Hot Pursuit Into Pakistan?

[Socio]

Hot Pursuit Into Pakistan?

War On Terror: As Washington moves an aircraft carrier off Pakistan's coast, U.S. commandos are reportedly poised to launch raids against terror targets inside Pakistan. It's about time.

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It appears hawks within the Pentagon and CIA have won a long-running policy battle with risk-averse officials in the administration and diplomats at the State Department. The result is a more aggressive, go-it-alone policy in response to Pakistan's failure to disrupt terrorist training camps and cross-border attacks against our troops and the Afghan government.

Politics and diplomacy had not produced the desired results, and they've had ample opportunity to work. For nearly seven years now -- as we've coaxed, cajoled and even bribed our "ally" with billions in aid -- Osama bin Laden and his henchmen have remained hidden inside Pakistan's tribal areas. Patience with Islamabad has run out. It's time for unilateral military action.

It is a risky move but with the cat a mouse games of run across the border fire everything you got and run back and hide tactics the Taliban are using we will be in Afghanistan for a 100 years. Pakistan is both inept and unwilling to do anything about it, so this leaves but one choice and that is do it ourselves.

 

[GoingUp]

Why does the news media go out of their fuckin' way to report what secret stuff we're planning to do in the war on terror. I'd much rather learn that we went in to Pakistan unilaterally after the strike was done and our guys were out safe than by some wanker whos determined to give out all details ahead of time.

And the people that are leaking this shit should be put in jail for endangering soldiers lives like that.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Gobadgrs
Why does the news media go out of their fuckin' way to report what secret stuff we're planning to do in the war on terror. I'd much rather learn that we went in to Pakistan unilaterally after the strike was done and our guys were out safe than by some wanker whos determined to give out all details ahead of time.

And the people that are leaking this shit should be put in jail for endangering soldiers lives like that.

Oh please. You can't miss an attack group, especially an Aircraft Carrier based group.

Did you know India does not allow any U.S. military operations in any of it's territory?

 

[GoingUp]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Gobadgrs
Why does the news media go out of their fuckin' way to report what secret stuff we're planning to do in the war on terror. I'd much rather learn that we went in to Pakistan unilaterally after the strike was done and our guys were out safe than by some wanker whos determined to give out all details ahead of time.

And the people that are leaking this shit should be put in jail for endangering soldiers lives like that.

Oh please. You can't miss an attack group, especially an Aircraft Carrier based group.

Did you know India does not allow any U.S. military operations in any of it's territory?

Fair enough, but why does the report specifically have to say that theyre going to be going into Pakistan from the carrier. Why couldn't it just be that they're there supporting the troops in Afghanistan?

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Gobadgrs

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Gobadgrs
Why does the news media go out of their fuckin' way to report what secret stuff we're planning to do in the war on terror. I'd much rather learn that we went in to Pakistan unilaterally after the strike was done and our guys were out safe than by some wanker whos determined to give out all details ahead of time.

And the people that are leaking this shit should be put in jail for endangering soldiers lives like that.

Oh please. You can't miss an attack group, especially an Aircraft Carrier based group.

Did you know India does not allow any U.S. military operations in any of it's territory?

Fair enough, but why does the report specifically have to say that theyre going to be going into Pakistan from the carrier. Why couldn't it just be that they're there supporting the troops in Afghanistan?

Because it is obvious

 

[Lemon law]

I see it as pointless, why the heck do we need even one aircraft carrier when all of Afghanistan amounts to an unsinkable aircraft carrier. As it is Pakistan is allowing us to fly drones and to already somewhat violate their territorial sovereignty. But the use of air power can easily become counter productive in both Afghanistan and Pakistan because unintended collateral damage is inevitable.

And then it kills too few terrorists to matter while inflaming the entire nation against the US and Nato presence. And this is just ill disguised gun boat diplomacy. And the emotion of fear seldom ever results in the desired love we need to win hearts and minds. And meanwhile every rag tag terrorist group with any teeth will start working over time to figure out how to attack that bigger than a barn air craft carrier. And all they need is one exocet type missile and a little luck, regardless if they come from South America or China.

 

[Jhhnn]

Maybe the carrier group is there to attack the iranians from the backside, and this isn't about pakistan, alQ, or any of that, at all...

Or maybe it's just more domestic PR to tell us all just how safe the Bushies are keeping us...

 

[The Green Bean]

I can't see what my ball-less idiot leaders in Islamabad are doing!! Time to tell the USA they are on their own. That means no more overflights. That also means all American equipment in Pakistan will be confiscated. That also means that if Pakistan's territory is within limits so are their carrier groups and bases. I'm sure they'll be coming out with tougher measures on Monday. Damn we have so many enemies here!

