the bank and tell it what I want to do etc and it then gives me a number(which is also displayed on various big screens in the bank ) to queue up lol,welcome to the 21st century, crazy.

 

[R0H1T]

I always thought Windows 8 was for preparing users for the permanent transition to Metro. MS doesn't intend on going to Metro and killing the desktop eventually?

Nope !

Why did MS bother pissing off a sizeable portion of their user base with a "feature" that the user cannot turn off and works completely differently than the desktop? It doesn't seem rational from a business standpoint. Who wants two UIs on the same device?

Because they probably wanted to introduce their tablet/mobile interface to the avg joe & as others have pointed out win8 is essentially the same across all three platforms but MS will have to make the UI of this hybrid OS less pain in the arse for legacy systems without a touchscreen.

edit : One of the obvious advantages of metro is that you can access your tablet/mobile apps on the desktop & that is one excellent addition which no other platform gives to you.

 

[Maximilian]

I always thought Windows 8 was for preparing users for the permanent transition to Metro. MS doesn't intend on going to Metro and killing the desktop eventually?

Why did MS bother pissing off a sizeable portion of their user base with a "feature" that the user cannot turn off and works completely differently than the desktop? It doesn't seem rational from a business standpoint. Who wants two UIs on the same device?

They haven't said one way or the other. It is implied that's the route they want to take though because they call the desktop "legacy UI" and metro "modern UI". Legacy stuff gets dropped eventually. Not to mention metro is forced with there being no boot to desktop option, no start menu. It smells of easing people into this new UI because that's all they will have in the future.

Noone knows conclusively what they plan to do though except MS.

They pissed off their userbase to try and avoid another zune. Basically MS have no presence in the tablet/phone market (same as the mp3 player market with zune) and to avoid another failure like zune they attempted to leverage their massive desktop install base to get people to like metro so they would naturally be inclined to get a windows tablet/phone as opposed to iOS or android. Its not a bad idea on paper but well... we all know how it turned out :whiste:

 

[WildW]

I don't think that MS would really do away with the desktop completely. If they did it would be the last ever version of Windows, while a thousand software engineers slit their wrists rather than develop the next Windows in a Metro version of Visual Studio.

There will always be a need for an environment that allows real work to be done rather than one optimised for Angry Birds.

 

[Ketchup]

I wonder how long until they stop calling it Windows?

 

[Chiropteran]

Why did MS bother pissing off a sizeable portion of their user base with a "feature" that the user cannot turn off and works completely differently than the desktop? It doesn't seem rational from a business standpoint. Who wants two UIs on the same device?

If you do not run any metro apps, how is metro not "turned off"? Yeah, you use the start screen to start applications, but it's functionally identical to the start menu, regardless of it being part of metro.

Who wants two UI on one device? All the people who used the start menu, even though you could run programs using windows explorer and traversing the directory structure and running the program manually, without using the menu.

The start menu is just an application or tool used to make it easier to start commonly used programs. The start screen is the exact same thing. Who cares that Microsoft also wants to use it as it's metro UI thingy? You don't need to have any metro apps pinned, you can just use it as a start menu replacement.

 

[MrCoyote]

I'm not sure why everyone has an issue with Win8. I love it and am glad the archaic Start Menu has finally been replaced. I use Win8 Pro at home and work machines. At work more businesses are transitioning to Windows Server 2012 and Exchange 2013 which I find great to use also. It runs much smoother and faster than even Win7 did. The Start Screen is great, even without a touch screen. I can pin all my main apps on it, and select them with one click. With the start menu, you always had to navigate an awful archaic menu system to get to the program to start them.

 

[Arkaign]

I'm not sure why everyone has an issue with Win8. I love it and am glad the archaic Start Menu has finally been replaced. I use Win8 Pro at home and work machines. At work more businesses are transitioning to Windows Server 2012 and Exchange 2013 which I find great to use also. It runs much smoother and faster than even Win7 did. The Start Screen is great, even without a touch screen. I can pin all my main apps on it, and select them with one click. With the start menu, you always had to navigate an awful archaic menu system to get to the program to start them.

Eh? You can pin items in the Win7 start menu as well. If you turn off large icons, you can fit a ton on there if you want, or sort them into folders at the top of the menu (games, etc). Or if you don't want to bother, click start or the windows key, and start typing what you want, and bam it appears. It's perfect, and it DOESN'T FILL MY FREAKING SCREEN up and make my current work disappear until I'm back out of the crap.

