Homosexsuals...

[davestar]

Originally posted by: Trevelyan

Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. Nothing outside a man can make him 'unclean' by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him 'unclean.' "

well, if this isn't a prime example of Jesus condoning the act of homosexual sex, i don't know what is.

 

[Zysoclaplem]

Originally posted by: aidanjm

Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem

Originally posted by: aidanjm

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: aidanjm
...then you are an idiot.

The only idiots I meet in this world are those who think they are never wrong, and that everyone who dares to disagrees with them is never right. You are most certainly one of those btw.

The idiots I meet in this world are the people that are stupid. You are most certainly one of those, btw.

You are wrong, your position is without merit, silly, absurd, etc.

Now now boys.
Right and wrong are nothing but opinions and beliefs altered by life experiences, whether big or small.

Not talking about right and wrong, I'm talking about facts.

You said his position was silly, wrong, without merit, absurd. Sounds like opinions to me.
The fact is, no one knows for sure. Not Vic, not you, and not me.

 

[dornick]

Personally, I think sexual orientation is some combination of genes and environmental influence. There may be some choice on some level but I can't say that for sure.

The main problem with the debate is that the two sides are looking at it with two different moralities. There are the people who believe homosexual behavior (not orientation) is morally wrong, basing their beliefs on their religion. I would be classified as one of these. And then there are those who consider it fine. Now, nobody can resolve anything as long as they are using different moralities. How can somebody who thinks same-sex sex is wrong because God said so prove it to somebody who doesn't believe in God? And vice-versa? And the real kicker is that there is no overhanging system to decide which morality is better or correct. We can't convince each other, so we shout "I'm right, you're wrong, you <insult>!!!!!"

Edit: Basically saying the same thing as Zysoclaplem

 

[aidanjm]

Originally posted by: davestar

Originally posted by: Trevelyan

Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. Nothing outside a man can make him 'unclean' by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him 'unclean.' "

well, if this isn't a prime example of Jesus condoning the act of homosexual sex, i don't know what is.

Jesus also states that heterosexual marriage is not suitable for all men, and that some men are called to a different path, stating "let he that can, receive" - a clear reference to anal sex imo

 

[Zysoclaplem]

Originally posted by: dornick
Personally, I think sexual orientation is some combination of genes and environmental influence. There may be some choice on some level but I can't say that for sure.

The main problem with the debate is that the two sides are looking at it with two different moralities. There are the people who believe homosexual behavior (not orientation) is morally wrong, basing their beliefs on their religion. I would be classified as one of these. And then there are those who consider it fine. Now, nobody can resolve anything as long as they are using different moralities. How can somebody who thinks same-sex sex is wrong because God said so prove it to somebody who doesn't believe in God? And vice-versa? And the real kicker is that there is no overhanging system to decide which morality is better or correct. We can't convince each other, so we shout "I'm right, you're wrong, you <insult>!!!!!"

Exactly. Everyone is different. Everyone. The question is, why does everyone have to be right, when ultimately, there is no universal right. Right is what you believe is right. It's an opinion when it comes to something like this. Nothing more.

 

[aidanjm]

Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem

Originally posted by: aidanjm

Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem

Originally posted by: aidanjm

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: aidanjm
...then you are an idiot.

The only idiots I meet in this world are those who think they are never wrong, and that everyone who dares to disagrees with them is never right. You are most certainly one of those btw.

The idiots I meet in this world are the people that are stupid. You are most certainly one of those, btw.

You are wrong, your position is without merit, silly, absurd, etc.

Now now boys.
Right and wrong are nothing but opinions and beliefs altered by life experiences, whether big or small.

Not talking about right and wrong, I'm talking about facts.

You said his position was silly, wrong, without merit, absurd. Sounds like opinions to me.
The fact is, no one knows for sure. Not Vic, not you, and not me.

I know for sure, 100% guaranteed, that I did not consciously choose which gender I would be sexually attracted to as a teenager and adult.

I suspect that you know this is true, also. 100%.

 

[dornick]

Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem

Exactly. Everyone is different. Everyone. The question is, why does everyone have to be right, when ultimately, there is no universal right. Right is what you believe is right. It's an opinion when it comes to something like this. Nothing more.

