Home Electrical -- Circuit down?

[NewSc2]

All of the outlets on a circuit in my home are down.

I called an electrician in on Friday and he tested the circuit breakers (all were fine). He then tested the outlets with a plugin outlet tester, and those showed up fine too. Thinking everything was fine, I apologized for asking him to come out and bid him adieu. After he left, I plugged in a few things to the outlets, and none worked. Called him up but it was late and he asked to reschedule, and said he had no idea what the matter would be.

Because that electrician charged by the hour, and didn't seem to know what the issue would be, I'm trying to figure out how to fix the issue myself, rather than have him test everything for 2-3 hours.

I went to Home Depot and bought one of those outlet testers, a few replacement electrical outlets, and used the multimeter I have at home.

The outlet tester still says all the outlets are fine, but the multimeter reads around 2-5 volts (very low, but not 0). I replaced one of the outlets on the circuit that was chipped, but that didn't solve anything.

Before I go through and replace all of the sockets on this line (or at least open them up and visually inspect them), is there anything else that could cause the issue I'm having?

The store associate at Home Depot said it was likely that one of the outlets had a shorted wire, and that it would be the first one in the line. I have no idea which circuit would be the first in line. How do I test for a shorted outlet/wire?

 

[edro]

I would open up every outlet in the circuit and visually inspect everything.
Start with the one closest to the breaker box, but that doesn't necessarily mean it is the first in the circuit.

Turn the breaker off before you go messing around behind the outlet covers.

 

[DrPizza]

I'm baffled. I didn't think those outlet testers would work if you had 2-5 volts. I also don't know how an electrician could have checked the outlets and concluded that they were working - when they weren't. Sounds like a crappy electrician.

If you have to call in the electrician again, get a different one.

And, you mentioned 2-3 hours??! To test the outlets on one circuit & the circuit breaker??! It should take about 5 minutes. Heck, if the homeowner did a little prep work first - moving furniture away from the walls before the electrician arrived at the house, the electrician should be able to test every outlet in the house in less than an hour.

 

[DrPizza]

(I'd do what edro suggested; of course, I'd never have called the electrician in the first place, since you could probably replace the breaker & replace all of the outlets for less than his service call.)

 

[StarTech]

It would be hard to explain how a shorted socket would not trip the corresponding breaker. It would make more sense that there is a loose connection in one of them, meaning an open circuit, and then the thing about the first one in the run would make more sense. Once happened to me that one of the two live feeder lines to the house was off, but the effect showed in more than just a few sockets. Be careful with it. It could be a bad breaker. What brand are the breakers? There is an old breaker brand (manufacturer went broke) that is famous for their breakers doing all kind of weird stuff, including being a fire hazard. The name does not come to mind now.

 

[Squisher]

Go check the voltage at the breaker, then get back to us.

 

[NewSc2]

Okay, well, I inspected several of the outlets, they all look fine inside.

As far as checking the voltage to the breaker, the electrician used those contact-free volt checkers at the circuit breaker and they lit up. I was going to purchase one of those testers too but assumed it wasn't necessary.

How do I test the outlet itself for current? The home improvement book told me to turn off the power and check for current, but I'm not exactly sure which option on my multimeter would be utilized for that.

 

[Rubycon]

ALWAYS start by testing voltage from the top of the load center and work your way down. For three wire centers in the US it should read 220-240 across L1 and L2 and 110-120 from L1 to G/N and L2 to G/N. If you are missing a phase then then call the electric company ASAP.

EDIT:

A meter (not a wiggy with NE2 lamps) is more reliable because NE2 lamps will fire with as little as 85VAC and appear as bright. If the spring is worn (old tester) on the plunger it can also give a false high reading. A Fluke 27 or equivalent DMM is recommended.

 

[NewSc2]

Originally posted by: Rubycon
ALWAYS start by testing voltage from the top of the load center and work your way down. For three wire centers in the US it should read 220-240 across L1 and L2 and 110-120 from L1 to G/N and L2 to G/N. If you are missing a phase then then call the electric company ASAP.