So no, unless you were crippled mentally, you didn't have to navigate much of anything to use the Win7 start menu. Not only that, but Win8 actually makes some things harder to find if they're not pinned or you don't know what they're called.

You sound like a Microsoft marketeer ESPECIALLY the plug for the new Server. Having a touch-optimal start screen on a server is idiotic beyond belief.

 

[BladeVenom]

I'm not sure why everyone has an issue with Win8. I love it and am glad the archaic Start Menu has finally been replaced.

Aero was an advanced look that some new computers couldn't even run when it came out.

Metro looks like something AOL did in the 90's.

 

[Arkaign]

Aero was an advanced look that some new computers couldn't even run when it came out.

Metro looks like something AOL did in the 90's.

Definitely, and combined with the Windows 3.1 look of solid colors/blocky shapes, it's very retro, and not in a good way.

Even if you LIKE the new crap, Microsoft's biggest sin by FAR is not simply letting users have a choice. Forcing the full-screen start screen and removal of Aero is bullcrap. Simply letting users decide would have been the way to go, the people that like it either way could get what they want. I guarantee Win8 would be flying off the shelves if that were the case. Everyone would be happy, except possibly Microsoft, because the only rational explanation I can gather from their decision is that they want to corral people into the metro apps so they can get a cut from the pie a la Apple/Google with the app store sales.

I'm sorry Microsoft, but nobody wants your crap in that context. Apple and Google are invincible in the tablet/phone world. You are the Zune of tablet/phone, and nothing you can do will change that. Trying to force it through the desktop/laptop will only alienate your bread and butter. Watch people continue to go Mac when faced with a new laptop decision. Watch iPads and Android tablets continue to dwarf MS devices. Watch people steadily move out of your infrastructure.

Before Win8 hit, I thought Microsoft's hold on the PC market was fairly secure, now it seems like they're intentionally self destructing.

 

[Arkaign]

I wonder how long until they stop calling it Windows?

Yeah, now it's just 'Microsoft Window', lol.

 

[Mem]

Eh? You can pin items in the Win7 start menu as well. If you turn off large icons, you can fit a ton on there if you want, or sort them into folders at the top of the menu (games, etc). Or if you don't want to bother, click start or the windows key, and start typing what you want, and bam it appears. It's perfect, and it DOESN'T FILL MY FREAKING SCREEN up and make my current work disappear until I'm back out of the crap.

So no, unless you were crippled mentally, you didn't have to navigate much of anything to use the Win7 start menu. Not only that, but Win8 actually makes some things harder to find if they're not pinned or you don't know what they're called.

You sound like a Microsoft marketeer ESPECIALLY the plug for the new Server. Having a touch-optimal start screen on a server is idiotic beyond belief.

So he disagrees with you and you have to throw cheap insults?.try respecting other peoples opinions without cheap insults.

I for one don't find Win8 hard to use but hey I started back Pre-DOS days when things were very much harder then now, Win7 menu start tree is not perfect,Win8 UI is not pefect ,hmm thinking about it I have not found a UI that is perfect and that includes all the excellent Linux distros I use as well.

I applaud Microsoft for changing the 18 years old UI and trying something new.

I for one hope they continue to make changes and hopefully major improvements in Win9,10 etc and don't go back to Win7 UI , I don't mind even if they redesign a completely new UI but you know some people will throw a fit over that.

End of the day ALL operating systems come and go ie Win98,XP,Vista,Win7,Win8 etc..I don't see why some people get so worked up over an OS even with changes or things removed,sure it may not be perfect or even be worst for you ,but as I stated they come and go and you are not forced to use an OS you hate.

I don't know, as an old timer I do find some users nowadays want to be spoon fed,Win8 is easy to use it's not rocket science,you do have it easy nowadays and yes that is my humble opinion.

 

[Arkaign]

Oh definitely, it's far easier than working with old command line stuff, or my time with AS/400 and CP/M.

The absolute largest problem is the lack of choice, obviously motivated not by logic, but by the profit motive of corralling users into the paywall of their app store.

The insults weren't really meant as such at all, it was refuting obvious FUD about Win7 start menu customization. After all, pinning is not exclusive to either 7 or 8, if you are willing to customize either, it's equally fast. IOW, it's not about a disagreement, but correcting a lie. It would be as if I said 'you can't customize Windows 8!'. False.

All they had to do was offer a choice. If they had, we'd still have Win8 users at my law firm. As it was, they simply hated being thrown into a full-screen situation when something launched a metro app. It's also incredibly condescending that they call those 'modern' apps, when they are invariably dumbed-down non-resizable non-MT-friendly tablet/mobile oriented crap.