 

[mxyzptlk]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
I can't see what my ball-less idiot leaders in Islamabad are doing!! Time to tell the USA they are on their own. That means no more overflights. That also means all American equipment in Pakistan will be confiscated. That also means that if Pakistan's territory is within limits so are their carrier groups and bases. I'm sure they'll be coming out with tougher measures on Monday. Damn we have so many enemies here!

I think the world would get a lot more interesting if Pakistan managed to take out the entire carrier group with a well placed nuclear weapon!

 

[cirrrocco]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Gobadgrs
Why does the news media go out of their fuckin' way to report what secret stuff we're planning to do in the war on terror. I'd much rather learn that we went in to Pakistan unilaterally after the strike was done and our guys were out safe than by some wanker whos determined to give out all details ahead of time.

And the people that are leaking this shit should be put in jail for endangering soldiers lives like that.

Oh please. You can't miss an attack group, especially an Aircraft Carrier based group.

Did you know India does not allow any U.S. military operations in any of it's territory?

Well india offered complete access to bases right after 911, and the US refused. so you can't pin the blame on india here. It is a different story altogether now after the US misadventure in iraq and the Indian public dont want to give any basing rights to the US.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: mxyzptlk

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
I can't see what my ball-less idiot leaders in Islamabad are doing!! Time to tell the USA they are on their own. That means no more overflights. That also means all American equipment in Pakistan will be confiscated. That also means that if Pakistan's territory is within limits so are their carrier groups and bases. I'm sure they'll be coming out with tougher measures on Monday. Damn we have so many enemies here!

I think the world would get a lot more interesting if Pakistan managed to take out the entire carrier group with a well placed nuclear weapon!

I don't think they would need to use nuclear weapons. A few conventional cruise missiles and ballistic missiles should do. It's to risky to try nukes. I don't trust the Americans. They would even resort to nuking our civilian population to take revenge. And I also think that it would be our right to take out your carrier group after so many illegal acts of war. Too bad the U.N is just a bunch of clowns headed by a joker who would still condemn us even after America kills half our population.

 

[Lemon law]

What what, the Green Bean, you don't trust sweet ole lovable GWB either. Sadly your Musharrif did and now you see where it gets you. GWB refuses to accept his policy bungling
as the reason he fails in Afghanistan, so why not blame Pakistan?

At least the lesson is not lost on India and the rest of the world, as the USA, in future will have a hell of a time getting any new foreign bases anywhere and a harder time
retaining those we have.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: mxyzptlk

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
I can't see what my ball-less idiot leaders in Islamabad are doing!! Time to tell the USA they are on their own. That means no more overflights. That also means all American equipment in Pakistan will be confiscated. That also means that if Pakistan's territory is within limits so are their carrier groups and bases. I'm sure they'll be coming out with tougher measures on Monday. Damn we have so many enemies here!

I think the world would get a lot more interesting if Pakistan managed to take out the entire carrier group with a well placed nuclear weapon!

I don't think they would need to use nuclear weapons. A few conventional cruise missiles and ballistic missiles should do. It's to risky to try nukes. I don't trust the Americans. They would even resort to nuking our civilian population to take revenge. And I also think that it would be our right to take out your carrier group after so many illegal acts of war. Too bad the U.N is just a bunch of clowns headed by a joker who would still condemn even after America kills half our population.

Tell you what. How about Pakistan does anything at all of value to the rest of the world, THEN you can talk shit all you like. Otherwise you just look like a nationalistic tool.

The Taliban supported people who attacked the US and killed many of our citizens. When we go after those behind that attack, you guys have the audacity to bitch and moan about the way we do it. Which would be fine, if you were trying to help us instead of sheltering our enemies while pretending to be our ally.

I think we have every right to do what needs to be done to hunt down the Taliban and their terrorist allies, even if that means entering Pakistan. You don't want us to do that? Then it seems like it would be a good idea for you guys to get your heads out of your asses and do it yourselves. Those would seem to be the choices, I personally would be fine with either one. I see no reason for the US and Pakistan to be at odds over this issue, but if that's the choice your leadership makes, I guess that's how it goes.

And please stop with the chest thumping, it's getting pretty silly. We all know that open, armed conflict between the US and Pakistan would only turn out one way. It won't be good for us, but I have no doubt it would be much worse for you. I am doubtful that the Pakistani military could take out a US carrier battle group, but even if they did, that's the kind of thing that starts a full scale conflict. Taking an unexpected cheap shot is one thing, but if you really want your country to be at war with the US, you're an idiot.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Tell you what. How about Pakistan does anything at all of value to the rest of the world, THEN you can talk shit all you like. Otherwise you just look like a nationalistic tool.