EDIT:

A meter (not a wiggy with NE2 lamps) is more reliable because NE2 lamps will fire with as little as 85VAC and appear as bright. If the spring is worn (old tester) on the plunger it can also give a false high reading. A Fluke 27 or equivalent DMM is recommended.

I'm sorry but I didn't really understand any of that? I'm trying to Google the terms, but I'm really clueless as to anything electric. I'm reading a home improvement manual and a bunch of electrical sources to learn everything I can.

 

[us3rnotfound]

Originally posted by: NewSc2

Originally posted by: Rubycon
ALWAYS start by testing voltage from the top of the load center and work your way down. For three wire centers in the US it should read 220-240 across L1 and L2 and 110-120 from L1 to G/N and L2 to G/N. If you are missing a phase then then call the electric company ASAP.

EDIT:

A meter (not a wiggy with NE2 lamps) is more reliable because NE2 lamps will fire with as little as 85VAC and appear as bright. If the spring is worn (old tester) on the plunger it can also give a false high reading. A Fluke 27 or equivalent DMM is recommended.

I'm sorry but I didn't really understand any of that? I'm trying to Google the terms, but I'm really clueless as to anything electric. I'm reading a home improvement manual and a bunch of electrical sources to learn everything I can.

Heh, you really shouldn't have to bother. Just find a better Electrician who actually knows what he's doing.

 

[NoShangriLa]

Use plug in tripp lite tester on outlet start from breaker panel to the last outlet, or in reverse. Once you find the cuprit outlet, open the circuit and look for a short/loose wire.

A new short lenght of 6"-8" of copper pigtail may require if the wire is too short to work with (may also need a new receptacle) , other wise strip a fresh section of wires and twist them tightly together with wire nuts (get correct nuts size for wire gauge).

It is common for a poor connection to fail over time (poor connection at wire nut/s or fail receptacle), or it could be a flawed wiring part (pinched, twisted, streched, nailed, or staple conductor).

PS.

How many things/Amps/Watts did you plug into the circuit?

Did the breaker triped?

 

[Rubycon]

Originally posted by: NewSc2


I'm sorry but I didn't really understand any of that? I'm trying to Google the terms, but I'm really clueless as to anything electric. I'm reading a home improvement manual and a bunch of electrical sources to learn everything I can.

You may want to call an electrician back! :Q

 

[NewSc2]

Originally posted by: Rubycon

Originally posted by: NewSc2


I'm sorry but I didn't really understand any of that? I'm trying to Google the terms, but I'm really clueless as to anything electric. I'm reading a home improvement manual and a bunch of electrical sources to learn everything I can.

You may want to call an electrician back! :Q

Okay, I'm not totally clueless =X about all things electric -- I have some experience soldering electronics, but I don't really know much about household wiring.

Everybody's been telling me that the plugin tester shouldn't work if it doesn't get 120 volts, so I'm not sure what the plugin tester is reading. The multimeter clearly has been showing 3-5 volts on all dead outlets, and 115-120 for good outlets. I've been reading that the circuit should have tripped if it's been shorted, but it has not.

The breaker doesn't trip when things are plugged into the outlets. The outlets just don't draw any power for a light to work on them.

The circuit has been out for a month or so, I've made do because it was on a lesser-used side of the house, but I'm setting up some gear there and now need to figure out how to get it back up.

I'm going to search around the house again to see if I overlooked an outlet on the circuit. Is there any way to test the outlet to make sure they work, while they're powered down?

 

[NewSc2]

Originally posted by: NoShangriLa
Use plug in tripp lite tester on outlet start from breaker panel to the last outlet, or in reverse. Once you find the cuprit outlet, open the circuit and look for a short/loose wire.

A new short lenght of 6"-8" of copper pigtail may require if the wire is too short to work with (may also need a new receptacle) , other wise strip a fresh section of wires and twist them tightly together with wire nuts (get correct nuts size for wire gauge).

It is common for a poor connection to fail over time (poor connection at wire nut/s or fail receptacle), or it could be a flawed wiring part (pinched, twisted, streched, nailed, or staple conductor).

PS.

How many things/Amps/Watts did you plug into the circuit?

Did the breaker triped?