Well, I do think there is a universal right. But I can't prove it to anyone else. About all I can do is say "I'm right, you're wrong, sorry if you get PO'd, but that's what I believe".

 

[Zysoclaplem]

Originally posted by: aidanjm

Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem

Originally posted by: aidanjm

Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem

Originally posted by: aidanjm

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: aidanjm
...then you are an idiot.

The only idiots I meet in this world are those who think they are never wrong, and that everyone who dares to disagrees with them is never right. You are most certainly one of those btw.

The idiots I meet in this world are the people that are stupid. You are most certainly one of those, btw.

You are wrong, your position is without merit, silly, absurd, etc.

Now now boys.
Right and wrong are nothing but opinions and beliefs altered by life experiences, whether big or small.

Not talking about right and wrong, I'm talking about facts.

You said his position was silly, wrong, without merit, absurd. Sounds like opinions to me.
The fact is, no one knows for sure. Not Vic, not you, and not me.

I know for sure, 100% guaranteeds, that I did not consciously choose who I would be sexually attracted to as a teenager and adult.

I suspect that you know this is true, also. 100%.

Yes, but we went through it. I don't know why I am the way I am. And neither does anyone else. But I am. If I can figure out why, what would that come to? Could I change it? Would I?

 

[Tommunist]

Originally posted by: aidanjm

Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem

Originally posted by: aidanjm

Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem

Originally posted by: aidanjm

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: aidanjm
...then you are an idiot.

The only idiots I meet in this world are those who think they are never wrong, and that everyone who dares to disagrees with them is never right. You are most certainly one of those btw.

The idiots I meet in this world are the people that are stupid. You are most certainly one of those, btw.

You are wrong, your position is without merit, silly, absurd, etc.

Now now boys.
Right and wrong are nothing but opinions and beliefs altered by life experiences, whether big or small.

Not talking about right and wrong, I'm talking about facts.

You said his position was silly, wrong, without merit, absurd. Sounds like opinions to me.
The fact is, no one knows for sure. Not Vic, not you, and not me.

I know for sure, 100% guaranteed, that I did not consciously choose which gender I would be sexually attracted to as a teenager and adult.

I suspect that you know this is true, also. 100%.

since i didn't decide to be straight it's pretty easy for me to believe you

 

[Zysoclaplem]

Originally posted by: dornick

Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem

Exactly. Everyone is different. Everyone. The question is, why does everyone have to be right, when ultimately, there is no universal right. Right is what you believe is right. It's an opinion when it comes to something like this. Nothing more.

Well, I do think there is a universal right. But I can't prove it to anyone else. About all I can do is say "I'm right, you're wrong, sorry if you get PO'd, but that's what I believe".

So you believe in a universal right? What is it? Who created it? And who created the creator of it? And did they ever disagree? Who was right? Without knowing the facts (haha facts when it comes to philosophy) nothing is ever more than an opinion.

 

[aidanjm]

Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem

Originally posted by: dornick
Personally, I think sexual orientation is some combination of genes and environmental influence. There may be some choice on some level but I can't say that for sure.

The main problem with the debate is that the two sides are looking at it with two different moralities. There are the people who believe homosexual behavior (not orientation) is morally wrong, basing their beliefs on their religion. I would be classified as one of these. And then there are those who consider it fine. Now, nobody can resolve anything as long as they are using different moralities. How can somebody who thinks same-sex sex is wrong because God said so prove it to somebody who doesn't believe in God? And vice-versa? And the real kicker is that there is no overhanging system to decide which morality is better or correct. We can't convince each other, so we shout "I'm right, you're wrong, you <insult>!!!!!"

Exactly. Everyone is different. Everyone. The question is, why does everyone have to be right, when ultimately, there is no universal right. Right is what you believe is right. It's an opinion when it comes to something like this. Nothing more.

It is correct to say that calcium builds strong bones. You can be of the opinion that you don't need any calcium in your diet, but you would be *objectively wrong* - i.e., if you ate a diet with no calcium, you would have all sorts of health problems, and no doubt die.