It's not just my opinion, Microsoft is literally diminishing before our eyes. Some of it is simple market changes, some of it is clearly self-inflicted. Office 2013 is another good example of their current misguided path. It's less efficient use of space, reduced discoverability and contrast, and is likewise hated by the users I've tried to roll it out for. So now we're moving our 2007 users to 2010 instead. We're also seeing a dramatic increase in MBA/MBP purchases. Tablets are nifty for many things, but do not make a credible replacement for a work computer for much of the enterprise and business community. Great additions, but not replacements outside of cases where the needs are pretty narrow.

 

[bshole]

End of the day ALL operating systems come and go ie Win98,XP,Vista,Win7,Win8 etc..I don't see why some people get so worked up over an OS even with changes or things removed,sure it may not be perfect or even be worst for you

Yea, but in the past of OSes brought awesome new capability. Now the only people who get excited about new OS spins are the manufacturers. OSes are no longer visibly improving the computing experience, they are simply changing it.

It kind of reminds me of the way that Borland purchased and killed off my two favorite editors Brief and CodeWright. I haven't found a modern editor that I like as well CodeWright. Its weird that the editing tools of today are inferior to tools that were made years ago.

 

[Arkaign]

Yea, but in the past of OSes brought awesome new capability. Now the only people who get excited about new OS spins are the manufacturers. OSes are no longer visibly improving the computing experience, they are simply changing it.

It kind of reminds me of the way that Borland purchased and killed off my two favorite editors Brief and CodeWright. I haven't found a modern editor that I like as well CodeWright. Its weird that the editing tools of today are inferior to tools that were made years ago.

Truth. And Win8's metro side is indeed the best thing they've done yet in terms of touch/tablet friendly work. However, with a capital F, they fubared the desktop customer with the lack of choice in rolling out an interface that is schizophrenic and does not bring anything valuable to the business desktop / non-touch user. It's not unfixable or unusable by any means, the supporting code is actually quite good. It's efficient, performs well, and is stable, along with security improvements. The problems exist with making changes not just for the sake of changing, but from the motive of forcing users into a paywalled environment for their 'modern' apps. It's the only logical explanation for the drastic changes, and why default Win8 constantly throws you into that screen.

It's aggravating because it's so transparently a ploy to chase the $ that they see going to Apple and Google. But I know thousands of people in various contexts, and I can't name one that I personally know that is wanting to ditch their iPad, iPhone, Android, or whatever for a Windows phone or tablet. Boiling the frog so to speak through the desktop is just going to have the reverse effect, instead of gaining a viable foothold in mobile, they will give up some of their foothold in desktop.

 

[Mem]

Yea, but in the past of OSes brought awesome new capability. Now the only people who get excited about new OS spins are the manufacturers. OSes are no longer visibly improving the computing experience, they are simply changing it.

It kind of reminds me of the way that Borland purchased and killed off my two favorite editors Brief and CodeWright. I haven't found a modern editor that I like as well CodeWright. Its weird that the editing tools of today are inferior to tools that were made years ago.

Previously UI OS has been the same for 18 years ie Win95 to Win7 so much for progress,sure they added features etc but it was more or less the same,change or new UI was long overdue IMHO,tablets,phones etc might of been an excuse but hybrid OS is what Microsoft wanted,the hard part is merging them or getting them to gel together,sure they worked more on the tablet/touch side UI wise and PC desktop users feel a bit left out,I feel like that as a gamer some times ie what did we get?..DX11.1 wow great lol...

The key question is Microsoft going to stay with hybrid OS long term?..Trying to please everybody on different types of hardware(tablets,phones,PC desktop users) is not an easy task as you know.

 

[Arkaign]

I agree, and I appreciate your measured perspective of these things. I am a bit volatile due to having to support the stuff in the face of angry lawyers and office staff at the law firm, but I do find the big picture discussions interesting.

The bit about the UI is definitely not arguable, I agree that some change/new paths indeed was overdue. My chief problem remains in the fact that it was forced, artificially, when we know full well that it was not due to technical requirements or even efficiency-centric logic, but rather a monetary reasoning on behalf of the suits at Microsoft, who are so clearly green with envy at their competitor's closed-ecosystem revenue setup. Giving the customer choices out of the box would have certainly made more people happy, but I suppose they feared that nobody would much want Metro on the desktop, thwarting their big plans for a big new source of income.