Thanks, the outlets I've inspected have enough wire, but I have not yet found a "bad" outlet (one that the plugin tester doesn't work on). The dead outlets still show a "correct" wiring using the tester.

I'm not sure how many things were plugged into the circuit at the time it went down, but it wasn't much. A few lights and our cable/phone modem. My dad assumes it was the phone modem that the cable company installed (the outlets shorted out a few weeks after the install), but I tested that socket and everything looked fine.

The breaker does not trip.

 

[NoShangriLa]

Originally posted by: NewSc2

Originally posted by: Rubycon

Originally posted by: NewSc2


I'm sorry but I didn't really understand any of that? I'm trying to Google the terms, but I'm really clueless as to anything electric. I'm reading a home improvement manual and a bunch of electrical sources to learn everything I can.

You may want to call an electrician back! :Q

Okay, I'm not totally clueless =X about all things electric -- I have some experience soldering electronics, but I don't really know much about household wiring.

Everybody's been telling me that the plugin tester shouldn't work if it doesn't get 120 volts, so I'm not sure what the plugin tester is reading. The multimeter clearly has been showing 3-5 volts on all dead outlets, and 115-120 for good outlets. I've been reading that the circuit should have tripped if it's been shorted, but it has not.

The breaker doesn't trip when things are plugged into the outlets. The outlets just don't draw any power for a light to work on them.

The circuit has been out for a month or so, I've made do because it was on a lesser-used side of the house, but I'm setting up some gear there and now need to figure out how to get it back up.

I'm going to search around the house again to see if I overlooked an outlet on the circuit. Is there any way to test the outlet to make sure they work, while they're powered down?

You can try a continuity test when the power is off, but it is much easier to test with power on.

The first circuit on the line that you find that didn't work is the one that fail & need to repair, but others down the line may need to be repair also. Therefor check the rest of the receptacles on the branch to make sure that they are all working once the faulty one is repaired.

A multi meter or a pen light tester will also work in this scenario because it will let you know which circuit failed on the branch.

I don't understand where you got the extra low voltage reading from, but it sound like you haven't got the meter setup correctly.

IMHO, you should get someone that is slightly more verse electrically to work on your house, and learn by watch, because it doesn't sound like you know enough to figure it out for yourself.

 

[NoShangriLa]

Originally posted by: NewSc2

Originally posted by: NoShangriLa
Use plug in tripp lite tester on outlet start from breaker panel to the last outlet, or in reverse. Once you find the cuprit outlet, open the circuit and look for a short/loose wire.

A new short lenght of 6"-8" of copper pigtail may require if the wire is too short to work with (may also need a new receptacle) , other wise strip a fresh section of wires and twist them tightly together with wire nuts (get correct nuts size for wire gauge).

It is common for a poor connection to fail over time (poor connection at wire nut/s or fail receptacle), or it could be a flawed wiring part (pinched, twisted, streched, nailed, or staple conductor).

PS.

How many things/Amps/Watts did you plug into the circuit?

Did the breaker triped?

Thanks, the outlets I've inspected have enough wire, but I have not yet found a "bad" outlet (one that the plugin tester doesn't work on). The dead outlets still show a "correct" wiring using the tester.

I'm not sure how many things were plugged into the circuit at the time it went down, but it wasn't much. A few lights and our cable/phone modem. My dad assumes it was the phone modem that the cable company installed (the outlets shorted out a few weeks after the install), but I tested that socket and everything looked fine.

The breaker does not trip.

How many did you found on this branch?

Depends on the load, but typically a branch would have up to 12 fixtures/receptacles on it (normally 10-12).

 

[Red Squirrel]

Also meanwhile I'd just shut off the breaker to be on the safe side. If it's two loose wires somewhere there's the risk that they decide to contact each other causing a short and sparks inside your wall or near/in a junction box.

But yeah main thing you want to do here is check voltage and monitor it. Should read 120ish or so volts and be fairly steady, may move around by 1 volt give or take, at least in my experience with a volt meter (until I forgot to switch it to volt and had it to amp and shoved it in. DOH. those fuses are impossible to find)

 

[NoShangriLa]

Originally posted by: RedSquirrel
Also meanwhile I'd just shut off the breaker to be on the safe side. If it's two loose wires somewhere there's the risk that they decide to contact each other causing a short and sparks inside your wall or near/in a junction box.