Similarly, people like Vic and Dornick might WISH that sexual orientation was a conscious choice, because that would dove-tail nicely with their religious beliefs. However, the SIMPLE FACT is that for a majority of people, sexual orientation was never a conscious choice. A few seconds of introspection on one's own sexual orientation can establish the sheer idiocy of claiming that sexual orientation is consciously chosen, by the way (i.e., did you choose to be attracted to females, and then find yourself attracted to females? If you chose to be sexually attracted to men, would you then actually be sexually attracted to men (following your decision)? If you decided not to be sexually attracted to women, would you no longer be sexually attracted to women? I.e., does who you are sexually attracted to lie within your conscious control?)

 

[dornick]

Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem

Originally posted by: dornick

Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem

Exactly. Everyone is different. Everyone. The question is, why does everyone have to be right, when ultimately, there is no universal right. Right is what you believe is right. It's an opinion when it comes to something like this. Nothing more.

Well, I do think there is a universal right. But I can't prove it to anyone else. About all I can do is say "I'm right, you're wrong, sorry if you get PO'd, but that's what I believe".

So you believe in a universal right? What is it? Who created it? And who created the creator of it? And did they ever disagree? Who was right? Without knowing the facts (haha facts when it comes to philosophy) nothing is ever more than an opinion.

I believe in a universal right defined by the nature of God. And yes, it is not a provable fact, but my opinion.

 

[Zysoclaplem]

Originally posted by: dornick

Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem

Originally posted by: dornick

Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem

Exactly. Everyone is different. Everyone. The question is, why does everyone have to be right, when ultimately, there is no universal right. Right is what you believe is right. It's an opinion when it comes to something like this. Nothing more.

Well, I do think there is a universal right. But I can't prove it to anyone else. About all I can do is say "I'm right, you're wrong, sorry if you get PO'd, but that's what I believe".

So you believe in a universal right? What is it? Who created it? And who created the creator of it? And did they ever disagree? Who was right? Without knowing the facts (haha facts when it comes to philosophy) nothing is ever more than an opinion.

I believe in a universal right defined by the nature of God. And yes, it is not a provable fact, but my opinion.

How can you so strongly hold to an opinion, when that's all you have? So many what ifs.
How can you ignore them, and to what purpose do you?

 

[davestar]

Originally posted by: aidanjm

Originally posted by: davestar

Originally posted by: Trevelyan

Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. Nothing outside a man can make him 'unclean' by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him 'unclean.' "

well, if this isn't a prime example of Jesus condoning the act of homosexual sex, i don't know what is.

Jesus also states that heterosexual marriage is not suitable for all men, and that some men are called to a different path, stating "let he that can, receive" - a clear reference to anal sex imo

nasty, but who am i to argue with the word of jesus?

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: aidanjm

Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem

Originally posted by: aidanjm

Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem

Originally posted by: aidanjm

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: aidanjm
...then you are an idiot.

The only idiots I meet in this world are those who think they are never wrong, and that everyone who dares to disagrees with them is never right. You are most certainly one of those btw.

The idiots I meet in this world are the people that are stupid. You are most certainly one of those, btw.

You are wrong, your position is without merit, silly, absurd, etc.

Now now boys.
Right and wrong are nothing but opinions and beliefs altered by life experiences, whether big or small.

Not talking about right and wrong, I'm talking about facts.

You said his position was silly, wrong, without merit, absurd. Sounds like opinions to me.
The fact is, no one knows for sure. Not Vic, not you, and not me.

I know for sure, 100% guaranteed, that I did not consciously choose which gender I would be sexually attracted to as a teenager and adult.

I suspect that you know this is true, also. 100%.

So? How does this opinion of yours disprove the possibility of early childhood influence? What do you know about your unconscious decisions? For example, why do you have such a need as to justify your sexuality? I've already made it extremely clear that I do not care what consenting adults do in the privacy of their own homes, yet you've felt it necessary to flame me more than anyone else here. Doesn't that tell you anything about your own motivations? It should, yaknow.

Regardless, I feel that the actual cause of homosexuality is most likely a complex set of factors dependent on the actual individual. Meaning that there is no one answer. How could there be? Maybe you were born genetically predisposed. Or maybe your experiences molded you. To me, the real question is... why is it so important? What need drives people to find a cause for other peoples' business when it is none of their business? What insecurity drives you to such a need for self-justification even when is acceptance is given? I cannot justify you, only you can do that for yourself.

