Hostility in the GPU Space?

[AverageGamer]

I also think the more technically-minded people have shifted to other sites. There are still some very good threads full of excellent information and level-headed discussion, but they seem fewer from years past.

Genuinely curious, what sites are you referring to?

 

[master_shake_]

You're looking at efficiency/power consumption through a very narrow perspective. The TDP of a card affects how big the heatsink has to be, how fast (and therefore loud) the fans have to be to cool it under load. It affects the quantity of power delivery electronics required to feed the GPU. It affects how big and powerful your PSU needs to be. It affects how important case airflow is.

The more efficient a card is, the more frames you'll get without changing any of these factors to cater to a new, higher power card.

Power consumption is not only about the cost of electricity.

But it's fine, this is how forum arguments are started. Narrow perspective.

none of that matters because all of it is out of your control anyway.

also a 450 watt power supply is enough to run almost every (dual gpu cards not included) video card available.

and the only loud coolers on the market are reference or founders edition coolers.

every single third party cooler has bigger and quieter fans.

 

[boozzer]

I blame it on millennials.

hey hey, not fair, I am one of those super, super logical millennials. don't kick all of us with a broad sweep

I suspect that a part of the reason is that as prices have gone up, the literal investment in a person's choice of cards increases as well. Since people are more financially invested in the cards, there is also an increased need to rationalize that they made the right choice. A more intense emotional investment occurs as well since the stakes for having made a right or wrong choice are greater.

All of this leads to more passion, and a more fervent defense of the choice that the person made. Since there are many possible "right" choices, depending on the person's individual preferences and circumstances, getting people who may have made the right choice for them to agree that their choice could be "wrong" for someone else is becoming harder.

Start with that, then mix in some corporate marketing, add in some internet anonymity and stir with a dash or two of trolls and you've got a pretty combustible environment.

damn, that is a pretty accurate picture.

 

[Headfoot]

Hostility on the forums stems from certain posters intentionally misleading others due to an irrational, emotional bias towards their favored company.

People systematically lying on a board where uninformed posters come for advice makes honest people angry.

 

[whm1974]

Personally I think folks should whatever brand that meets their needs at the prices they are willing to pay.

 

[poofyhairguy]

Personally I think folks should whatever brand that meets their needs at the prices they are willing to pay.

Amen! That is what I think the primary problem is- we can't (refuse) to see any perspective but our own.

Personally I only care about sub-$400 cards (used to be $200) and I want what gives me the best perf/$. Someone else might want the top performance at any price and I respect that. Someone else wants the card that can mine the most profitably and I respect that. Someone else might want a cheaper card that is only good in WOW and I respect that. Someone might want the card that heats up their house less and I respect that.

It feels like somewhere along the way we lost the ability to see other perspectives to the point where mutual respect is lost. As it's pointed out AMD and Nvidia don't overlap much anymore so you would think we could agree more than ever.

Should had seen the late 90s with 3DFX vs Nvidia vs ATI vs Matrox.

I was there. That was my peak point in life for PC gaming. I owned a Voodoo 2, TNT 2 and Geforce 2.

I remember the 3DFX people were pretty defensive, and the Geforce with its hardware T&L created a debate about "3D accelerators vs 3D decelerators."

I don't remember the vitriol though. Maybe that is due to rose colored glasses.

 

[Headfoot]

Amen! That is what I think the primary problem is- we can't (refuse) to see any perspective but our own.

Personally I only care about sub-$400 cards (used to be $200) and I want what gives me the best perf/$. Someone else might want the top performance at any price and I respect that. Someone else wants the card that can mine the most profitably and I respect that. Someone else might want a cheaper card that is only good in WOW and I respect that. Someone might want the card that heats up their house less and I respect that.

It feels like somewhere along the way we lost the ability to see other perspectives to the point where mutual respect is lost. As it's pointed out AMD and Nvidia don't overlap much anymore so you would think we could agree more than ever.

I see where you're coming from. People can value different metrics -- this is absolutely true. Some people want the fastest and have the budget to get it. Totally fine - not what I do but I can fully respect that.

