Homeworld Remastered - FX gets hammered

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ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
145
106
The FX7500 is a Core i3 haswell with better than HD5000 graphics. If you could buy a laptop with Core i3 and HD5000 at the same price of that AMD Laptop you would praise it like the second coming.

No its not. Also its not the same price. There is already a thread about the FX7500 performance and price.
 

Maximilian

Lifer
Feb 8, 2004
12,604
15
81
I have a 5x5" genuine Intel Pentium Pro sticker on my i7 laptop, I bought a pack of them back in like 1998 or 99 off ebay and have been carefully doling them out ever sense. That was and still is a great CPU. Probly only above the 6x86 Cyrix in my favorites list.

It's a damn shame one can't still use old CPU's the way you can use an old car for the same basic thing a new car does.

Yeah tis a shame, the ancient platform they are tied to is too much of a PITA to get up and running. Needs its own VRM add on card as well.

I saw a scrap collector guy on youtube once destroy a dual pentium PRO rig... I was mortified D:
 

Ramses

Platinum Member
Apr 26, 2000
2,871
4
81
Yeah tis a shame, the ancient platform they are tied to is too much of a PITA to get up and running. Needs its own VRM add on card as well.

I saw a scrap collector guy on youtube once destroy a dual pentium PRO rig... I was mortified D:

There is actually a whole community of people that collect vintage CPU's, stuff I didn't have a clue existed. Was really neat reading, I want to build a display case for an entire series of like IDT Winchips or some such. Really neat reading here http://www.cpushack.com/


I think that's why I have a hard time hating something like the FX series. Never-minding the fact that I've been perfectly happy with the performance of the couple I've had, but just because it's not a Ferrari does not in my view doom it to useless crap status, especially when I'm not convinced it isn't the way the software is written as much as anything else. I apply the same judgement system to computer hardware I do to cars. I sell the automotive equivalent of 80386 parts to people all over the world every day for comical amounts of money. They are absolute crap by every measurable attribute, but they aren't crap, they are coveted.

I just can't look at stuff that way. The Pentium Pro is no less a great CPU today than it was years ago despite the fact that there are so many faster and better CPU's around now. The only hard fact I can find to differentiate is an old car can still do the same basic things a new car does, whereas an old CPU can't run current software. At the same time I'm puzzled by that, I do the same stuff on a PC I did five or ten or fifteen years ago, but the hardware I used then, can't do it now. It's like if a ten year old car suddenly can't go over 45mph or can't drive on certain roads. It's puzzling from a philosophical pov. I understand why an old CPU can't run modern software, but I don't completely accept that this is the way it should be.

Just like this game, to be semi-on topic, I'm fairly sure if you put a gun to the head of the people writing or re-writing this game and insisted they make it perform well on an FX, they could have. If that is so, which I strongly suspect based on how well some games and apps perform, then is it really that telling as to the quality or ability of the FX or telling of the goals of the guys writing the software? I think a more genuine interpretation is "this is how this software runs on x and y cpu's" rather than "this software runs great on x cpu and y cpu is junk". I think that latter interpretation is mighty shallow at best.
 
Aug 11, 2008
10,451
642
126
Well, there is an old saying "if a frog had wings he wouldn't whomp his a** every time he jumps." You can always say what if, but that does not change reality. Reality is FX performs similar to intel at best, and far worse in other cases. This is reality, and what the user has to deal with, unless one goes back and recodes every game he plays to perfectly use 8 cores. Why games are written this way is irrelevant. You can look at it any way you want, but some philosophical musing does not change the bottom line, which is performance.
 

mrmt

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2012
3,974
0
76
You can look at it any way you want, but some philosophical musing does not change the bottom line, which is performance.

Why should game developers change their programming paradigms because of the FX? If low core number/high IPC programming model is working for them, and giving them lower costs, why bother with AMD's unmitigated failures?
 

monstercameron

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2013
3,818
1
0
Why should game developers change their programming paradigms because of the FX? If low core number/high IPC programming model is working for them, and giving them lower costs, why bother with AMD's unmitigated failures?

because it is the way of the future. why bother designing a future forward engine? competitive advantage over competing firms.

you are almost saying that unreal should build their engine for dual cores...meanwhile cryengine supporting 4+threads would be laughing all the way to the bank.
 

Ramses

Platinum Member
Apr 26, 2000
2,871
4
81
I understand that, but the bottom line is boring. Everyone knows the bottom line. There are thousands of threads on forums about it. I'm interested in what's deeper. I'm interested in why and what could and what if. I'm drowning in what is. The "is" is too easy, it's effortless which is very near a synonym for worthlessness in my book. Applying some light classic Greek philosophy to such spices things up nicely.
 

mrmt

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2012
3,974
0
76
you are almost saying that unreal should build their engine for dual cores...meanwhile cryengine supporting 4+threads would be laughing all the way to the bank.

Is it? Crytek was almost bankrupt last year. I can't really see them laughing all the way to the bank because the banks almost went after them in 2014.

But I think you are still missing the point. The future can be multithreaded but not for the sake of multithreaded code, but because going multithreaded code will allow you to reach performance levels you cannot with just single threaded performance. But in a given case if it is cheaper to develop with high single threaded/low core count in mind than highly multithreaded software and single threaded does the trick, then developers shouldn't go multithreaded at all.

What we should ask is new capabilities from the game engines, not adaptation to AMD's failed architectures, and quite frankly, the latest games aren't really delivering in this front, despite using more threads. What did 8 threads brought to Battlefield that you really cannot do in other games? 64 players? Meh. I think the new breed of APIs will be far more important on the matter because they will make far better use of the general purpose hardware of the GPU, far more than spreading the CPU workloads along more threads.
 