 

[dornick]

Originally posted by: aidanjm
Similarly, people like Vic and Dornick might WISH that sexual orientation was a conscious choice, because that would dove-tail nicely with their religious beliefs.

I somehow knew I was going to be lumped into the "being gay is a choice" group, so I thankfully included a disclaimer. Let me refresh your memory:

Originally posted by: dornick
There may be some choice on some level but I can't say that for sure.

Read the post next time and don't make assumptions

 

[Zysoclaplem]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: aidanjm

Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem

Originally posted by: aidanjm

Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem

Originally posted by: aidanjm

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: aidanjm
...then you are an idiot.

The only idiots I meet in this world are those who think they are never wrong, and that everyone who dares to disagrees with them is never right. You are most certainly one of those btw.

The idiots I meet in this world are the people that are stupid. You are most certainly one of those, btw.

You are wrong, your position is without merit, silly, absurd, etc.

Now now boys.
Right and wrong are nothing but opinions and beliefs altered by life experiences, whether big or small.

Not talking about right and wrong, I'm talking about facts.

You said his position was silly, wrong, without merit, absurd. Sounds like opinions to me.
The fact is, no one knows for sure. Not Vic, not you, and not me.

I know for sure, 100% guaranteed, that I did not consciously choose which gender I would be sexually attracted to as a teenager and adult.

I suspect that you know this is true, also. 100%.

So? How does this opinion of yours disprove the possibility of early childhood influence? What do you know about your unconscious decisions? For example, why do you have such a need as to justify your sexuality? I've already made it extremely clear that I do not care what consenting adults do in the privacy of their own homes, yet you've felt it necessary to flame me more than anyone else here. Doesn't that tell you anything about your own motivations? It should, yaknow.

Regardless, I feel that the actual cause of homosexuality is most likely a complex set of factors dependent on the actual individual. Meaning that there is no one answer. How could there be? Maybe you were born genetically predisposed. Or maybe your experiences molded you. To me, the real question is... why is it so important? What need drives people to find a cause for other peoples' business when it is none of their business? What insecurity drives you to such a need for self-justification even when is acceptance is given? I cannot justify you, only you can do that for yourself.

Because in alot of cases, homosexuals are looked down upon. Backed into a corner, an animal will defend itself with what it has. No one wants to be attacked verbally or otherwise, and homosexuals are, unjustly. We are the way we are, in regards to defensiveness and justification, because of the way we are treated.

 

[dornick]

Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem

How can you so strongly hold to an opinion, when that's all you have? So many what ifs.
How can you ignore them, and to what purpose do you?

I never said that's all I have. I have my own proof; I couldn't convince anybody else but it is still proof for me. And I don't ignore the what ifs. I am completely open to possibility that I'm dead wrong.

I assume you would think it better to just say "I don't know what's true, so I'm not going to worry about it". To me, that's pointless. I'm interested in finding out the truth, whatever it may be.

 

[Zysoclaplem]

Originally posted by: dornick

Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem

How can you so strongly hold to an opinion, when that's all you have? So many what ifs.
How can you ignore them, and to what purpose do you?

I never said that's all I have. I have my own proof; I couldn't convince anybody else but it is still proof for me. And I don't ignore the what ifs. I am completely open to possibility that I'm dead wrong.

I assume you would think it better to just say "I don't know what's true, so I'm not going to worry about it". To me, that's pointless. I'm interested in finding out the truth, whatever it may be.

I'm sorry. I figured you were a Christian or of some religious denomination.
It's just that you can't half-ass faith. You either have it, or you don't. No doubt allowed. No second guessing. It's all or nothing. Or at least, that's the impression I had.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: dornick

Originally posted by: aidanjm
Similarly, people like Vic and Dornick might WISH that sexual orientation was a conscious choice, because that would dove-tail nicely with their religious beliefs.

I somehow knew I was going to be lumped into the "being gay is a choice" group, so I thankfully included a disclaimer. Let me refresh your memory:

Originally posted by: dornick
There may be some choice on some level but I can't say that for sure.

