Homosexsuals...

[rickn]

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

Originally posted by: Trevelyan

I would claim that he did come back and rectify the situation... get it?

(HINT: Christians can eat pork.)

Oh, I get it... but actually, in Jesus' time, pork was still the most dangerous meat around

cuz they probably didn't cook it well and it gave them worms. nowadays we cook our food thoroughly. ya know, the bible was not written for the brightest folks on the planet.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: rickn

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

Originally posted by: Trevelyan

I would claim that he did come back and rectify the situation... get it?

(HINT: Christians can eat pork.)

Oh, I get it... but actually, in Jesus' time, pork was still the most dangerous meat around

cuz they probably didn't cook it well and it gave them worms. nowadays we cook our food thoroughly. ya know, the bible was not written for the brightest folks on the planet.

You don't need to cook the pork you buy now (disclaimer - I'm not saying you shouldn't). Largely in response to how bad uncooked pork could be, there was a strong push to make it healthier in the past century or so. Improved conditions from birth to market have made pork extremely safe

 

[GreatBarracuda]

Originally posted by: Trevelyan
I would claim that he did come back and rectify the situation... get it?

(HINT: Christians can eat pork.)

I don't know much about this subject from the Christian perspective. However, if pork was forbidden for the Jews and Jesus didn't come to change but to reaffirm the Old Testament, then isn't the law still binding on Christians?

 

[imported_Tango]

Why it happens? because they like people of the same sex. That's it.
Moreover, sexual preferences are not separated cells, but a continuum. Some people only like people of the opposite sex, others like both, others only people of the same sex. Some people like to be bound, or spanked or like to pretend to be a doctor. Some like to be swingers, some others like to have sex with strangers. All these attitudes are perfectly fine, and have no other reason why but the fact that each of us want to have fun and be happy, and realize sexual fantasies, and each of us has different fantasies.

I never had gay sex, but I agree that some kind of omosexual desire is in all of us. Most guys will never try it because the phisical realization of this desire is considered scary, or immoral... but a HUGE majority of the girls I know has had some kind of omosexual experience when a teenager, yet don't consider themselves gay.

No matter what you like, as long as it's consensual, go ahead and be happy the way you prefer.

 

[judasmachine]

why does it need to be a defect, or a disease? i don't see how it's a negative thing. it's not something i'm terribly interested in, but if that floats their boat then hey.

 

[Trevelyan]

Originally posted by: GreatBarracuda

Originally posted by: Trevelyan
I would claim that he did come back and rectify the situation... get it?

(HINT: Christians can eat pork.)

I don't know much about this subject from the Christian perspective. However, if pork was forbidden for the Jews and Jesus didn't come to change but to reaffirm the Old Testament, then isn't the law still binding on Christians?

Jesus said he came to "fulfill" the scriptures of the Old Testament... basically, the Old Testament has a lot of laws written only for certain people in certain time periods. This is the most common Christian interpretation, and is pretty straight forward if you study the actual scriptures.

As far as keeping kosher, there was a debate in early Christianity over whether gentiles had to convert to Judaism before becoming Christians, but Paul said that circumcision and things meant for the Jews of the time were not binding on non-Jews. After not much time this was the official position of the early Christian communities.

 

[0roo0roo]

anyone that tells you it is a choice is probably basing it on their own self experience as a bisexual. closeted or not.

 

[GreatBarracuda]

Originally posted by: Trevelyan
Jesus said he came to "fulfill" the scriptures of the Old Testament... basically, the Old Testament has a lot of laws written only for certain people in certain time periods. This is the most common Christian interpretation, and is pretty straight forward if you study the actual scriptures.

No disagreement on that.

Originally posted by: Trevelyan
As far as keeping kosher, there was a debate in early Christianity over whether gentiles had to convert to Judaism before becoming Christians, but Paul said that circumcision and things meant for the Jews of the time were not binding on non-Jews. After not much time this was the official position of the early Christian communities.

Is Christianity the teachings of Paul or Jesus? Show me what Jesus said about this.



Consider the following:

"And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you. Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they are unclean to you."

Leviticus 11:7-8

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets ... Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven ..."

Matthew 5:17-19



What does that tell you?

 

[aidanjm]

Originally posted by: GreatBarracuda
Is Christianity the teachings of Paul or Jesus? Show me what Jesus said about this.

Liberals follow the teachings of Jesus, conservatives are addicted to the perverted version of Christianity put forward by Paul.

 

[Trevelyan]

Originally posted by: GreatBarracuda
Show me what Jesus said about this.

Consider the following:

"And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you. Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they are unclean to you."

Leviticus 11:7-8

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets ... Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven ..."

Matthew 5:17-19

What does that tell you?

Here is what Jesus said on the matter:

Mark 7:9-15

"You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother,'and, 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban' (that is, a gift devoted to God), then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that."

Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. Nothing outside a man can make him 'unclean' by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him 'unclean.' "

The restriction of diet is found in Leviticus chapter 11, and lays out restrictions meant for the nation of Israel. They were never meant for anyone else, and Jesus himself taught that all foods were clean. It is based on what Jesus said that Christians don't avoid pork and have other diet restrictions.

 

[totalcommand]

Who gives a crap about christianity. It has nothing to do with what makes a person gay.

It's pretty obvious to me. There are probably hundreds of genes, working together, some of which that are linked and some that are not linked on the same chromosome, and they combine to give a predisposition to being gay. Environment takes over from there.

 

[arsbanned]

Originally posted by: Stunt
Are you religious?...how did religion get in your head?
Or better, why are you conservative/liberal?
How do you determine morality?

Hmm, slippery slope? You're equating homosexuality to softdrink preference or any other off- the- cuff selection and as such subject to change.
Is that what the current thinking is?

Edit: Sorry to weigh in so late. I only ran across this thread today. My bad.

 

[imported_tss4]

Originally posted by: Trevelyan

Seriously, I can't continue this "conversation" with you. In fact, this isn't even a conversation at all because you simply are refusing to listen to what I am saying.

You are incorrect in your assumptions about Christianity. You very well may have been raised a certain way, but it is very obvious that your opinions are not lined up correctly with the official sanctioned beliefs of the various Christian churches across the globe. The idea that somehow the "significant and growing minority" of Christians are going to change the views of the Christian community on this issue are proposterous. Homosexuality, despite what you may think due to our current American culture, IS NOT A RECENT MOVEMENT. It has been an issue since the birth of Christianity and before, and over 2,000 years has not changed this and I think you are making a big stretch to claim that it will.

If you do not think that homosexuality has become more accepted in the last 20 years in American culture than you are divorcing yourself of reality. Any poll on the topic would support my claim. I also never siad they were going to change the views of chrsitians. I said each generation has become progressively more liberal on this issue and as such, it is only a matter of time.

As for the turmoil surrounding the anglican church, you clearly have not payed attention to events involving them recently. I made the point that not all christians believe as you do (that homosexuality is wrong) and I am correct in that statement.



Listen to me; I am going to try to make this very simple for you. People do not agree that someone who is "gay" merely has homosexual desire. That is ONE DEFINITION THAT IS BY FAR NOT UNIVERSAL. It may be very popular in AT P&N but I'm sure you are aware a world outside of this forum exists. But you might not be aware that this world is vastly different from what you find here.

Hey, big guy, you need to relax. I don't understand why you feel so threatened. I'm not referring to my experience on this board at all. I do find this board to be quite different from the rest of the world, but I am speaking from direct experience on the beliefs of christianity.

In this "real world" Christians do not approve of homosexual acts, and when they call someone a "homosexual" they are implying that they engage in homosexual acts. This is not a big logical jump to make. In fact, it's quite easy to understand.

But, what I really want to say is Why are you arguing so fiercly over this definitionwhen I am trying to explain to you that I agree with your position on desire vs. act?

Like I said, I'm not clever enough enough to have come up with that definition, It came stratight from the catholic preists and was borrowed by the protestants. And I have no idea why you feel the need to criticize my arguement for making the same distinction that you yourself do.

Your last claim about the "contradiction" is ridiculous, because my posts have been saying there is a very real difference between desire and action. I have never claimed otherwise, so I'd appreciate it if you would not incinuate that I am.

You didn't read what I said. I said you find it ok to distiniguish between desire and action but yet I am being unreasonable by doing so.

Lastly, speaking from one christian to another. You need to relax. This is suppose to be a freindly conversation, but your tone and use of language clearly indicates how hostile you are. I'm not sorry to question some of the foundations by which you support your beliefs. I only present the facts and in a discussion forum, I would assume that we are all mature enough to discuss them rationally without becoming hostile when some one presents facts that do no reflect well upon our position.

Anyway, I hope you have a great day.

 

[Trevelyan]

Originally posted by: tss4
If you do not think that homosexuality has become more accepted in the last 20 years in American culture than you are divorcing yourself of reality. Any poll on the topic would support my claim. I also never siad they were going to change the views of chrsitians. I said each generation has become progressively more liberal on this issue and as such, it is only a matter of time.

I agree and never said to the contrary that homosexuality is now more socially accepted than in the past in America. This is undeniable and very obvious and I never said this was not true. However, just because the past twenty years have shown a trend in Christianity does not mean you can extrapolate that data to extend ahead in time. This trend is not something that hasn't been seen in the past. Fluctuations between more liberal and conservative views come and go, but the vast majority of the Christian world (>99%) has never accepted homosexuality, simply because the Bible is so obviously opposed to that lifestyle. It is not "a matter of time" as you are claiming; that is an unfair and impossible to debate claim, because it is a prediction, not a fact.

