HOT..."half-price" Cadillac STS

[HKS]

For maintenance (especially if you turn your cars over every 3 years) I agree with you... it is all covered under warranty. I'm talking more about the cost of repair to a vehicle (i.e. - if you've been in an accident) I'd be curious to see the "cost of ownership" surveys that you're referring to... I've seen some of these surveys myself, and BMW consistently comes up lower in terms of customer satisfaction (customers are surprised that their vehicle breaks down) Not to mention, more importantly, as a auto maker employee myself, I consistently hear that the packaging that BMW uses, though elegant, makes their cars very difficult to service (too much stuff in too small of a space) Add to that the cost of importing parts from Germany for a repair, and you're looking at a fairly hefty bill.





<< HKS,

The high cost of BMW repair is actually something of a myth. In all of those "cost of ownership" surveys which look at how much it costs to operate a vehicle over a 75,000 mile run the BMW 3 and 5 series don't cost more to own than upscale domestic marquees (Lincoln, Cadillac, etc).

BMW also includes full included maintenance for the first 3 years or 36,000 miles... after that it's up to you if you want to continue to use the dealer for things like oil changes.

I haven't driven the newest model M3, but I have driven the predecesser and it's an absolutely amazing car. Since most of us aren't buying cars like this to race on the track, the fact that a Vette might lap the track 2/10 of a second faster is really not a concern to me.

A car that can give you blistering performance, AND a completely higher level of refinement is probably worth the nod. I guess many car reviewers agree with that asessment. >>

 

[HKS]

<< Wow, you've never driven a BMW have you?

I am not comparing a BMW to a honda civic or integra ... I am comparing it to an equivalent, or rather superior machine in both performance and handling, my stage 5 300ZX twin turbo with 350 rwhp and 388 ft/lb, 4 wheels' steering and dual suspension will make any BMW including the new M3 eat my dust.
(before anyone asks 350 rwhp=437.5hp at the crank shaft... all that with stock turbos .. you can easily get to 500-600hp with bigger turbos without even touching the engine internals) >>



Wow... 350 at the wheels? That is one bad mother... what's your E/T?

 

[targg]

<< Targg -

Where did you get all this from? That is the longest running bunch of B.S. I've ever seen. THe most likely reason they ar eable to get rid of these cars, and why the Caddy dealers don't want them is quite simple, Caddies don't sell...they aren't a top selling car and the last thing a dealer wants is to try and figure out how to sell a used/leased caddy. The refurbisher/wholesaler you want to bash is obviously well known for selling used Caddy's therefore people in the market for a used Caddy will come to them looking for a good deal. The dealer get's rid of unwanted inventory and the wholesaler continues to stay in the used car business.

On top of that a car that has less than 10k on the odo. was most likely a early lease return or a repo. Especially with the current stock market problems and the economy I can definately see a bunch of senior citizens having to turn in there brand new caddy's for an older model just to be able to afford the payments. Also, the clientel who buys a caddy doesn't drive very much or often, a friedn of my fathers just recently got rid of here '86 Olds that had only 22k original miles. She used the car 3 times a week to drive less than 8 miles roundtrip.

So before you start spouting off a bunch of B.S. you'd better have some solid proof to back it up. >>



Wow, shows what can happen when you dont look into a thread for a few days. Also shows what a 15 year old with a computer can come up with after reading "road and track" a couple of times...

Well lets see, for 10 years I ran the used car end of a dealership, hows that for solid proof to back it up? You can now wipe the whiz off of my shoes. Or just lie and say you know something about the business so you dont look so stupid for crapping on me for giving people good information.

Your opinions are not very well informed. Every car dealer in the country is screaming for good used car stock, not only to service the used car market but because good clean low mileage cars are a great draw for customers that can easily be sold up to a new car. Caddy sales aint great, but the volume of good used cars is exacerbated by exactly what you said: people dont trade them, they keep them for a million years.

The repo argument holds no water. The repo rate on cars of this valuation is low, low, low. Sure, the stock market dropped a little. So Mr. Caddy owner's portfolio dropped from a couple of million to a million and a half, so he's going to let the 50k car he just bought get repo'd and take a credit rating hit for seven years over that? Get real. Similarly, when the economy is down, people are looking for used, not new, which increases the dealer demand for used cars.