But yeah main thing you want to do here is check voltage and monitor it. Should read 120ish or so volts and be fairly steady, may move around by 1 volt give or take, at least in my experience with a volt meter (until I forgot to switch it to volt and had it to amp and shoved it in. DOH. those fuses are impossible to find)

Voltage reading isn't what you are looking for in this scenario, it is lose wiring that you are looking for. It tend to be the hot line that is the culprit.

What you are looking for is the first receptacle that have no power, that could be the one that is causing the problem or one back up stream from it.

 

[Red Squirrel]

True but by reading voltage if you see it going up and down like a toilet seat then next diagnosis is wiring. But yeah pretty much sounds like it's a bad connection somewhere in the "chain" of plugs.

To be safe I'd get an electrician if your not sure enough though. Especially if you end up fixing it but you are not 100% sure it was actually the issue.

 

[NoShangriLa]

My favorite method is using a Non-contact voltage tester

I love non contact voltage tester therefore I have one wit 50-600V range, and second one with 1-50V range.

Get a tri lite tester if you need to test neutral & ground line along with the hot line.

A multi meter is useful if you want to test resistor/switches/transformer.

Troubleshooting a Dead Outlet

 

[StarTech]

Do you know which breaker is the one driving the bad sockets? If so, turn it off and look for any other sockets that are off in addition to the ones you know are bad. The other good working sockets are in the same circuit branch. The problem sounds that could be between one of the good ones and one of the bad ones. It could be a bad outbound connection in the good one, a bad line in between or the inbound connection on the bad socked. This is assuming the breaker is good.

Other than that, this is beyond your skill and you can get hurt and is time to call an electrician. Next time have a lamp ready to plug in the bad sockets when the electrician says he is done.

 

[NewSc2]

Update: Well, I think I found the bad socket. My dad "forgot" to tell me about a damaged socket that was giving him issues a couple years ago that was behind a sofa. (grr, after all this work)

I can't exactly test it with the outlet tester because of the damage done to the socket, so I'm not sure if it's on the same circuit. It sparked when I removed the outlet cover. Not sure if that means the outlet has power running through it? Regardless, I'm going to replace this socket too.

I tried my best to use a multimeter to where I *thought* the prongs were located, and they read 0. The circuit in question has been shut off, so the 0 reading is consistent with that. To be safe, though, I want to shut off all power to the house before I open up the socket, test it, and replace it, so that'll have to wait until tomorrow morning. Grr... still pissed about running around the house testing every visible power outlet... EXCEPT for this one.

 

[AlienCraft]

Originally posted by: NewSc2
Update: Well, I think I found the bad socket. My dad "forgot" to tell me about a damaged socket that was giving him issues a couple years ago that was behind a sofa. (grr, after all this work)

I can't exactly test it with the outlet tester because of the damage done to the socket, so I'm not sure if it's on the same circuit. I tried my best to use a multimeter to where I *thought* the prongs were located, and they read 0. The circuit in question has been shut off, so the 0 reading is consistent with that. To be safe, though, I want to shut off all power to the house before I open up the socket, test it, and replace it, so that'll have to wait until tomorrow morning. Grr... still pissed about running around the house testing every visible power outlet... EXCEPT for this one.

That is just Murphy at work. Replace that outlet if there is any question.
Outlets are cheap that replaceing them is just simple insurance.

 

[runzwithsizorz]

Are your outlets using the push-in terminals? If so, change them while your at it!!!!
Scroll to page 176
http://books.google.com/books?...z3MZ3c_4U0z0#PPA176,M1

 

[NewSc2]

Originally posted by: runzwithsizorz
Are your outlets using the push-in terminals? If so, change them while your at it!!!!
Scroll to page 176
http://books.google.com/books?...z3MZ3c_4U0z0#PPA176,M1

Yep, I'm replacing those with regular outlets as I'm going along the line.