But there are limits.

When someone says they're buying a card because it saves them 40 watts, I very much doubt that is really the concern. The fact of the matter is that for these metrics that were never traditionally important that suddenly become important because one side is winning, the reason is a smoke screen to deflect from the real purchasing rationale. Which is emotional and irrational company tribalism.

Posters have gotten smart to the fact that buying based on tribalism is indefensible, so they make mountains out of molehills to maintain some facade of reasonableness and impartiality. I refuse to be taken in by these lies. Wattage is just one of the many smoke screens deployed by both tribes. At some point async compute is a smoke screen. VRAM has been a smoke screen repeatedly for both sides depending on who was ahead. The sad part is there is a small minority of people who actually did care about these things before a particular tribe was good at it. And now those people seem like emotional tribalists at first blush because the partisans are co-opting their rationales. In the early days of Apple vs Android you saw tons of this garbage.

I respect people that value different metrics. I do not respect, and I refuse to respect, people who make mountains out of molehills to cover for the fact they actually want to buy their favorite company's product due to an emotional sense of loyalty.

 

[Elfear]

I see where you're coming from. People can value different metrics -- this is absolutely true. Some people want the fastest and have the budget to get it. Totally fine - not what I do but I can fully respect that.

But there are limits.

When someone says they're buying a card because it saves them 40 watts, I very much doubt that is really the concern. The fact of the matter is that for these metrics that were never traditionally important that suddenly become important because one side is winning, the reason is a smoke screen to deflect from the real purchasing rationale. Which is emotional and irrational company tribalism.

Posters have gotten smart to the fact that buying based on tribalism is indefensible, so they make mountains out of molehills to maintain some facade of reasonableness and impartiality. I refuse to be taken in by these lies. Wattage is just one of the many smoke screens deployed by both tribes. At some point async compute is a smoke screen. VRAM has been a smoke screen repeatedly for both sides depending on who was ahead. The sad part is there is a small minority of people who actually did care about these things before a particular tribe was good at it. And now those people seem like emotional tribalists at first blush because the partisans are co-opting their rationales. In the early days of Apple vs Android you saw tons of this garbage.

I respect people that value different metrics. I do not respect, and I refuse to respect, people who make mountains out of molehills to cover for the fact they actually want to buy their favorite company's product due to an emotional sense of loyalty.

Excellent post!

And this phenomenon happens on both sides which is why there is such contention and hostility.

 

[Headfoot]

To add even more, being a fanboy isn't even necessarily a bad thing. Being open about being a fanboy isn't even necessarily a bad thing. There are plenty of websites out there where people are fans of incredibly specific models of average commuter cars. You can go find a 2002-2007 body model Honda Accord enthusiast forums out there. They aren't acting like their attachment to that car is rational. They know it isn't but don't care.

The fundamental problem isn't being a fanboy, but holding yourself out as if you are not.

So if a member is a fanboy - that's fine. Just go over to AMDzone or Geforce forums and post there. Anandtech has always been a publication doing deep dives and seeking the truth. Tribalism is fundamentally incompatible with that goal.

 

[whm1974]

I respect people that value different metrics. I do not respect, and I refuse to respect, people who make mountains out of molehills to cover for the fact they actually want to buy their favorite company's product due to an emotional sense of loyalty.

Considering that the computer industry is littered with the corpses of dead companies, loyalty should be earned by providing good products with good service at reasonable prices.

 

[poofyhairguy]

When someone says they're buying a card because it saves them 40 watts, I very much doubt that is really the concern.

I personally wouldn't jump to that conclusion without knowing their situation. Maybe it's a Mini ITX build. Maybe its a OEM PSU. I get your point though, 40w does nothing in a big ATX case.

In the early days of Apple vs Android you saw tons of this garbage.

That was kinda different, the OSes/ecosystems had huge distinction points back then. GPUs play the exact same games.

I respect people that value different metrics. I do not respect, and I refuse to respect, people who make mountains out of molehills to cover for the fact they actually want to buy their favorite company's product due to an emotional sense of loyalty.

