Hopkins meta study show Covid lock downs nearly useless

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nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
58,574
12,875
136
The "working paper" (which is apparently what that is) wasn't "by" the university, it was "by" the three conservative economists who complied and wrote it. Seems to be a journal associated with the "Johns Hopkins Institute for Applied Economics", some sort of institution founded by a leading light of the Cato Institute and associated with Johns Hopkins University.

Note it itself says:

"The views expressed in each working paper are those of the authors and not necessarily those of the institutions that the authors are affiliated with. "
Well, that does cast an interesting light on things.

Also:
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,298
8,213
136
Lord, looking at that guy's wiki entry - that is the Curriculum-Vitae of a paradigmatic member of the global ruling class.
 
Reactions: iRONic and Pohemi

abj13

Golden Member
Jan 27, 2005
1,071
902
136
I can't wait for bona fide statisticians to really dig into this "research." Some interesting and perhaps very troubling observations from this analysis:

1) This isn't peer reviewed. While peer review isn't perfect, as one will see with my additional points, they would absolutely get shredded if they submitted this research to a bona fide scientific journal.

2) The authors love to rewrite papers to justify their own conclusions. For example:

The authors state on page 15: "Some studies find a significant positive relationship between lockdowns and mortality. This includes Chisadza et al. (2021), who find that stricter lockdowns (higher OxCGRT stringency index) increases COVID-19 mortality by 0.01 deaths/million per stringency point."

What did the study by Chisadza state?
From the abstract: " Using the Oxford COVID-19 Government Response Tracker (OxCGRT) dataset for a global sample of countries between March and September 2020, we find a non-linear association between government response indices and the number of deaths. Less stringent interventions increase the number of deaths, whereas more severe responses to the pandemic can lower fatalities."

From the discussion: "We find that the overall government response index has a non-linear association with the number of deaths—driven by the containment and health interventions—for the aggregated sample of countries. The number of deaths increases with partially relaxed lockdown restrictions, but decreases with severe restrictions."

Uh oh, that doesn't look right...

3) The authors like to cherry pick data. For example, as with #2, the authors didn't like the conclusions of of the Chisadza et al study. Why? Chisadza found their data was giving nonsensical results. In their original linear model, they identified that all government interventions, including health measures (testing policy, contact tracing, public information campaigns, and investments in vaccines and healthcare) increased the risk of death. Think about that. Does that make sense to anyone? Of course not. And Chisadza agreed with that. So they redid their analysis with a nonlinear model and now the data made sense. In fact, they found there was a significant effect of various measures of government triggered closures and shutdowns.

But the economists didn't like these results. They did some handwaving, and used the result that suggested
government triggered closures and shutdowns increase death.

4) The authors purposely normalize the data to reduce the effect of government led interventions. See page 29. The authors explain how they analyzed the stringency data. The stringency score that is at the center of their analysis is a scale of 0-100, with 0 being no shutdowns of anything by the government, and 100 being complete shutdown of everything. Look carefully what they did, as laid out on page 29. For example, they discuss the data from one study (Ashraf et al). During that time period the US had a stringency score of 74. Except the authors do some more hand waving, saying the US should have only had a stringency score of 44, because the US was not following "policy solely based on recommendations." WTF does that mean? They apparently have some magic recommendation of what the US should be doing.

So everything in Table 3 of their write-up is not comparing no shutdowns vs shutdowns with how many lives were saved. They are calculating how many lives were saved based on what the countries actually enacted above some "recommendation" they made up for each country.

To put that another way. Imagine someone was trying to figure out the tallest tree in the world. One way would be to define how far a tree rises above ground. That's objective. But what the authors are doing here is trying to we shouldn't include the trunk in the calculations and should only count how high the branches rise above the end of the trunk because all trees have a trunk. In the end, using this analysis, someone would end up concluding that all trees are shorter than what has been published in the past. It is absurd and non-objective, and purposely distorts the data in their favor.

5) Weight. Look again at Table 3. The big result of Table 3 is their "precision-weighted average." How did they calculate that? Well, its based on weighing each study in how confident they are in their calculation (weight calculation where 1/SE). Look at what study they weigh the highest. Wow, its the Chisadza et al study where the authors already reject the conclusions, purposely use the wrong model, and in the end, use that study as the foundation of their analysis. If they really did think the Chisadza paper is messed up, why even bother including it in their study??? Its because they warp the data to support their own conclusions.