Bottom line: a good low mileage used car is not ever going to end up on a wholesaler lot. Your very best bet is a used car from a dealer that doesnt carry them. First thing a dealer does is look at a trade-in, if its cherry, they keep it. If its nice but not that nice, they shop it to a neighboring dealer that sells that brand. If they wont take it, it goes to the wholesaler. Ninety percent of the cars on a wholesaler lot are problem children. The other ten percent are decent cars that slipped through the system, but the wholesaler knows his business, those cars carry a fat price on his lot. Thats where he makes his money.

 

[MowSow]

"Wow... 350 at the wheels? That is one bad mother... what's your E/T?"

My best time...
enjoy...


R/T 0.525
60' 1.954
330 5.289
1/8 8.009
MPH 89.09
1000 10.397
1/4 12.33
MPH 117.47

that's on stock turbos .. with boost controller and 111 Octane Racing fuel

 

[FrustratedUser]

<< bentley is owned by VW and RR will be passed onto BMW this year.
But it was always a fact that an RR and i believe Bentley's both used BMW engines.
so i guess money is saved if you just buy a BMW instead of a RR or Bentley q]



So wrong, so wrong.

 

[gunf1ghter]

<< I am not comparing a BMW to a honda civic or integra ... I am comparing it to an equivalent, or rather superior machine in both performance and handling, my stage 5 300ZX twin turbo with 350 rwhp and 388 ft/lb, 4 wheels' steering and dual suspension will make any BMW including the new M3 eat my dust.
(before anyone asks 350 rwhp=437.5hp at the crank shaft... all that with stock turbos .. you can easily get to 500-600hp with bigger turbos without even touching the engine internals) >>



That sounds like a nice setup... however, I don't think it's fair to compare a stock anything to a stage five heavily modded car. Anything can be modded... what is important to the majority of buyers is how the car is stock. Also, BMW trades a little bit of performance to give a higher level of refinement... even with thousands of miles on the clock they are virtually free of squeaks and rattles.

 

[chinochulo]

Any auto manufacturer these days wanting to remain profitable will streamline platform and build multiple "configurations" off a common platform. All of the major manufacturers around the world are doing it. Examples:

Toyota/Lexus/(some)GM
Camry/ES300/Solara/Avalon (old camry--92-01) platform/RX300/Sienna/Highlander all based on the same (or similar) platform
'02 Corolla/Matrix/(i]Pontiac[/i]) Vibe all based on same platform
last gen Corolla/Chevy/Geo Prism all based on the same platform

Honda/Acura/(Isuzu)
Accord/CL/TL/Odyssey/MDX/new Honda SUV (forgot name) all based on same platform
Civic/RSX/CR-V you get the idea...
Passport/Rodeo

Nissan/Infiniti
Maxima/I35
350Z/G35 (I think Renault will eventually get a car from this platform too???)
Pathfinder/QX4

VW/Audi/Porsche
Golf/Jetta/Cabrio/Beetle/TT
A4/A6/Passat/allroad
Cayenne/new VW SUV

Ford, etc.
Tribute/Escape
Mondeo (euro)/X-type
F-150/Expedition/Navigator/Blackwood
LS/S-type/T-bird
Taurus/Sable
DB7/XK8

GM
Cavalier/Sunfire
Catera/Opel Omega
EXT/Avalanche/Escalade/Denali/Suburban (same basic platform)

I'm tired. BUT, this could go on and on forever (and that's not even really getting into the truck platforms). Everyone owns a piece of someone else and they share from the old parts bin and platforms. It's all about the cost cutting.

Even the "we might build it" Pontiac Solstice--if you read the article--has got SUBARU steering!?!?! How the heck did a rack fly all the way from Japan and hop into a prototype in Detroit!?! ;-)

Cheers.

 

[gunf1ghter]

well, supposedly the one thing that BMW really prides themselves on is that they design and/or manufacture every part in their cars. I don't know if this is true, but I don't think that they have any real parts (other than things like screws and washers) that come from other manufacturers.

they also have the highest profit margin of ANY marquee... so I guess that BMW can do all of the above and still make a very high profit on the cars.

 

[rk0]

<< Any auto manufacturer these days wanting to remain profitable will streamline platform and build multiple "configurations" off a common platform. All of the major manufacturers around the world are doing it. Examples:

Toyota/Lexus/(some)GM
Camry/ES300/Solara/Avalon (old camry--92-01) platform/RX300/Sienna/Highlander all based on the same (or similar) platform
'02 Corolla/Matrix/(i]Pontiac) Vibe all based on same platform
last gen Corolla/Chevy/Geo Prism all based on the same platform

Honda/Acura/(Isuzu)
Accord/CL/TL/Odyssey/MDX/new Honda SUV (forgot name) all based on same platform
Civic/RSX/CR-V you get the idea...
Passport/Rodeo