I personally don't mind it as much because frankly it's obvious when it's happening. I am more annoyed when people act like whatever BS justification talking point they are stuck on is the only thing that should matter to EVERYONE, or even worse when there is a legitimate talking point (like nvidia's efficiency or amd's graceful aging) and people want to pretend like it's yet another justification talking point.

Sometimes differences matter and those important differences should be at the center of the discussion.

The fundamental problem isn't being a fanboy, but holding yourself out as if you are not.

As I said I honestly don't mind that. We know certain people on here are "fanboys" of one team or the other and quite frankly I look forward to their posts to see what the best argument for their side that can be put forward.

Honestly what bugs me much much worse is those whose loyalty is cheap. Like someone who was hitting every AMD talking point in say 2014 but now that AMD lacks a top-end card they bought a 1070/1080 and turned into a Nvidia "fanboy" overnight.

We are too drawn towards the appeal of the tribal mentality, and we are too quick to want to internalize what is really a trivial decision in our lives. Back in the day it seems like some people were actually impartial, and they jumped back and forth to whatever card had the best offering at that time.

Nowadays it seems like being a fanboy is a requirement ("you must be this tall to ride") and whose fanboy you are switches back and forth depending on what card is in your rig. That is way more frustrating than outright fanboyism, because suddenly those people seem to forget the actual good points made under their justification talking points when a different card was in the box.

That isn't a GPU market specific problem though. We are a more polarized society period.

 

[sxr7171]

Tribe is the best word I've seen to describe the behavior. Humans want to belong to something, anything.

It's pretty telling how sad today's society is that people want to belong to a brand, a soulless corporation. The Apple tribe, the Windows tribe, the Walmart tribe and so on. It's pretty telling how little else people have to invest in emotionally.

I do appreciate what the people at these companies do and the leading philosophies that lead to the creation and production of the wonderful products that make our lives more enjoyable. However that's about it.

I don't have the slightest issue with people switching brands because that's the rational thing to do. This generation maybe Nissan makes the best car for you, next time around maybe its Toyota. Who knows and who cares. These companies employ every strategy they can to keep you loyal, but it's up to the consumer to look around for a more suitable product.

Loyalty to an ideal or even a person who embodies those ideals is loyalty. "Loyalty" to an entity that exists to sell you stuff is not loyalty, the better word is stupidity.

At least in video cards I can see there is some slight sense of philosophy in that they are technical products and also I can see some people support the underdog from a sense of fairness. But it gets incomprehensible when you come across fanboys for handbags or clothing lines. I suppose there is some supposed lifestyle wearing a brand is supposed to convey, but I don't get it. Nobody cares what you want to convey about your lifestyle, your lifestyle is your business.

Marketers are simply psychologists whose job is to sell you stuff, and sadly society today has nothing better to offer most people than the satisfaction of buying branded stuff.

 

[frozentundra123456]

I see where you're coming from. People can value different metrics -- this is absolutely true. Some people want the fastest and have the budget to get it. Totally fine - not what I do but I can fully respect that.

But there are limits.

When someone says they're buying a card because it saves them 40 watts, I very much doubt that is really the concern. The fact of the matter is that for these metrics that were never traditionally important that suddenly become important because one side is winning, the reason is a smoke screen to deflect from the real purchasing rationale. Which is emotional and irrational company tribalism.

Posters have gotten smart to the fact that buying based on tribalism is indefensible, so they make mountains out of molehills to maintain some facade of reasonableness and impartiality. I refuse to be taken in by these lies. Wattage is just one of the many smoke screens deployed by both tribes. At some point async compute is a smoke screen. VRAM has been a smoke screen repeatedly for both sides depending on who was ahead. The sad part is there is a small minority of people who actually did care about these things before a particular tribe was good at it. And now those people seem like emotional tribalists at first blush because the partisans are co-opting their rationales. In the early days of Apple vs Android you saw tons of this garbage.