For some of the studies analyzed, it isn't even clear how the authors derived the error calculations. What was that term from 20 years ago? Fuzzy math, right?

So not only are their "precision-weighted average" wrong (see point #4), they purposely based it primarily on a study they think is crap. Lastly, look what the unweighted average/median show. They do show the possibility of a significant effect. Hmmm.

6) This study is an analysis of how many lives could be saved under the conditions enacted by a country. What this analysis doesn't AND cannot demonstrate, is how many more lives would have been saved if countries enacted MORE stringent policies. And given how they normalize the data as described in my point #4, they purposely underestimate the effects of shutdowns.

7) Lastly think about what the authors are trying to say. The argument for shutdowns has been primarily to avoid overloading the healthcare system. The authors purposely reject looking at reasonable measures for the effectiveness of shutdowns, including the number of cases or hospitalizations. More cherry-picking.

I will happily await further analyses that will identify further problems that will expose how shitty this "analysis" is.
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,722
6,201
126
According to the way my brain works if the world had locked down, really locked down in the first few months of the pandemic, the virus would be extinct.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,292
28,147
136
I don't have a problem with John Hopkins but I have a few points.

Like others have pointed out we never really went into lockdown because too many people refused to cooperate. All the pro-lifers want their freedumbs to sacrifice their lives to covid.

This study doesn't mean we did the wrong thing. We acted and continue to act on the best information we had at the time.

If given the choice to trust Donald Trump, Ron DeSantis or Dr Fauci, I'm still choosing Fauci. The first 2 are the only ones who have outright lied.

I want to see this study flushed out more.
 

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,658
5,228
136
The only lockdowns that truly seem to work after the highly aggressive and draconian lockdowns China does. They have very few deaths. However, what they can do is pretty unique to China.

Lockdowns and travel restrictions are pretty useless countermeasures, however I don't know what better option we had at the initial outbreak.

We knew little of the virus, did not know how to treat severe cases, and we had horrific scenes at the hospitals.

There is lockdowns by govt decree, and there are shutdowns because people are terrified and don't want to risk death. The second is going to happen no matter what the govt says.
 
Jul 9, 2009
10,723
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I am sure all those that is gonna catch Omicron instead of Delta or the original variant is pretty happy with delaying the inevitable.

Taj, go see the doc, your brain tumor is acting up again.
Says the "citizen of Europe" (Germany) that wanted to tattoo numbers on the arms of people that refuse the vaccine.
 
Jul 9, 2009
10,723
2,064
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Switzerland had lockdowns.
COVID spread slowly in Switzerland.
Sweden let people run around like normal.
Sweden had horrible outbreaks all thru the last two years.

Maybe the problem is Johns Hopkins.
Maybe the problem IS TAJ FUCKING MAHAL!
Your usual reaction is to get a rope, it's what mobs do.
 
Jul 9, 2009
10,723
2,064
136
The only lockdowns that truly seem to work after the highly aggressive and draconian lockdowns China does. They have very few deaths. However, what they can do is pretty unique to China.

Lockdowns and travel restrictions are pretty useless countermeasures, however I don't know what better option we had at the initial outbreak.

We knew little of the virus, did not know how to treat severe cases, and we had horrific scenes at the hospitals.

There is lockdowns by govt decree, and there are shutdowns because people are terrified and don't want to risk death. The second is going to happen no matter what the govt says.
Another Red China fan. It figures.
 
Jul 9, 2009
10,723
2,064
136
The only reason i posted this meta study from John Hopkins is because it would never have been posted at all in this forum if one of the few remaining conservatives didn't post it.


 

Pohemi

Diamond Member
Oct 2, 2004
9,376
12,776
146
Says the "citizen of Europe" (Germany) that wanted to tattoo numbers on the arms of people that refuse the vaccine.
Your usual reaction is to get a rope, it's what mobs do.
Another Red China fan. It figures.
The truly spectacular fascism of the Sheik, the best part is you're to stupid to even know it.
The only reason i posted this meta study from John Hopkins is because...
...is because you tried to misrepresent what it stated, like you always do. You use shit sources (this was not a Johns Hopkins study, it was an analysis of other studies by unqualified jokers) and try to build false "gotchya" moments that fall flat on their face.