Nissan/Infiniti
Maxima/I35
350Z/G35 (I think Renault will eventually get a car from this platform too???)
Pathfinder/QX4

VW/Audi/Porsche
Golf/Jetta/Cabrio/Beetle/TT
A4/A6/Passat/allroad
Cayenne/new VW SUV

Ford, etc.
Tribute/Escape
Mondeo (euro)/X-type
F-150/Expedition/Navigator/Blackwood
LS/S-type/T-bird
Taurus/Sable
DB7/XK8

GM
Cavalier/Sunfire
Catera/Opel Omega
EXT/Avalanche/Escalade/Denali/Suburban (same basic platform)

I'm tired. BUT, this could go on and on forever (and that's not even really getting into the truck platforms). Everyone owns a piece of someone else and they share from the old parts bin and platforms. It's all about the cost cutting.

Even the "we might build it" Pontiac Solstice--if you read the article--has got SUBARU steering!?!?! How the heck did a rack fly all the way from Japan and hop into a prototype in Detroit!?! ;-)

Cheers.[/i] >>



GM:
Pontiac Grand Prix / Chevy Monte Carlo - Malibu / Buick Century - Regal

most are made from the ottawa plant, hence the Canada-required Daytime running lamps.

 

[HKS]

<<

<< Any auto manufacturer these days wanting to remain profitable will streamline platform and build multiple "configurations" off a common platform. All of the major manufacturers around the world are doing it. Examples:

Toyota/Lexus/(some)GM
Camry/ES300/Solara/Avalon (old camry--92-01) platform/RX300/Sienna/Highlander all based on the same (or similar) platform
'02 Corolla/Matrix/(i]Pontiac) Vibe all based on same platform
last gen Corolla/Chevy/Geo Prism all based on the same platform

Honda/Acura/(Isuzu)
Accord/CL/TL/Odyssey/MDX/new Honda SUV (forgot name) all based on same platform
Civic/RSX/CR-V you get the idea...
Passport/Rodeo

Nissan/Infiniti
Maxima/I35
350Z/G35 (I think Renault will eventually get a car from this platform too???)
Pathfinder/QX4

VW/Audi/Porsche
Golf/Jetta/Cabrio/Beetle/TT
A4/A6/Passat/allroad
Cayenne/new VW SUV

Ford, etc.
Tribute/Escape
Mondeo (euro)/X-type
F-150/Expedition/Navigator/Blackwood
LS/S-type/T-bird
Taurus/Sable
DB7/XK8

GM
Cavalier/Sunfire
Catera/Opel Omega
EXT/Avalanche/Escalade/Denali/Suburban (same basic platform)

I'm tired. BUT, this could go on and on forever (and that's not even really getting into the truck platforms). Everyone owns a piece of someone else and they share from the old parts bin and platforms. It's all about the cost cutting.

Even the "we might build it" Pontiac Solstice--if you read the article--has got SUBARU steering!?!?! How the heck did a rack fly all the way from Japan and hop into a prototype in Detroit!?! ;-)

Cheers. >>



GM:
Pontiac Grand Prix / Chevy Monte Carlo - Malibu / Buick Century - Regal

most are made from the ottawa plant, hence the Canada-required Daytime running lamps.[/i] >>




Hmm... GM owns (or is a major investor) in Subaru, much the same that For dis a major investor in Mazda.

 

[GnatGoSplat]

<< GM:
Pontiac Grand Prix / Chevy Monte Carlo - Malibu / Buick Century - Regal

most are made from the ottawa plant, hence the Canada-required Daytime running lamps. >>



Malibu is NOT built on the same W-car platform as the others. Impala and Intrigue are built on the same platform as GP, Regal, Monte.
Malibu and Olds Cutlass (not Supreme) are built on the N-body platform.

 

[rk0]

<<

<< GM:
Pontiac Grand Prix / Chevy Monte Carlo - Malibu / Buick Century - Regal

most are made from the ottawa plant, hence the Canada-required Daytime running lamps. >>



Malibu is NOT built on the same W-car platform as the others. Impala and Intrigue are built on the same platform as GP, Regal, Monte.
Malibu and Olds Cutlass (not Supreme) are built on the N-body platform. >>



Are you sure about the intrigue on the same platform - it's a much smaller car, seems it should be paired with the cavalier.

 

[GnatGoSplat]

Yep, positive about the Intrigue. It's a larger car.
You might be thinking of the Alero which looks similar to the Intrigue, but is available in 2-dr (as well as 4-dr) and is built on the same platform as the Grand Am.