Letting things progress more naturally would have been far preferable. After all, we had options for 'classic' desktop/start menu in previous versions of Windows, but most users like me never bothered with them anyway. Win8 'classic' start menu option would probably have been widely used, but letting people freely choose the metro start probably would have actually increased it's acceptance rather than engender widespread loathing and frustration. That's just scratching the surface (lol), as using Win8 on a traditional notebook can be silly as well, with swiping inadvertently bringing the Metro genie out of the bottle as well.

Anyhow, cheers, and although I think I've said it before, I LOVE THAT SIG. The prisoner was one of the best series of all time.

 

[Mem]

I agree, and I appreciate your measured perspective of these things. I am a bit volatile due to having to support the stuff in the face of angry lawyers and office staff at the law firm, but I do find the big picture discussions interesting.

The bit about the UI is definitely not arguable, I agree that some change/new paths indeed was overdue. My chief problem remains in the fact that it was forced, artificially, when we know full well that it was not due to technical requirements or even efficiency-centric logic, but rather a monetary reasoning on behalf of the suits at Microsoft, who are so clearly green with envy at their competitor's closed-ecosystem revenue setup. Giving the customer choices out of the box would have certainly made more people happy, but I suppose they feared that nobody would much want Metro on the desktop, thwarting their big plans for a big new source of income.

Letting things progress more naturally would have been far preferable. After all, we had options for 'classic' desktop/start menu in previous versions of Windows, but most users like me never bothered with them anyway. Win8 'classic' start menu option would probably have been widely used, but letting people freely choose the metro start probably would have actually increased it's acceptance rather than engender widespread loathing and frustration. That's just scratching the surface (lol), as using Win8 on a traditional notebook can be silly as well, with swiping inadvertently bringing the Metro genie out of the bottle as well.

Anyhow, cheers, and although I think I've said it before, I LOVE THAT SIG. The prisoner was one of the best series of all time.

I agree,they could of added some features earlier as an option,they could of added some of the Metro stuff to Win7 for example as an option in the Win7 start menu to let users get use to it,Win8 was a major change and a shock for a lot of people,however having said that at least now they can work on Win9,10 etc with improvements.

I always expect the unexpected with Microsoft so nothing no longer shocks me.

As to my sig thanks!!!...yes I liked "The Prisoner" it was a classic.

 

[Chiropteran]

click start or the windows key, and start typing what you want, and bam it appears. It's perfect, and it DOESN'T FILL MY FREAKING SCREEN up and make my current work disappear until I'm back out of the crap.

Why is this a big deal? When I run a program using the start screen, the start screen is literally visible for less than one second. When I click on the start menu in Windows 7, it may not cover my entire screen, but it still distracts me for more than a second because it just takes longer to navigate sub-menus than it does to click on an icon that is directly visible immediately. And while I can see my desktop behind the start menu, I obviously can't get any useful work done while I am using my mouse to find the program I need.

I just don't see how this is such a big deal. Yes, the start screen is big and "interrupts your work" briefly. But starting a program with the start menu also interrupts your work.

Microsoft's biggest sin by FAR is not simply letting users have a choice.

Windows 7 is still for sale. I don't see this lack of choice.

 

[akugami]

The problem with Windows 8, more than anything, is that there is no user choice. It felt like MS was limiting what I could do and made things more inefficient. The OS is a tool. When that tool confines and slows me down, then I get pissed off.

Window 8 has a lot of good ideas to move the OS forward as far as touch interfaces go. The problem is a lot of it is unrefined. Needs more polishing. The Start Screen is a good example of this. Windows 8.1 looks to fix some of the shortcomings of the Start Screen. The easy solution would have been to allow the old Start Menu in the first place and refine the Start Screen as you get more feedback.

Take the Metro apps. Stuff like the frigging Photos app is jarring to a desktop user. I'm used to pictures opening in a window that I can move around. The first time I went in there, It acted like no Windows desktop app ever has. I hit the ESC key (I bet a lot of people did the same thing the first time) and it wouldn't hit exit full screen mode. I looked around and was stumped. Yes, I was pissed off. I want a desktop OS, not a friggin touchscreen OS.

I want to move to Win8 permanently. There are some genuine improvements. The touch UI, while having good ideas, seem half-baked in implementation. The OS feels like a one step forward, two steps back type of thing. At the end of the day, the users are angry because they are being hampered by the new OS. That's the bottom line.