You aren't ever honest about your claims. I find it sadly amusing that you think your threads and posts and claims somehow won't get picked apart with tweezers by the rest of P&N. It's pathetic and I would think you'd learn your lesson by now, so you're incredibly stupid and/or just a troll.
 
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pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,298
8,213
136
The only lockdowns that truly seem to work after the highly aggressive and draconian lockdowns China does. They have very few deaths. However, what they can do is pretty unique to China.

China's numbers are probably completely unreliable anyway. So who really knows if their draconian form of lockdown works?


There is lockdowns by govt decree, and there are shutdowns because people are terrified and don't want to risk death. The second is going to happen no matter what the govt says.

Well yeah, exactly.
 
Reactions: Pohemi
Jul 9, 2009
10,723
2,064
136
Keep up with the lie there were no lockdowns, it's so amusing for me.

‘A rose by any other name would smell as sweet’
 

BD:)

Banned
Jul 21, 2021
13
13
41
The only reason i posted this meta study from John Hopkins is because it would never have been posted at all in this forum if one of the few remaining conservatives didn't post it.


It's Johns Hopkins. John Hopkins is a motorcycle racer.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,722
6,201
126
I don't really know. It's just a University of John Hopkins meta study. I'm sure you can blame anyone in the world you want to, even if they carry no fault.
Couldn’t I also just as easily conflate sheltering recommendations suggested to avoid exposure by medical experts with the lock-down I experienced when Mommy sent me to my room after getting caught playing with my sick?
 
Reactions: Pohemi and dank69

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,131
5,659
126
Here's the wiki entry of the guy who founded that instutite (and is also one of the three co-authors). I don't feel a lot of confidence that he's a neutral, objective analyst of the issue.

Not that that 'proves' the paper wrong, but I'd want to see someone with credentials in the field of public health that I trusted, review it before it seems like anything other than very erudite propaganda. Economists do seem to love "analysing" things out of their expertise (e.g climate change), and their conclusions always seem to mysteriously accord with their political agenda.


aka, Appeal to Authority fallacy. The favourite fallacy for Creationists and other Science Deniers since forever.
 
Reactions: Pohemi

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,292
28,147
136
Why does the report only include the US and Europe? Like gun violence this country leads the world in a lot of shitty things.

I want to see the numbers from Australia. I think they had the strictest lockdowns.
 
Reactions: Pohemi

rmacd02

Senior member
Nov 24, 2015
228
219
116
Why does the report only include the US and Europe? Like gun violence this country leads the world in a lot of shitty things.

I want to see the numbers from Australia. I think they had the strictest lockdowns.
Well, that would skew it in the wrong direction, donchanow.
 
Reactions: Pohemi

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
23,561
13,122
136
Says the "citizen of Europe" (Germany) that wanted to tattoo numbers on the arms of people that refuse the vaccine.

"Mandates only regulate a fraction of our potential contagious contacts and can hardly regulate nor enforce handwashing, coughing etiquette, distancing in supermarkets, etc. Countries like Denmark, Finland, and Norway that realized success in keeping COVID-19 mortality rates relatively low allowed people to go to work, use public transport, and meet privately at home during the first lockdown. In these countries, there were ample opportunities to legally meet with others. "

- Why? Cause they dont have a taj. Dont be a taj.
 

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,658
5,228
136
Another Red China fan. It figures.

You dope, go look at the data, it actually supports your position.

Chinese-style effective lockdowns means govt kidnappings and forced mass testing and quarantine.

Completely unacceptable and impossible in any free society, so following that model doesn't end in similar results.

China did contain the initial outbreak very well, and Western countries followed that lead but with concepts of "rights" and "choice" and it didn't work.

It says we have to be realistic of what's possible in our society, and kubuki half measures just piss people off.

Another model to look at is New Zealand, but that's also something that's probably unique to New Zealand. You could never do that in New York.
 
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Reactions: Pohemi
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