Home repair: toilet question

[Miramonti]

I had a loose slightly-rocking toilet and tightened it down with the bolts under the caps on the left and right. All good.

Now it rocks again, and yet the bolts are tight. I'm afraid all I'm doing by tightening is pulling up what it's mounted to.

I've never seen the installation of a toilet tho. What might be going on here and what action might be needed to fix it?

 

[Ninjahedge]

I would worry about damage underneath the toilet.

You are probably right about the mounting being puled up, but I am not 100% sure how your toilet is mounted.

Check for water leakage, if you can, by getting underneath. Also, listen to the bowl when you rock it. Do you hear sawing (stripped mounting screws) or crackling (possible water damage/bad wood)?

If you REALLY want to know, and have another bowl in the house, I would shut it off, drain it, unmount it and take a pic. Worst comes to worst you will need to repair your floor and re-mount the bowl.

Don't wait though. If it is water damage, the longer you wait, the more damage is done.

 

[Pardus]

your flange is broken

 

[highland145]

Flange could be too high. Call a plumber. Or could shem it but not sure how long that'll last.
Floor could have some rot also.

Edit: Once the wax ring is separated, water can get out and cause damage.

Is this a new problem or is the place new to you?

 

[alkemyst]

yeah plumber time, it's a messy job and you probably wont have everything you need even if you prepared.

It should run you about $75 in most places.

 

[John P]

Pull the toilet up and inspect the flange. I believe the closet bolts on the flange are replaceable, they're in a track. The bolts may have corroded off. So, you might be able to get away with just replacing the bolts/nuts and the wax ring while you're at it. Would be a good time to install a low-flow new toilet if you were thinking about it. I've done it and I stink at home repairs.

 

[Miramonti]

I would worry about damage underneath the toilet.

You are probably right about the mounting being puled up, but I am not 100% sure how your toilet is mounted.

Check for water leakage, if you can, by getting underneath. Also, listen to the bowl when you rock it. Do you hear sawing (stripped mounting screws) or crackling (possible water damage/bad wood)?

If you REALLY want to know, and have another bowl in the house, I would shut it off, drain it, unmount it and take a pic. Worst comes to worst you will need to repair your floor and re-mount the bowl.

Don't wait though. If it is water damage, the longer you wait, the more damage is done.

There's another toilet so it's not a big problem to remove and check. Just turn off the water valves, disconnect, unmount the two bolts, and pull it up? That sounds too easy.

your flange is broken

Awesome. Any idea what that brown goop is on the flange (I can assume it's not 'waste' or he wouldn't be touching it, lol)...does the flange require any re-sealing when fixed?

Flange could be too high. Call a plumber. Or could shem it but not sure how long that'll last.
Floor could have some rot also.

Edit: Once the wax ring is separated, water can get out and cause damage.

Is this a new problem or is the place new to you?

House is 4 years old, original owner. A very slight rock existed while still in warranty but we just didn't notice it, thought it was the bowl moving a little.

Because it existed early, it likely didn't start with a water leak, but at the same time, we have had an ant problem in this room the last few years. I'm not sure how the wax ring goes, but sounds like I need to take the toilet out and have a look.

 

[bruceb]

Toilets have a flange under which the mounting studs are placed in the slots. Also a wax ring to seal the toilet base to the flange, so it does not leak. Depending on the age of the installation, it is either a cast iron drain pipe or pvc plastic. If plastic, the flange is glued into the pipe. If it is iron, it is not something you can fix yourself. Also the subfloor could be rotted out, in which case you need to fix it.

http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/how-to/intro/0,,250406,00.html

 

[Miramonti]

I'm determined to fix it myself if at all possible. Even if I don't save money, it could be an opportunity to get some more tools.

(If I need a plumber tho, I'll concede.)

 

[Capt Caveman]

Personally, before bringing in a plumber, draining the toilet, removing it and inspecting the flange and what's underneath is something you can do yourself. Replacing the flange and wax ring will cost $10-15, if that is your only problem.

 

[Modelworks]

It isn't a hard job. The wax seals are easy to find , every hardware store has them. Then you just need to check that the flange is okay. Unscrew, and pull the bowl straight up and it will come off, might be kind of hard to pull up at first the wax seals can hold pretty good sometimes. The most common issue I have heard is plumbers that never screwed down the flange to the flooring. They plumb it but then forget to attach it to the flooring so the flange moves around.

Replacing the flange is a bit more work. You have to gain access to the piping and that often isn't in easy to get to areas.

 

[Miramonti]

Toilets have a flange under which the mounting studs are placed in the slots. Also a wax ring to seal the toilet base to the flange, so it does not leak. Depending on the age of the installation, it is either a cast iron drain pipe or pvc plastic. If plastic, the flange is glued into the pipe. If it is iron, it is not something you can fix yourself. Also the subfloor could be rotted out, in which case you need to fix it.

Excellent, thanks. It's definitely pvc, I've seen the foundations in the process of being built.