And for those telling us to use Windows 7 (which I'm doing), you're admitting that Windows 8 has serious flaws and that you're better off using yesteryear's technology. That alone should tell you that Windows 8's new UI is not ready for prime time.

 

[Mem]

And for those telling us to use Windows 7 (which I'm doing), you're admitting that Windows 8 has serious flaws and that you're better off using yesteryear's technology. That alone should tell you that Windows 8's new UI is not ready for prime time.

Point is if you don't like an OS that's fine use something else,that's what I do with my Linux distros,it does not mean Linux is bad,Win8 just like Win7 has both good and bad points,you could say it's down to choice and preference for the person in question.

 

[Pia]

Just started using Win8 for the first time at new job. It's exactly as I thought it would be. All of the new functionality seems useless for me (at least on a desktop computer), but nothing of value was lost either. I don't care whether I'm using this or Win7. I presume they'll do enough for 8.1 that I'll come to somewhat prefer it to 7.

It's unfortunate they didn't get more ambitious with 8 and make a real effort to replace the aging desktop with something better (new window manager, new file manager, new API, full resolution independence, modular, user-replaceable UI components, better filesystem organization, ...).

Metro has some of that, but it doesn't look to me like they intend to ever extend it and allow it to have the power (3rd party apps, opting out of sandbox, ...) it would need to take over the duties of the desktop, which means it will stay irrelevant to me forever. And the old desktop will just keep looking and feeling worse and worse next to OS X as we get higher resolution displays.

 

[Ketchup]

Point is if you don't like an OS that's fine use something else,that's what I do with my Linux distros,it does not mean Linux is bad,Win8 just like Win7 has both good and bad points,you could say it's down to choice and preference for the person in question.

ALL NEW PCs coming with Windows 8! This is the main point of concern in my mind. To get away from it you either have to buy another copy of Windows and put it on the computer, or pay someone to do it. At the very least buy an app that returns a feature Windows has had for the past 17 years ('95 to '12). Or get a Mac.

Point is, if people like us doing like Windows 8, imagine how average people non-tech people are going to feel about it.

Let me put this another way. When the IPAD came out, Apple said that it was not a replacement for a computer, it was another tool to use with it. Microsoft is basically saying "screw that, Windows 8 can do it all" (tablet experience and PC functionality). I hate thinking that all people needing buying a new computer from a retailer are going to be Microsoft guinea pigs for this line of thinking.

 

[Mem]

ALL NEW PCs coming with Windows 8! This is the main point of concern in my mind. To get away from it you either have to buy another copy of Windows and put it on the computer, or pay someone to do it. At the very least buy an app that returns a feature Windows has had for the past 17 years ('95 to '12). Or get a Mac.

Point is, if people like us doing like Windows 8, imagine how average people non-tech people are going to feel about it.

Let me put this another way. When the IPAD came out, Apple said that it was not a replacement for a computer, it was another tool to use with it. Microsoft is basically saying "screw that, Windows 8 can do it all" (tablet experience and PC functionality). I hate thinking that all people needing buying a new computer from a retailer are going to be Microsoft guinea pigs for this line of thinking.

You do have a choice ,how about don't buy a PC with Win8,heard of Linux or Win7,iMac?..You can always wait for PCs with Win9 or 10 and hope its for you.

The Win8 ONLY choice is getting thin in my books.

As to PCs based on 18 years of Windows ie 95 to Win7,heard of progress and changes?...Things DO change,you can't expect Windows to stay on Win7 UI forever,you have to let go sooner or later,I did that when DOS 6.22 went away.

I do partly blame Microsoft for this however,reason being DOS 6.22 ,Win3.11,Win95 ALL major changes then for next 18 years no real UI change.

 

[akugami]

...It's unfortunate they didn't get more ambitious with 8 and make a real effort to replace the aging desktop with something better (new window manager, new file manager, new API, full resolution independence, modular, user-replaceable UI components, better filesystem organization, ...)...

I would have loved a new file manager. File Explorer is getting long in the tooth and I have to open multiple Explorer windows every day to do work.

Point is if you don't like an OS that's fine use something else,that's what I do with my Linux distros,it does not mean Linux is bad,Win8 just like Win7 has both good and bad points,you could say it's down to choice and preference for the person in question.

I'm not saying Win8 doesn't have its good points. The problem is that Win8 should be a move forward from Win7. As it currently stands, it's one step forward, two steps back. The fix for the Start Screen issue is so simple it's braindead retarded not to have had it in the first place.

Telling me to buy a different OS kind of means Win8 has failed.