]

So what's this thing that the US has done to the rest of the world except threaten, extort, start illegal wars; murder and torture?[/quote]

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: Rainsford
And please stop with the chest thumping, it's getting pretty silly. We all know that open, armed conflict between the US and Pakistan would only turn out one way. It won't be good for us, but I have no doubt it would be much worse for you. I am doubtful that the Pakistani military could take out a US carrier battle group, but even if they did, that's the kind of thing that starts a full scale conflict. Taking an unexpected cheap shot is one thing, but if you really want your country to be at war with the US, you're an idiot.

After you do something silly that prompts us to attack you; we won't be the only country at war with you. You have plenty of enemies in this regions and that's one reason you should get the hell out! Nobody likes you. You won't change ideologies by killing people. I hate the American ideology of might is right and will continue to do so till the day I die! Damn today's world is a bunch of cowards who would have let the US rule even if it were ruled by someone like Hitler.

 

[Lemon law]

If nothing else its time to point out some things to Rainsford who asks---How about Pakistan does anything at all of value to the rest of the world, THEN you can talk shit all you like.

To start out, Pakistan has arrested more Al-Quida operatives than the rest of the WORLD COMBINED. And I don't think there is any doubt about it, Pakistan has done a far better job than the USA in keeping their kookie right wing nuts in the ineffective minority. Gee what a revaluation, Pakistan is going to have its own foreign policy goals, and sometimes they are not going to be the same as US goals. Pakistan has not sold itself into being indentured servants to the US contrary to some people's idiot expectations.

But my guess is, any US forced entry into Pakistan is going to be a horrible blunder that will backfires on the USA. And will end up empowering the very terrorists groups we don't want to see gain credibility, not just in the region, but world wide.

 

[mxyzptlk]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
So what's this thing that the US has done to the rest of the world except threaten, extort, start illegal wars; murder and torture?

[/quote]

*shrug* You explain why global culture is being more and more influenced by western memes.. Why the Coca Cola logo and Mickey Mouse are the most recognized symbols worldwide. Why the Chinese are driving Fords and eating Mcdonalds. I honestly don't see the appeal myself, I don't like either, but the shit is popular everywhere..

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: Rainsford
And please stop with the chest thumping, it's getting pretty silly. We all know that open, armed conflict between the US and Pakistan would only turn out one way. It won't be good for us, but I have no doubt it would be much worse for you. I am doubtful that the Pakistani military could take out a US carrier battle group, but even if they did, that's the kind of thing that starts a full scale conflict. Taking an unexpected cheap shot is one thing, but if you really want your country to be at war with the US, you're an idiot.

After you do something silly that prompts us to attack you; we won't be the only country at war with you. You have plenty of enemies in this regions and that's one reason you should get the hell out! Nobody likes you. You won't change ideologies by killing people. I hate the American ideology of might is right and will continue to do so till the day I die! Damn today's world is a bunch of cowards who would have let the US rule even if it were ruled by someone like Hitler.

I have no problem with different ideologies, and I personally would like the US to be as minimally involved in your region of the world as possible. But I don't consider terrorist attacks to be an ideological problem, and while I'd be fine with leaving everyone alone, I don't think we should ignore people who attack us. We didn't start the conflict in Afghanistan, and I find it ridiculous that people like you think the terrorists and their supporters are the wronged party. We only have a problem with your country to the extent that you refuse to help us fight the people who attacked us. Now, putting aside ideology for a second...does that really seem so unreasonable?

If you have read any of my other posts on this board, you'd realize I don't agree with the neo-con warmongering ideology or the "America is always right" philosophy. But I think that if someone attacks you, you have a right to defend yourself. And if someone else helps you're attackers, then they're just as valid of a target. Ultimately, if people in your region of the world want to stop having to deal with the United States, it's going to require you dealing with things yourselves. The world is smaller than ever, and as long as you can build a bomb in your country and bring it to mine, what you do in your country is very much my business.

I don't want to get into a dick measuring contest with you about our respective country's military capabilities, but I find it a little hard to believe you think it would be a good idea for your country to attack the US directly. Our "enemies" in the region love to talk a good game, but I think that's mostly because they know there is no consequence for doing so. To think that they would band together if one of them attacked us is not very realistic. And I can't help but noticing that you're very good at not being a "coward" when all you have to do is talk big on a message board. Real war is a whole different thing, though, isn't it?

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Tell you what. How about Pakistan does anything at all of value to the rest of the world, THEN you can talk shit all you like. Otherwise you just look like a nationalistic tool.