I respect people that value different metrics. I do not respect, and I refuse to respect, people who make mountains out of molehills to cover for the fact they actually want to buy their favorite company's product due to an emotional sense of loyalty.

Efficiency is very important to me, even if one cannot make up the difference in cost due to energy savings. I just appreciate an efficient device, be it a car, a cpu, or gpu. I dont feel that it is fair to insinuate that means I am some raving fanboy of a particular company. You are basically contradicting yourself. First you say you respect people that have different values, but in the next sentence you take it upon yourself to determing which of those values are legitimate and which are "making mountains out of molehills".

 

[Genx87]

Amen! That is what I think the primary problem is- we can't (refuse) to see any perspective but our own.

Personally I only care about sub-$400 cards (used to be $200) and I want what gives me the best perf/$. Someone else might want the top performance at any price and I respect that. Someone else wants the card that can mine the most profitably and I respect that. Someone else might want a cheaper card that is only good in WOW and I respect that. Someone might want the card that heats up their house less and I respect that.

It feels like somewhere along the way we lost the ability to see other perspectives to the point where mutual respect is lost. As it's pointed out AMD and Nvidia don't overlap much anymore so you would think we could agree more than ever.



I was there. That was my peak point in life for PC gaming. I owned a Voodoo 2, TNT 2 and Geforce 2.

I remember the 3DFX people were pretty defensive, and the Geforce with its hardware T&L created a debate about "3D accelerators vs 3D decelerators."

I don't remember the vitriol though. Maybe that is due to rose colored glasses.

I remember that T&L saga. So funny. I remember the huge fights over 3DFX vs Nvidia. The Voodoo 5000 was supposed to crush Nvidia. And we had huge arguments over vendor proprietary(glide) vs DX\OpenGL. Kind of funny how that has come full circle with Mantle

I still have my Voodoo 2 in my computer equipment closet. Bring it out every once in awhile for old times sake

 

[Mr.IncrediblyBored]

I remember the good ole days of 3Dfx Voodoo, nVidia Riva 128, S3 Virge, ATI Rage 3D, Matrox Mystique, Intel i740, NEC Power VR...

Back then you didn't have the rabid fanboyism towards GPUs like you do now. Granted, 3Dfx was so far ahead of anyone at the time there was nothing that could compete until the nVidia Riva TNT2 came on the scene. Back then, all the heat was pretty much "Console versus PC Gaming" or "PC versus Mac" and the like.

That's not at all what I remember about the early 2000's. 3dfx vs nvidia was way more hostile then anything I see now. The forums are more heavily moderated now, in my opinion.

 

[IEC]

That's not at all what I remember about the early 2000's. 3dfx vs nvidia was way more hostile then anything I see now. The forums are more heavily moderated now, in my opinion.

Case in point: the days of Prescott PresHOT "Pressed SH**" and CRAMITPAL

 

[CHADBOGA]

When you have people who only ever buy one brand, irrespective of performance characteristics, you are dealing with a real cancer.

 

[bystander36]

Honestly what bugs me much much worse is those whose loyalty is cheap. Like someone who was hitting every AMD talking point in say 2014 but now that AMD lacks a top-end card they bought a 1070/1080 and turned into a Nvidia "fanboy" overnight.

If someone is willing to change brands from purchase to purchase, these people really are not fanboys. They are capable of making a decision without letting the brand make it for them.

It also makes a lot of sense that they'd all of a sudden sound like a fanboy of that brand after that purchase, because the things they like about the new card and brand, was the reason they purchased it. If they didn't think it was the best choice at the time, they would not have chosen it.

 

[Final8ty]

i see where you're coming from. People can value different metrics -- this is absolutely true. Some people want the fastest and have the budget to get it. Totally fine - not what i do but i can fully respect that.

But there are limits.

When someone says they're buying a card because it saves them 40 watts, i very much doubt that is really the concern. The fact of the matter is that for these metrics that were never traditionally important that suddenly become important because one side is winning, the reason is a smoke screen to deflect from the real purchasing rationale. Which is emotional and irrational company tribalism.