Originally posted by: tss4
As for the turmoil surrounding the anglican church, you clearly have not payed attention to events involving them recently. I made the point that not all christians believe as you do (that homosexuality is wrong) and I am correct in that statement.

I am aware of these changes, and they are highly controversial for a reason. Indeed, I don't expect all Christians to believe as I do, and I dont know what all Christians believe, but this doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of the Christian community is not even debating this issue at all because it has already been decided by the Bible.

Originally posted by: tss4
Hey, big guy, you need to relax. I don't understand why you feel so threatened. I'm not referring to my experience on this board at all. I do find this board to be quite different from the rest of the world, but I am speaking from direct experience on the beliefs of christianity.

It's not that I feel "threatened" but I do like to clear up misinformation when given the chance. I'm sure you have direct experience with Christianity, but your own persoanl beliefs do not alter the reality of the situation, and that will never change. We should strive to conform our beliefs to those of Jesus, not try to shape him to fit us. The simple fact is 99% of the official positions of Christian churches is that homosexual acts are not permissable.

Originally posted by: tss4
Like I said, I'm not clever enough enough to have come up with that definition, It came stratight from the catholic preists and was borrowed by the protestants. And I have no idea why you feel the need to criticize my arguement for making the same distinction that you yourself do.

I'm not criticizing your arguements, but your definitions are not universal and you seem to be claiming that they are. I'm simply pointing out this mistake because it is confusing, and because a lot of people do not think of the definition you are using when you use the word "gay". It's just word usage, nothing more, nothing to get heated about.

Originally posted by: tss4
You didn't read what I said. I said you find it ok to distiniguish between desire and action but yet I am being unreasonable by doing so.

I do not think you are being unreasonable to distinguish between the two. Not at all.

Originally posted by: tss4
Lastly, speaking from one christian to another. You need to relax. This is suppose to be a freindly conversation, but your tone and use of language clearly indicates how hostile you are. I'm not sorry to question some of the foundations by which you support your beliefs. I only present the facts and in a discussion forum, I would assume that we are all mature enough to discuss them rationally without becoming hostile when some one presents facts that do no reflect well upon our position.

I am not hostile, and I have not attacked anyone. I'm not sure how text can have a tone, but I apologize if you felt like I was attacking you for your beliefs, because that is not my intention. I'm glad you are a Christian, but like everyone else we are susceptable to error and I don't even claim my own views are infallible. But there are some things we can know and be sure of, and we shouldn't shy away from these conclusions if they are true simply because of the social climate of our day. Humans change, yes, but God's morality is unchanging.

I appreciate the discussions, but just be aware that you are presenting both fact and opinion, and to confuse the two is to ask for an arguement.

Originally posted by: tss4
Anyway, I hope you have a great day.

You too. I don't intend to argue with you and I'm sorry if I came across as hostile. I apologize if I did not choose my words better, but I hope we can continue to have these dicussions in the future.

 

[dahunan]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

I know a couple gay people they did not choose this.

Well, I guess that settles it. :disgust:

There is a very low incidence of homosexuality among Asians. I guess they lack the "gay gene".

What Causes Homosexual Desire and Can It Be Changed?

Cultural Expression... is the key difference in your racial comparison.

 

[imported_tss4]

Originally posted by: Trevelyan
You too. I don't intend to argue with you and I'm sorry if I came across as hostile. I apologize if I did not choose my words better, but I hope we can continue to have these dicussions in the future.

Nice post.

Would like to make a point though in reference to:

"the vast majority of the Christian community is not even debating this issue at all because it has already been decided by the Bible. "

That is simply not true. Its a very active debate currently in many churches. The reason, is that the Bible, is for all intenets and purposes often vague and conflicting. I don't want to get into pointing out specific examples of conflicting passages (as well as those that no christian follows anymore) because I feel it is beneath this dsicussion, but I do think that there are passages in the bible that the translation should not be taken literal.

I'll give you my favorite example. Creation in Genesis.

Yes, you could take Genesis to mean that the earth was literally created in seven days, but if you stepped back for a minute and realized these were visions passed to people of biblical times that were trying to make sense of them without current scientific knowledge, then you can see how a non literal interpretation fits scientific evidence almost perfectly. Seriously, imagine yourself devoid of all modern scientific knowledge and then have someone present pictures of the big bang and the resulting evolution of animals. Its absolutely amazing as to the accuateness of Genesis if you are willing to realize that days might merely mean passage of time and the statement "then god created" to decribe the evolutionary relationship. Anyway, I digress.