 

[gtd2000]

There are numerous other shared platforms elswhere in the world too.

VW platforms are also used in Seat (Spanish) and Skoda (Czech) cars. (I think they are owned by VW anyway?)

Ford and Nissan have often worked together in Europe with SUV's and MPV's.

There is an MPV available in Europe that is sold as a VW (Sharan), Ford and a Seat.

Hyundai originally built the Ford Cortina (UK model) under license then moved to using Mitsubishi based vehicles.

The Japs started off mainly by building British cars under license too - now we build their cars for them.....how ironic

 

[straubs]

<< I am not comparing a BMW to a honda civic or integra ... I am comparing it to an equivalent, or rather superior machine in both performance and handling, my stage 5 300ZX twin turbo with 350 rwhp and 388 ft/lb, 4 wheels' steering and dual suspension will make any BMW including the new M3 eat my dust.
(before anyone asks 350 rwhp=437.5hp at the crank shaft... all that with stock turbos .. you can easily get to 500-600hp with bigger turbos without even touching the engine internals) >>




Gee, what a fair comparison!

300ZX is nice, but why are you comparing a stock M3 and a modified 300ZX? I mean, duh? Take a stock M3 *AND* and stock 300ZX and there's a battle. And the funny thing is, the guy in the M3 could be carrying his whole family, comfortably mind you, in his car!

 

[gunf1ghter]

BINGO!!!

Anything can be made to go fast or handle well if you mod it out enough... but trying to bring up the level of refinement in a vehicle that didn't start with it? That would be a hard thing to pull off.

 

[MowSow]

Anything can be made to go fast or handle well if you mod it out enough... but trying to bring up the level of refinement in a vehicle that didn't start with it? That would be a hard thing to pull off.


I agree with that a 100%! When they built the legendary Z, it was 10 years ahead of it?s times, with state of the art, hand matched, pistons to each cylinder, electronic variable timing and twin turbos managed by an ECU with meticulously programmed fuel maps and boost controllers, all that matched with a suspension designed to make the Z handle as if it was on rails, not to mention it?s timeless design that still, till this days, turn heads. The results is a car that can push 300 horse power from factory, and with very minor bolt on component (K&N intake, high flow exhaust, and ECU chip upgrade, that can install in under an hour and cost $1500, will bring the Z to a whopping 412 horse power at 13 PSI of boost. Add a boost controller and crank the boost up to 17 PSI to pass the 450 horse power mark, a set to 555CC fuel injectors will bring you up to 500 horse power. The only car out there that be so easily upgraded without touching the engine internals is the Supra. So Finally after 12 years, the new M3 was able to break the 300 horse power barrier with a 333 HP capable engine from factory !! So let?s see now, who is more advanced, when the new Z hits the market in a few month with a ?small? 3.5 liter engine that can generate 280 horse power, the highest horse power that be obtained from that size engine on any car on the market today ? all that with a price tag under $30, I want to wait and see when the turbo version is released ? where would everyone else be ? in the Zz dust of course.

 

[PsychoCrazy]

<< all that with a price tag under $30 >>




Cool! $30 is right in my price range.

 

[gunf1ghter]

ya, I guess your right... ppl must be crazy to buy those M3's and S4's!

 

[Abem3]

rofl, are you serious? 10 years ahead of it's time? What about the supra which was a better overall performer? What about the 3000GT? These cars were all nice but were too gadget (crap) laden and expensive for the market. The 300Z is a nice car but it is far from the be all end all of cars.

BTW, the M3 makes 333hp from 3.3 liters (less than 3.5) and just for refernce the S2000 makes only 40hp less from 1.5l less displacement.

Notice the new Z does not have turbos, 4 wheel steering, etc. Nissan learned their lessons.

 

[straubs]

<< So Finally after 12 years, the new M3 was able to break the 300 horse power barrier with a 333 HP capable engine from factory !! >>



The latest M3 has 333hp from a 3.2L. You must remember this is a *naturally aspirated* car. No turbo lag and it doesn't suffer from all power & no torque like most turbos. You do realize that NA is much more desireable, right? Adding a turbo just happens to be the cheapest way to gain power and that's it.




<< So let?s see now, who is more advanced, when the new Z hits the market in a few month with a ?small? 3.5 liter engine that can generate 280 horse power, the highest horse power that be obtained from that size engine on any car on the market today ? all that with a price tag under $30 >>




ROTFL!