Read the post next time and don't make assumptions

Well... he's gone way beyond that with putting words in peoples' mouths and opinions in peoples' minds. Notice how I already pointed that my first post is this thread was that I believe sexual orientation to be an unconscious decision (i.e. early childhood impression) but he has to insist that I believe it to be a conscious decision even though I have never said that. And all that to justify religious beliefs that I, in fact, do NOT have. When have I ever said that I think homosexuality to be wrong for any type of religious or moral reason? The answer to that is NEVER. Hell, I don't even think it's wrong.

What I do think is wrong is thinking that individuals are pawns in their lives, powerless to their genes, controlled by destiny and the stars, victims of cruel fate. Basically, aidanjm wants my pity and sympathy, and he will never have that. He does have my acceptance, but that only for being gay, and not for being such an asshole.

 

[dornick]

Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem

I'm sorry. I figured you were a Christian or of some religious denomination.
It's just that you can't half-ass faith. You either have it, or you don't. No doubt allowed. No second guessing. It's all or nothing. Or at least, that's the impression I had.

I am a Christian. And AFAIK, there's nothing wrong with doubt. No doubt there are those who think blindy that they are correct and there is no other possibility, but to say that is required is just plain dumb. How could you know you are correct unless you compare your worldview to the others out there?

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: aidanjm

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
anyone that tells you it is a choice is probably basing it on their own self experience as a bisexual. closeted or not.

Is that meant to be a homophobic slight? Are you trying to demean those who believe it is choice

WHAT is a choice? Sexual orientation? Or sexual behavior? Get you're terminology right, you obfuscating fool.

Originally posted by: Vic
by alluding that they must be homosexual? Or at least engage in homosexual acts. That's seems pretty obvious, and it's also very hypocritical of you.

If you do think *sexual orientation* (i.e., who you are attracted to) is a choice, then you are either:

-stupid

-lying

or

-for you, sexual attractions to a given gender really are a matter of choice and a matter of what you choose to think about and focus on, i.e., you are bisexual and capable of experiencing attractions to both genders.

Nope. I just don't think that homosexuality is so abhorrent that people MUST have been born that way in order to justify it.
I also don't believe that people are victims to fate or genetics. Sell that to a weak mind. The gay community would have my complete support if they weren't unwittingly selling the slave agenda.

Vic, I think you are misrepresenting reality here. You are implying that there is victomization associated with ones genetic inheritance. But one has the DNA that one has. It is simply a fact. What one chooses to make of that fact is where choice comes in? You assume from the comment that 'nobody would choose to be gay' that the person stating that must feel some bias against being gay. This could be true or might not be. One can simply be looking at the facts. Nobody would choose to be born a hemophiliac either. Doesn't mean there is some subconscious hatred here. It is simply an observable fact that gays suffer profound discrimination and hemophiliacs can bleed to death. These are objective facts.

There may be gays who are so comfortable being gay that they are content to be who they are, and we can hope their numbers are many, but we are speaking from a theoretical view. A person of no sexual orientation, given a choice between being gay or straight would most likely choose being straight. It would be the choice with less problems.

I feel that you have probably distorted this issue, unconsciously, naturally, because you have some philosophical need to assume that everything is choice. My guess is that it is an important religious tenant with you. This usually goes back to the religious belief that people can be held accountable for their actions. This silly idea comports with an absolute view of the world and is held to offset the fear that everything is relative.

In fact truth is neither absolute nor relative or is actually both meaning that this paradoxical duality is only resolved in higher understanding.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem
I'm sorry. I figured you were a Christian or of some religious denomination.
It's just that you can't half-ass faith. You either have it, or you don't. No doubt allowed. No second guessing. It's all or nothing. Or at least, that's the impression I had.

Bah! The saddest thing about Christianity is that very few people believe in it, especially not most people who call themselves Christians. Christ never said one single word regarding homosexuality (although he did speak a great deal in favor of monogamy and against promiscuity, but that's another argument).
About other peoples' "sins" though, and how people are to judge one another, He said this, Matthew 7:1-5:
1 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged.
2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3 "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
4 How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?
5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

This is yet another discussion, but the next time you see a judgemental Christian, remind yourself that the only reason they are a Christian is because they choose to call themself that. Why else do you think that expound this "faith, not deeds" crap except to justify themselves to their own hypocracy?

 

[aidanjm]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: aidanjm

Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem

Originally posted by: aidanjm

Originally posted by: Zysoclaplem

Originally posted by: aidanjm

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: aidanjm
...then you are an idiot.