Ramses

Platinum Member
Apr 26, 2000
2,871
4
81
There was recently a fascinating discussion, or sidetrack, into how CPU manufacturers were pushing, or trying to push, software developers into using the multiple cores that have sprung up in everything lately. My takeaway from it was those extra cores were there precisely because single cores were not advancing or "doing the trick" very quickly. Relatively speaking of course.



Developing for single/low core/thread seems shortsighted and on the way out for all but the most mild applications. Not that one can't make a financial/easy decision to do just that for the time being and have the majority of folks do OK running it, but that's.. Uninspiring.

Financials are someone else's department when I'm not on the clock, but cryengine set a high bar ime. Long after the money is forgotten the products virtues will be remembered.
 
Apr 20, 2008
10,064
984
126
Clockspeeds aren't able to go up much higher without massive power consumption, and if the process shrinks too far low you also start become clock constrained again due to the lower surface area of the die heating up such a small area without much room for thermal dissipation. Again, we'll be held up at the same speeds the desktop is on right now without dramatic changes in heatsinks.

The solution? More cores, stable frequencies, minor IPC tweaks at a lower NM fab process.
 
Last edited:

Maximilian

Lifer
Feb 8, 2004
12,604
15
81
There is actually a whole community of people that collect vintage CPU's, stuff I didn't have a clue existed. Was really neat reading, I want to build a display case for an entire series of like IDT Winchips or some such. Really neat reading here http://www.cpushack.com/


I think that's why I have a hard time hating something like the FX series. Never-minding the fact that I've been perfectly happy with the performance of the couple I've had, but just because it's not a Ferrari does not in my view doom it to useless crap status, especially when I'm not convinced it isn't the way the software is written as much as anything else. I apply the same judgement system to computer hardware I do to cars. I sell the automotive equivalent of 80386 parts to people all over the world every day for comical amounts of money. They are absolute crap by every measurable attribute, but they aren't crap, they are coveted.

I just can't look at stuff that way. The Pentium Pro is no less a great CPU today than it was years ago despite the fact that there are so many faster and better CPU's around now. The only hard fact I can find to differentiate is an old car can still do the same basic things a new car does, whereas an old CPU can't run current software. At the same time I'm puzzled by that, I do the same stuff on a PC I did five or ten or fifteen years ago, but the hardware I used then, can't do it now. It's like if a ten year old car suddenly can't go over 45mph or can't drive on certain roads. It's puzzling from a philosophical pov. I understand why an old CPU can't run modern software, but I don't completely accept that this is the way it should be.

Just like this game, to be semi-on topic, I'm fairly sure if you put a gun to the head of the people writing or re-writing this game and insisted they make it perform well on an FX, they could have. If that is so, which I strongly suspect based on how well some games and apps perform, then is it really that telling as to the quality or ability of the FX or telling of the goals of the guys writing the software? I think a more genuine interpretation is "this is how this software runs on x and y cpu's" rather than "this software runs great on x cpu and y cpu is junk". I think that latter interpretation is mighty shallow at best.

Yeah old CPUs are pretty interesting stuff, I think the guy from cpushack buys and sells chips here sometimes:

http://www.cpu-world.com/forum/

Ive sourced a few rare chips there myself, FDIV bug pentium anyone? :biggrin:
 

USER8000

Golden Member
Jun 23, 2012
1,542
780
136
I think some people are in denial about the way things are going - Intel would not be investing valuable resources into things like TSX for example!
 

Ramses

Platinum Member
Apr 26, 2000
2,871
4
81
Not doing a very good job of it if wiki is to be believed lol...

"Haswell processors below 45xx as well as R-series and K-series (with unlocked multiplier) SKUs do not support TSX.[8] In August 2014 Intel announced a bug in the TSX implementation on current steppings of Haswell, Haswell-E, Haswell-EP and early Broadwell CPUs, which resulted in disabling the TSX feature on affected CPUs via a microcode update."
 

USER8000

Golden Member
Jun 23, 2012
1,542
780
136
TSX was disabled due to a bug in the chips IIRC. It does not change what I said,Intel has invested valuable resources into developing TSX,but obviously they are clueless it appears! :awe:

The fact they developed it indicates they know how things are heading. Look at the market in 2005 and now in 2015. Good luck with your single core CPU now.
Not even smartphones or tablets running basic operations will run well using cut down OSes on a single core CPU anymore.

Intel has even cut the price of its cheapest six core offerings for consumers massively.

A Core i7 980x cost £800+ at launch in 2010 - 5 years later the Core i7 5820k costs around £300 to £320,ie around 40% of the price.

Compare that to the quad Core i7 CPUs which have not changed massively in price. Intel is obviously trying to push multi-core CPUs with 4+ cores in a more agressive way now.
 
Last edited:

Ramses

Platinum Member
Apr 26, 2000
2,871
4
81
Yeah that was the conclusion everyone came to. The tsx bug was just funny.
 

Lorne

Senior member
Feb 5, 2001
873
1
76
Has anyone tried to set affinity, Maybe force it to use only 2,4,6,8, Maybe the game is overriding the OS threading and flooding the modules and bottle necking at the FPU.
With the game remastered into the newer engine which supports more newer random calls to physics and the API sets this would also throw more work into the FPU which the org version did not have, Also the newer (newer compared to back then) API are designed to move a lot of the graphic render to the graphic card for render, Old programming overriding the newer set is still forcing it to run like the older machine.

I also wonder if the Window 7 2D to 3D lag bug affects something like this remastering, Has anyone tried to play in window mode, Old HW1 can be played in OGL or DX mode.
Recompiling is only recompiling, Not putting the team down but maybe they missed removing or updating some of the render code.
Does HW2 or remastered not support DX at all?, Its been awhile since I have had the org installed.
 
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