I was simply making the point that the bible is not always to be taken literally, and that as much as conservative christians want to claim to always follow the literal interpreation of the bible, they do not. The bible is gods word and as such, beyond our total understanding. No man can know exactly what he meant. So of course its been decided by the bible but our understanding of the texts is in question and that's why there most certainly is a modest but growing debate in the church on this.

 

[aidanjm]

Originally posted by: dahunan

Originally posted by: Riprorin

I know a couple gay people they did not choose this.

Well, I guess that settles it. :disgust:

There is a very low incidence of homosexuality among Asians. I guess they lack the "gay gene".

What Causes Homosexual Desire and Can It Be Changed?

Cultural Expression... is the key difference in your racial comparison.

Is it really true there is a low incidence of homosexuality among Asians, tho? I see plenty of Asian people in the gay community, it's not like they are a rarity.

 

[Deptacon]

Originally posted by: Stunt
My favorite color is green, what is yours...
It's all in preference, it's not a disease, illness, addiction or anything like that.
It's a preference that has been seen in nature and throughout our history.
Fortunately it is getting to be publically accepted and people are able to freely discuss how they truly feel.

its genetic, therefore nothing wrong with it

 

[Deptacon]

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: ntdz
It's a genetic defect. Very simple.

genetic difference, yes.

i wouldnt cal lit a defect, its just genetics

 

[dahunan]

Originally posted by: aidanjm

Originally posted by: dahunan

Originally posted by: Riprorin

I know a couple gay people they did not choose this.

Well, I guess that settles it. :disgust:

There is a very low incidence of homosexuality among Asians. I guess they lack the "gay gene".

What Causes Homosexual Desire and Can It Be Changed?

Cultural Expression... is the key difference in your racial comparison.

Is it really true there is a low incidence of homosexuality among Asians, tho? I see plenty of Asian people in the gay community, it's not like they are a rarity.

When he mentioned Asians .. I thought of their Nations Culture... not like it is in America... Asian countries still have some very high and strict morals to uphold... and much shame and suicide when they do something outside of the norm that could embarass their family or their cultural soul...

 

[MowSow]

Originally posted by: Deptacon

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: ntdz
It's a genetic defect. Very simple.

genetic difference, yes.

I wouldn?t call it a defect, its just genetics

Guys .. get it right .. the term is MUTATION (change in the DNA sequence) ?Genetic Mutation-.. some are good some are bad .. without mutations, there will be no life on this planet, as natural selection would not exist.
It is a survival method for the genes .. after all, every life from on this planet is nothing but a vehicle that serves the ultimate structure of life, the DNA ... all of us are nothing more than tools for the DAN that made us in order to reproduce ..

So in conclusion, homosexuality could be normal or genetic, because it will defy the purpose of our existence, which is to be a reproductive tool for the DNA (or RNA is some life forms, like viruses)

This is just my personal analysis, it is both scientific and philosophical.

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: MowSow

Originally posted by: Deptacon

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: ntdz
It's a genetic defect. Very simple.

genetic difference, yes.

I wouldn?t call it a defect, its just genetics

Guys .. get it right .. the term is MUTATION (change in the DNA sequence) ?Genetic Mutation-.. some are good some are bad .. without mutations, there will be no life on this planet, as natural selection would not exist.
It is a survival method for the genes .. after all, every life from on this planet is nothing but a vehicle that serves the ultimate structure of life, the DNA ... all of us are nothing more than tools for the DAN that made us in order to reproduce ..

So in conclusion, homosexuality could be normal or genetic, because it will defy the purpose of our existence, which is to be a reproductive tool for the DNA (or RNA is some life forms, like viruses)

This is just my personal analysis, it is both scientific and philosophical.

Don't take this the wrong way, but do you have any evidence of this? I really want some links of the subject for future reference.

 

[Piobaireachd]

Originally posted by: Tabb
This is really confusing me, if being "gay" isn't a defect or a disease... Than what is it exactly? Why are some people "gay" and others not? I know being gay is NOT a choice, I know a couple gay people they did not choose this.

I've been told it's like being "alcholic" some people are just more suspectible to becoming a alcholic than others....

Hopefully someone can help me out here..

It's abhorrent and deviant sexual behavior. No, it is not "ok" or "normal".

 

[nageov3t]

Originally posted by: Piobaireachd
No, it is not "ok".

why not?

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Piobaireachd

Originally posted by: Tabb
This is really confusing me, if being "gay" isn't a defect or a disease... Than what is it exactly? Why are some people "gay" and others not? I know being gay is NOT a choice, I know a couple gay people they did not choose this.

I've been told it's like being "alcholic" some people are just more suspectible to becoming a alcholic than others....

Hopefully someone can help me out here..

It's abhorrent and deviant sexual behavior. No, it is not "ok" or "normal".

Oh look, another morally-righteous bigot.