Posters have gotten smart to the fact that buying based on tribalism is indefensible, so they make mountains out of molehills to maintain some facade of reasonableness and impartiality. I refuse to be taken in by these lies. Wattage is just one of the many smoke screens deployed by both tribes. At some point async compute is a smoke screen. Vram has been a smoke screen repeatedly for both sides depending on who was ahead. The sad part is there is a small minority of people who actually did care about these things before a particular tribe was good at it. And now those people seem like emotional tribalists at first blush because the partisans are co-opting their rationales. In the early days of apple vs android you saw tons of this garbage.

I respect people that value different metrics. I do not respect, and i refuse to respect, people who make mountains out of molehills to cover for the fact they actually want to buy their favorite company's product due to an emotional sense of loyalty.

spot on.

 

[stormkroe]

I remember that T&L saga. So funny. I remember the huge fights over 3DFX vs Nvidia. The Voodoo 5000 was supposed to crush Nvidia. And we had huge arguments over vendor proprietary(glide) vs DX\OpenGL. Kind of funny how that has come full circle with Mantle

I still have my Voodoo 2 in my computer equipment closet. Bring it out every once in awhile for old times sake

Remember the 3dfx guys talking up their T-buffer tech, snickering at an interviewer asking them how they think it would compare to TnL? I was DIE HARD 3dfx, (voodoo rush, diamond monster 2 12mb, v3, 2 v5s) and that attitude actually made me happy to see them get bought out by their competitors.
I feel that the general downward trend is due to the easy access of 'computer stuff' these days. Used to be that you had to slaughter a 25pin printer cable to rig up null modem, finally getting multiplayer doom to work at 3AM. Now any spoiled 12 year old CoD retard lives online and invades 'our space'.
Apologies for the little rant I slipped into, kinda blacked out there for a second

 

[Headfoot]

Efficiency is very important to me, even if one cannot make up the difference in cost due to energy savings. I just appreciate an efficient device, be it a car, a cpu, or gpu. I dont feel that it is fair to insinuate that means I am some raving fanboy of a particular company. You are basically contradicting yourself. First you say you respect people that have different values, but in the next sentence you take it upon yourself to determing which of those values are legitimate and which are "making mountains out of molehills".

Looks like you missed the part where I said "People who always believed a thing are getting their message co-opted" I'm not contradicting myself AT ALL. Read the entire post before you try and tell me I'm contradicting myself...

The sad part is there is a small minority of people who actually did care about these things before a particular tribe was good at it. And now those people seem like emotional tribalists at first blush because the partisans are co-opting their rationales.

If you always cared about efficiency, then go for it.

If you only started caring when one side or the other started winning, then yes, I have no respect for that opinion.

 

[Dribble]

It's been like this as long as I have been reading anandtech and most people want the drama. Look at the vendor specific sub forums - no one posts on them and no one reads them. Most of the threads in the main forum are about a graphics card or cards from one vendor but they get posted on the main gpu forum, not the one for that vendor where they probably belong.

They are on the main forum specifically for the drama, and tbh that's mostly why the thread was created - for the chance to have another meaningless argument about exactly the same things as most of the other threads on the forum.

 

[Face2Face]

When someone says they're buying a card because it saves them 40 watts, I very much doubt that is really the concern.

For me personally, I could care less about 40watts. I probably added an additional 100w going from my 3570K OC to my 5820K OC. My only issue is running CFX or SLI with power hungry cards. The real issue is, too much heat output. My system is on my 3rd floor, which is already hot, and adding two 250w cards makes gaming a sweat-a-thon. I know it sounds silly, but it was miserably hot in my office while gaming with two OC'd 7950's in CFX (my cards sucked more power than typical 7950's) I would only go multi-GPU again if it was with two 100w-125w cards. My 2 cents...