The only idiots I meet in this world are those who think they are never wrong, and that everyone who dares to disagrees with them is never right. You are most certainly one of those btw.

The idiots I meet in this world are the people that are stupid. You are most certainly one of those, btw.

You are wrong, your position is without merit, silly, absurd, etc.

Now now boys.
Right and wrong are nothing but opinions and beliefs altered by life experiences, whether big or small.

Not talking about right and wrong, I'm talking about facts.

You said his position was silly, wrong, without merit, absurd. Sounds like opinions to me.
The fact is, no one knows for sure. Not Vic, not you, and not me.

I know for sure, 100% guaranteed, that I did not consciously choose which gender I would be sexually attracted to as a teenager and adult.

I suspect that you know this is true, also. 100%.

So? How does this opinion of yours disprove the possibility of early childhood influence?

I'll just re-post what I said earlier about this, maybe you'll understand the second time around:

Who said anything about being born that way? I am saying adult sexual orientation is not consciously chosen. That doesn't necessarily mean you were born with it. It is just as plausible that sexual orientation is established after birth, say in the first 5 years of life. However, REGARDLESS of when it is established (before or after birth), or by what mechanism (genetics, hormones, early social/ family environment), the simple FACT remains that sexual orientation is *not consciously chosen in adulthood*. Anyone who claims that it is, is, quite simply, a fool or a liar. I.e., Vic -- I am saying you are either a FOOL or a LIAR.

What we are discussing here is whether someone CONSCIOUSLY CHOOSES their sexual orientation. And the answer to that question is no.

Originally posted by: Vic
What do you know about your unconscious decisions?

I'd be interested to hear you define "unconscious decisions", or "the unconscious" for that matter. What evidence do you have that this unconscious of yours exists?

Originally posted by: Vic
For example, why do you have such a need as to justify your sexuality?

Um, how am I "justifying my sexuality"?

This is about what is true, and what is not. It is a simple truth that most people don't consciously choose their sexual orientation.

Originally posted by: Vic
I've already made it extremely clear that I do not care what consenting adults do in the privacy of their own homes, yet you've felt it necessary to flame me more than anyone else here. Doesn't that tell you anything about your own motivations? It should, yaknow.

I find you to be dense, stupid, a fvck-wit, etc. You particularly irritate me, because you seem to pop up in all the gay threads, spouting your idiocy. I don't take kindly to sheer stupidity, I guess.

Originally posted by: Vic
Regardless, I feel that the actual cause of homosexuality is most likely a complex set of factors dependent on the actual individual. Meaning that there is no one answer. How could there be? Maybe you were born genetically predisposed. Or maybe your experiences molded you. To me, the real question is... why is it so important?

Um, whether or not sexual orientation is consciously chosen is irrelevant in terms of gay rights.

However - it is not irrelevant in terms of scientific truths: You saying sexual orientation is consciously chosen puts you on the level of some moron running about saying the earth is flat. You are a philistine. Or, someone who is simply deeply disingenuous (i.e., a liar, someone who is lying for political/ religious purposes maybe).

Originally posted by: Vic
What need drives people to find a cause for other peoples' business when it is none of their business?

Well, for one thing, it's a matter of basic scientific querying of our human natures. How our sexual orientation is formed is as legitimate a question as e.g., why some people are extroverts, why some people are good at maths, etc.

Originally posted by: Vic
What insecurity drives you to such a need for self-justification even when is acceptance is given? I cannot justify you, only you can do that for yourself.

What is this "self justification" I am engaging in?

I think you are ignorant, a dolt, a philistine.

 

[Moonbeam]

Further for the sake of greater clarity, I hope:

Vic:

"What I do think is wrong is thinking that individuals are pawns in their lives, powerless to their genes, controlled by destiny and the stars, victims of cruel fate. Basically, aidanjm wants my pity and sympathy, and he will never have that. He does have my acceptance, but that only for being gay, and not for being such an asshole."

We simply are subject to fate. The fact that you cast this reality as negative indicates that it is you who is pejoritive and not those who admit to the Real. Who is asking you to pity anyone. 'What is' simply is 'what is'. You choose to color it any way you like or not at all.