3.5 L with 280 hp? That's a big deal to you?

GM has had the 3.8L 240hp supercharged engine for like 5 years now.
Suburu WRX 2.0L 227hp. Soon to be WRX STi with around 275hp. From a TWO LITER. THAT is advanced!
The GM F-body cars have been putting out 300+ hp for under around $25k for about 4 years now.




<< , I want to wait and see when the turbo version is released >>



Why the obsession with turbos? Turbo lag = bad. Lack of torque = bad. MOST supercars are NA. Porche being the biggest name that's turbo driven mainly because of their awkward engine space. Corvette, most Ferraris, Viper, Lamborghini, etc... All NA. Japanese companies slap on turbos because they are taxed based on engine size! Otherwise they'd have a lot less turbos in use, because it is NOT the greatest thing in the world as people like you seem to think for some reason.

 

[ZimZum]

<< [

Why the obsession with turbos? Turbo lag = bad. Lack of torque = bad. MOST supercars are NA. Porche being the biggest name that's turbo driven mainly because of their awkward engine space. Corvette, most Ferraris, Viper, Lamborghini, etc... All NA. Japanese companies slap on turbos because they are taxed based on engine size! Otherwise they'd have a lot less turbos in use, because it is NOT the greatest thing in the world as people like you seem to think for some reason. >>


Yes turbos are overrated but Superchargers on the otherhand

 

[Xchange]

If you think cross platforming cars or just because a luxo brand is owned by a not to glamourous parent company means that their luxo cars or good...then...

Case Study: DaeWoo
1> Their cars where designed by Itel Designs....Same people behind the designs of exotic super cars such as Lamborgini Diablos
2> Their Suspension for their car lineup was done by Porsche.
3> Their cars where tweaks and tested on famous european proving grounds by famous european engineers that do testing for Audi and BMW...

so.... Is a Daewoo the same as a Lambo, Porsche or BMW for 1/1000th the cost?
Are Daewoo's considered Hot Deals?

Hell No..unless u nuts...

 

[GnatGoSplat]

<< 3.5 L with 280 hp? That's a big deal to you? >>



It's not bad, IMO.



<< GM has had the 3.1L 240hp supercharged engine for like 5 years now. >>



No, that engine is 3.8L.



<< Suburu WRX 2.0L 227hp. Soon to be WRX STi with around 275hp. From a TWO LITER. THAT is advanced! >>



That's certainly quite efficient.



<< The GM F-body cars have been putting out 300+ hp for under around $25k for about 4 years now. >>



Yes, although they have a displacement of 5.7L, if you care about engine efficiency.
Although in the real world, engine efficiency means nothing unless you're a mechanical engineer.
The 345HP 5.7L LS1 V8 in an F-body is more FUEL efficient than the 290HP 4.4L DOHC V8 in a BMW 540i, which happens to be the lighter car. In fact, the LS1 is almost as fuel efficient as the 3.0L 6-cyl in the BMW 530i while producing 120 more HP. So obviously ENGINE efficiency means little on the street and to your pocketbook.



<< Why the obsession with turbos? Turbo lag = bad. Lack of torque = bad. MOST supercars are NA. Porche being the biggest name that's turbo driven mainly because of their awkward engine space. Corvette, most Ferraris, Viper, Lamborghini, etc... All NA. Japanese companies slap on turbos because they are taxed based on engine size! Otherwise they'd have a lot less turbos in use, because it is NOT the greatest thing in the world as people like you seem to think for some reason. >>



Not necessarily. A turbocharged car can have ZERO turbo lag if that's how it's designed. The McLaren-designed Turbo 3.1L in the '89-90 Pontiac Grand Prix had ZERO turbo lag. That's due to the car using a tiny T-25 turbocharger on a V6 engine. The tiny V6 is fully spooled up at just above idle RPM. Granted, this reduces the available top-end boost so the cars are only capable of a high 13-second 1/4-mile on the stock turbocharger. However, there are ways around this like progressive twin turbos, etc. In fact, I believe that's how many twin-turbo cars are designed - a smaller turbo that spools up quickly for lower RPM, and a larger turbo for more boost at higher RPM.
Turbos are probably not used often on the average family car because they are higher-maintennance (in terms of requiring a warm-up and idle-down) and costly repair items. Most consumers who want basic transportation wouldn't want to deal with that.

 

[gtd2000]

<< Suburu WRX 2.0L 227hp. Soon to be WRX STi with around 275hp. From a TWO LITER. THAT is advanced! >>


Yes these "low horsepower" US-spec Japanese models..............wait till you try the full power Jap versions

The 800 horsepower Skyline is impressive - not stock obviously