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Caveat emptor. You can use sevices like fakespot to help weed out the fake reviews on a site like Amazon. And you can weigh the legitimacy of vine reviews and the like, based on the reviewer's history. Afterall, they recieve free products in exchange for their "honest" opinions. The only fakespot service for the forums is experience and skepticism. And just as with e.g. vine reviewers, you can review their history to discern if they are able to remain objective, or succumb to the "bribes". Viral marketers in forums are similar to groups that infiltrate peaceful protests and try, with varying levels of success, to turn them violent. With similar end results, the authorities end up being forced to clean up the mess. With everyone suffering for it.

Brand fans are a different animal, and should not be taken seriously. Only other fanatics ( "marked by excessive enthusiasm and often intense uncritical devotion", what fan is short for, remember? ) get in rivalries that amount to shouting across the court at the other sides' bleachers.

Tech site reviews have become the equivalent of the political memes on facebook, that one "friend" spammed until you blocked them from your feed. They are so varied and plentiful, they can be used to support any position.

Allow me to give you a glimpse of what it is like for those of us that do not reside in the reality distortion field. And, have no horse in the race, either emotionally or financially. Sites like TPU that are spammed here, are of only moderate value. Their testing is supposed to reflect scientific experimental controls. But they end up with far too few variables to be useful for many gamers/consumers. While it is a negative, it is understandable. The amount of time and kit necessary to test with hardware and settings pertinent to a particular demographic would be as impractical for a site, as it is unprofitable. That is what we are for, more on that below.

The end result however, is that the bar graphs should not be troted out as some kind of definitive evidence, the way they always are. Why? Take the 470 review they just did. The controls to eliminate variables results in eliminating most the potential buyers hardware in the process. A $200 card is not going to end up in very many high end platforms like the test system. The CPUs, resolution, and necessary graphics settings to make a game an enjoyable playing experience are inevitably lost more oft than not. And a bunch of canned tests, are not gameplay and playability. While there are various issues with recording and playback of gameplay videos, they are very useful when accompanying a reviewer's game testing.

Why did I derail to testing methodology, when this is about hostility between members? Because the bar graphs are more useful as propaganda than useful advice for many prospective purchasers. A major contributor to why this forum is compared to P&N.

The member above that suggested we spend more time with user to user results and experiences, nailed it. Instead of a thread asking if you are buying a particular card/series or extolling the virtues of one over another based on the "memes"? We should be concentrating on asking owners of said graphics cards to share what hardware they paired it with, and what the optimal settings for any particular game are. The OP could keep track of data with help from other members, and produce lists with playable settings for various CPUs, clock speeds, etc. that a review site simply cannot provide. A potential buyer could peruse the lists, find a setup similar, and know what to expect from the card, in a much more real sense than a bar graph provides. Because that is why I joined tech forums, to provided user to user help and experiences. Not to shake pom poms, audition for "regional head of marketing", or vent my negative emotions.

In conclusion: And to use an analogy based on what was opined by another member in this thread - We need to blow away the smoke, build the fires ourselves, and stop relying on what amounts to, the smudge fires, review sites make, when we do it. Because what we all can most use, is what amount of effort is involved getting it started, and how much warmth and light is provided with minimal smoke. All the misinformation, disinformation, obfuscation, and pom pom shaking drama, could, IF WE CHOOSE, become background noise. Even the most prolific trolls would die of neglect, if we ignored them, instead of feeding them. It won't happen, but I can dream.

 

[eddman]

When someone says they're buying a card because it saves them 40 watts, I very much doubt that is really the concern.

Let's not throw stones, shall we. Why is it bad to want lower power consumption?

Yes, it might not add much to the power bill in developed countries, but what about those that live in developing countries where the average pay is $300 a month or less, like me.

Every single cent that I save is a plus for me. On top of that, it gets really hot in here, about 35 C in summer, and I have no AC in my house and my room is cramped with no windows. Cooling a lower power consuming card is easier for me and on top of that, less heat gets thrown out into my room.

Besides, can't someone simply like the idea of having a more efficient card?

I do understand that there are some people who simply mention "power efficiency" just so that they can defend their brand and maybe win the argument, but that's not true for every single person.

This is how these mentioned "hostilities" start in forums.