 

[John P]

Pull the toilet up and inspect the flange. I believe the closet bolts on the flange are replaceable, they're in a track. The bolts may have corroded off. So, you might be able to get away with just replacing the bolts/nuts and the wax ring while you're at it. Would be a good time to install a low-flow new toilet if you were thinking about it. I've done it and I stink at home repairs.

The closet bolts are shown in the track in the red flange shown in brucb's post. You might need to just replace those. And of course the brown goop you're seeing is an ancient wax ring.

 

[alkemyst]

It's a messy job. $75 for a pro is money well spent. Just travel time back and forth to the store for the wax ring and R&R of the toilet is enough for me to spend the money on a pro.

Plus my toilet I had redone a couple months ago needed some weird shims which Home Depot didn't even have. since they weren't used by the original guy that installed the toilet in the first place was the reason it started leaking after 4 years.

 

[WackyDan]

I highly doubt that after four years it is the bolts as you could probably wiggle one of them out if that was the case.

Either the plastic flange broke, or was installed too high, or wasn't secured.

Youtube will show you have to do this and trouble shoot the issue. Toilets are easy... and in my experience are not necessarily a "dirty" job.

If you do this yourself and you find that the flange was sitting too high, you can shim it - but refrain from buying one of those wax rings that is thicker than the standards - many buy them thinking that more wax is better... but in the case of a tall flange, a thicker wax ring can put you right back with the same problem. I generally buy the standard ring with the plastic funnel built in and have never had issues in the three toilets where I have used them.

Once you shim it, all it takes is a bead of caulk to close the gap and also stabilize the toilet long term... I put a bead around every toilet I do, leaving the back side of the toilet un-caulked so that a leak will migrate out the back side and alert me to the problem ( house is built on a slab).

 

[Jeffg010]

Don't listen to alkemyst it easy to do. Shut the water value off then flush the toilet a couple of times to drain the water out. You might have to scoop some out. Then follow bruceb post. The only time you might need a plumber is if you have to sweat a pipe but not need in your case. Also check the flooring to for rot. I had to replace the flooring older house.

 

[bobdole369]

bruceb is totally right and so is jeffg. I'm assuming you are a man, and you own at least one cordless drill and enough tools (such as a set of box end wrenches, a putty knife, a crescent or vice grip set, and maybe a flare wrench) to complete this very simple job. It is either a blown out/lifted flange(replace the thing, except if its iron), settling subfloor/floor (too high flange, could also have been done at install) (shim it with something the bowl can sit on that isn't going to compress), or rotting subfloor - much more difficult and you'll need to rebuild it. When you put the bowl back use a new wax ring, dont' go to town on the hold-down bolts, the weight of the bowl is enough to compress the wax ring and seal it. The bolts are there too keep the bowl to the floor, not to level it out.

 

[waggy]

I love threads like these.

We been considering replacing the toilet upstairs. from the post here and links it does not sound to hard.

 

[edro]

No plumber will make a house call, remove toilet, repair flange and reset toilet for $75.
It would be more like $200 min.

 

[MrPickins]

Small word of advice: when you pull the toilet, keep it level so the water in the trap doesn't slosh out.

 

[highland145]

Small word of advice: when you pull the toilet, keep it level so the water in the trap doesn't slosh out.

Heh.

But my opinion is you should clean the old wax off the bottom and off the flange. Yes, many don't do it.

Edro +1

 

[zoiks]

All I know is that you don't poop in the tank.

 

[Perryg114]

Clean everything of old wax. Make sure the flange is not cracked. If it is cracked you can get a stainless steel repair flange that fits over the old cracked one. Also make sure that someone did not put new flooring in and did not raise the flange. You can get extra thick gasket to compensate to some degree. Also make sure the floor is flat under the toilet or it will get lose again or break the bottom of the toilet. The toilet should not rock even if the screws are loose unless you are having sex on top of it. My last house had concrete floors and they did not get the floor level under the toilet and it rocked back and forth. I put some shims under the front edge and no more problems.

The screws can only do so much to keep the toilet from rocking if the floor is not level. The screws are there to keep it from shifter more than rocking. If they were supposed to keep it from rocking there would be at least three screws. You have to have 3 points of support. If the floor is high right where the bolts are, it is going to rock.

Perry

 

[lokiju]

Have a wide and large plastic bin near by if you can that you can set the toilet into if possible. Will help prevent wedged in poo and water from getting everywhere.

I know from experience

 

[thedarkwolf]

I just went through this at my house. I have an older house with cast iron sewer pipes and a cast iron flange on the toilet rather than the easy to fix plastic style. The wood around my flange is also a bit rotten so I didn't have anything to screw a new flange down too. I ended up using one of these
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000DZHDQG/ref=oh_o02_s01_i01_details
It just slips down in the pipe and then you expand the rubber seal by tighten down the bolts inside the flange. It works and will last till I get around to redoing the bathroom.