]

So what's this thing that the US has done to the rest of the world except threaten, extort, start illegal wars; murder and torture?

[/quote]

I could make a big list for you, but what's the point? You've obviously made up your mind already, and arguing with foaming at the mouth nationalists is not high on my list of favorite activities. I just find it interesting that you think Pakistan is in a great position to talk down to the United States, since I can't think of any reason you'd thing so other than the fact that you're Pakistani.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: Rainsford
And please stop with the chest thumping, it's getting pretty silly. We all know that open, armed conflict between the US and Pakistan would only turn out one way. It won't be good for us, but I have no doubt it would be much worse for you. I am doubtful that the Pakistani military could take out a US carrier battle group, but even if they did, that's the kind of thing that starts a full scale conflict. Taking an unexpected cheap shot is one thing, but if you really want your country to be at war with the US, you're an idiot.

After you do something silly that prompts us to attack you; we won't be the only country at war with you. You have plenty of enemies in this regions and that's one reason you should get the hell out! Nobody likes you. You won't change ideologies by killing people. I hate the American ideology of might is right and will continue to do so till the day I die! Damn today's world is a bunch of cowards who would have let the US rule even if it were ruled by someone like Hitler.

I have no problem with different ideologies, and I personally would like the US to be as minimally involved in your region of the world as possible. But I don't consider terrorist attacks to be an ideological problem, and while I'd be fine with leaving everyone alone, I don't think we should ignore people who attack us. We didn't start the conflict in Afghanistan, and I find it ridiculous that people like you think the terrorists and their supporters are the wronged party. We only have a problem with your country to the extent that you refuse to help us fight the people who attacked us. Now, putting aside ideology for a second...does that really seem so unreasonable?

If you have read any of my other posts on this board, you'd realize I don't agree with the neo-con warmongering ideology or the "America is always right" philosophy. But I think that if someone attacks you, you have a right to defend yourself. And if someone else helps you're attackers, then they're just as valid of a target. Ultimately, if people in your region of the world want to stop having to deal with the United States, it's going to require you dealing with things yourselves. The world is smaller than ever, and as long as you can build a bomb in your country and bring it to mine, what you do in your country is very much my business.

I don't want to get into a dick measuring contest with you about our respective country's military capabilities, but I find it a little hard to believe you think it would be a good idea for your country to attack the US directly. Our "enemies" in the region love to talk a good game, but I think that's mostly because they know there is no consequence for doing so. To think that they would band together if one of them attacked us is not very realistic. And I can't help but noticing that you're very good at not being a "coward" when all you have to do is talk big on a message board. Real war is a whole different thing, though, isn't it?

Killing millions for avenging 3000 is NOT defending yourself. It's illegal aggression and all responsible should be tried for each of those innocent deaths!

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
If nothing else its time to point out some things to Rainsford who asks---How about Pakistan does anything at all of value to the rest of the world, THEN you can talk shit all you like.

To start out, Pakistan has arrested more Al-Quida operatives than the rest of the WORLD COMBINED. And I don't think there is any doubt about it, Pakistan has done a far better job than the USA in keeping their kookie right wing nuts in the ineffective minority. Gee what a revaluation, Pakistan is going to have its own foreign policy goals, and sometimes they are not going to be the same as US goals. Pakistan has not sold itself into being indentured servants to the US contrary to some people's idiot expectations.

But my guess is, any US forced entry into Pakistan is going to be a horrible blunder that will backfires on the USA. And will end up empowering the very terrorists groups we don't want to see gain credibility, not just in the region, but world wide.

Pakistan is definitely a valuable ally, when they can be counted on. The problem is that this isn't possible a lot of the time. I realize that you don't like our "cookie right wing nuts", and to be honest I don't either, but to think our extremist problems here are anything like what Pakistan has is pretty silly. The Republicans may not be your cup of tea, but when was the last time they assassinated a center-left candidate for leading the political opposition?

I have no problem with Pakistan doing whatever they like, my point was more directed towards people in other countries that get this holier than thou attitude towards the United States. I think we can reasonably talk about policy differences, and chances are I agree with some of the points being made, but when it turns into a "my country is better than your country" pissing match, I'm inclined to ask people to put up or shut up. And honestly, I'd be fine with either. I think you know I'm not a raving nationalist, but I'm not a big fan of being talked down to by someone with a big ego and no cause for it.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: Rainsford
And please stop with the chest thumping, it's getting pretty silly. We all know that open, armed conflict between the US and Pakistan would only turn out one way. It won't be good for us, but I have no doubt it would be much worse for you. I am doubtful that the Pakistani military could take out a US carrier battle group, but even if they did, that's the kind of thing that starts a full scale conflict. Taking an unexpected cheap shot is one thing, but if you really want your country to be at war with the US, you're an idiot.

After you do something silly that prompts us to attack you; we won't be the only country at war with you. You have plenty of enemies in this regions and that's one reason you should get the hell out! Nobody likes you. You won't change ideologies by killing people. I hate the American ideology of might is right and will continue to do so till the day I die! Damn today's world is a bunch of cowards who would have let the US rule even if it were ruled by someone like Hitler.

I have no problem with different ideologies, and I personally would like the US to be as minimally involved in your region of the world as possible. But I don't consider terrorist attacks to be an ideological problem, and while I'd be fine with leaving everyone alone, I don't think we should ignore people who attack us. We didn't start the conflict in Afghanistan, and I find it ridiculous that people like you think the terrorists and their supporters are the wronged party. We only have a problem with your country to the extent that you refuse to help us fight the people who attacked us. Now, putting aside ideology for a second...does that really seem so unreasonable?

If you have read any of my other posts on this board, you'd realize I don't agree with the neo-con warmongering ideology or the "America is always right" philosophy. But I think that if someone attacks you, you have a right to defend yourself. And if someone else helps you're attackers, then they're just as valid of a target. Ultimately, if people in your region of the world want to stop having to deal with the United States, it's going to require you dealing with things yourselves. The world is smaller than ever, and as long as you can build a bomb in your country and bring it to mine, what you do in your country is very much my business.

I don't want to get into a dick measuring contest with you about our respective country's military capabilities, but I find it a little hard to believe you think it would be a good idea for your country to attack the US directly. Our "enemies" in the region love to talk a good game, but I think that's mostly because they know there is no consequence for doing so. To think that they would band together if one of them attacked us is not very realistic. And I can't help but noticing that you're very good at not being a "coward" when all you have to do is talk big on a message board. Real war is a whole different thing, though, isn't it?

Killing millions for avenging 3000 is NOT defending yourself. It's illegal aggression and all responsible should be tried for each of those innocent deaths!

Two points:

1) We have not "killed millions
2) I don't agree with the invasion of Iraq, which seems to be the main source of those kind of complaints

I do however think we were perfectly justified in invading Afghanistan. A terrorist group there attacked us, and the government in Afghanistan refused to turn over those responsible. It doesn't seem like it get's a lot more clear cut than that. And as for Pakistan, I will admit that your country has been helpful sometimes in capturing the terrorists who cross the border. But in many cases that's not been happening. Now I'll say it again, these are people who attacked us...is asking for help catching them so unreasonable?

 

[Lemon law]

I think Rainsfort is somewhat arguing at cross purposes. By in large I think there WAS world wide agreement that a US invasion of Afghanistan was justified. But the notion that Pakistan is responsible for the resurgence of the taliban, basically a group of retro reactionary nuts lacking any education is absurd.

But when the Nato occupation has only 62,000 troops in a nation of 31 million, when the US and Nato have done basically nothing to provide the economic aid that would prove the Taliban has nothing to offer the Afghan people, and then the US empowers war lords who have taken over much of Afghanistan, it becomes an easy sell for the Taliban to say
all your miseries are caused by Western influences.

This is still a battle for the hearts and minds of the Afghan people and its a battle that must take place in the free marketplace of ideas. Its totally absurd that 62,000 Nato troops or even triple that will do anything but prove the taliban correct. The taliban will still find new refuges as the USA becomes the most hated nation in the region.

In many ways, The Green Bean is somewhat a typical modern Pakistani, he wants to support the US efforts, but its certainly equally possible to get all Pakistanis to unite against the USA.

And when we have so few Pakistanis posting on P&N, I hardly think we should dismiss The Green Bean as some defiant nut that fails to fall down and worship us. If he is anything remotely resembling typical, its a warning that we should heed.

 

[ranmaniac]

The report sounds more like a psyop, if they were actually going to do such operations, they wouldn't report them before they happen, but after.

 

[Socio]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
I think Rainsfort is somewhat arguing at cross purposes. By in large I think there WAS world wide agreement that a US invasion of Afghanistan was justified. But the notion that Pakistan is responsible for the resurgence of the taliban, basically a group of retro reactionary nuts lacking any education is absurd.

It is happening on their soil, their willful inaction to doing anything about it makes it 100% their fault and makes them responsible for the resurgence of the Taliban!

If there were terrorists training and arming in the US and going across Canada?s borders and attacking them then running back while the US government did nothing about it, just who do you think would be responsible for these terrorists? actions?

The US Government that?s who and no one could blame Canada for crossing US borders to stop them either, absolutely no one.