Hot Pursuit Into Pakistan?

[conehead433]

It's funny that we are poised to go after insurgents on the Afghan Pakistan border after Barack Obama was severely criticized for recommending doing just that. And he's still the only politician who has stated he wants to go after OBL.

 

[Lemon law]

Socio goes totally absurd with---It is happening on their soil, their willful inaction to doing anything about it makes it 100% their fault and makes them responsible for the resurgence of the Taliban!

I do not think so, the very second that the taliban loses the support of the Afghan people they are toast, Pakistan has little to do with Afghanistan.

Its just like saying if John Walker Lindt roots for the taliban, they are all his fault. Well we jailed ole Jonney, and its gotten us no where.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
I think Rainsfort is somewhat arguing at cross purposes. By in large I think there WAS world wide agreement that a US invasion of Afghanistan was justified. But the notion that Pakistan is responsible for the resurgence of the taliban, basically a group of retro reactionary nuts lacking any education is absurd.

But when the Nato occupation has only 62,000 troops in a nation of 31 million, when the US and Nato have done basically nothing to provide the economic aid that would prove the Taliban has nothing to offer the Afghan people, and then the US empowers war lords who have taken over much of Afghanistan, it becomes an easy sell for the Taliban to say
all your miseries are caused by Western influences.

I am not blaming Pakistan alone, and I'll be the first to say that I think we made a mistake in putting Afghanistan on the back burner while we went adventuring in Iraq. That does not mean Pakistan is not partially at fault as well, because as hard as it is to clean up the Taliban influence in Afghanistan, it's virtually impossible when they are hiding out across the border.

This is still a battle for the hearts and minds of the Afghan people and its a battle that must take place in the free marketplace of ideas. Its totally absurd that 62,000 Nato troops or even triple that will do anything but prove the taliban correct. The taliban will still find new refuges as the USA becomes the most hated nation in the region.

I agree that troops alone aren't going to solve anything, but the free marketplace of ideas works best when nobody is trying to blow it up...and that IS something we can try and prevent, and something we need force to do.

In many ways, The Green Bean is somewhat a typical modern Pakistani, he wants to support the US efforts, but its certainly equally possible to get all Pakistanis to unite against the USA.

And when we have so few Pakistanis posting on P&N, I hardly think we should dismiss The Green Bean as some defiant nut that fails to fall down and worship us. If he is anything remotely resembling typical, its a warning that we should heed.

I don't think that's quite true. The Green Bean seems to have jumped on the bandwagon suggesting that the world (or at least his corner of it) would be a better place if the US just packed up and left town tomorrow. Not, "there are things that could be done better", he clearly thinks we caused all the problems in the Middle East and everywhere else and things would work out just great if we weren't there.

And I have no problem with people not falling down and worshipping the US, but if someone wishes for war against a country far more powerful than their own because said country pisses them off, then as far as I'm concerned they ARE a defiant nut, just as bad as all the warmongering idiots in THIS country.

 

[jpeyton]

They are a sovereign nation. Just because we failed to finish the job in Afghanistan and chased our enemies across their border does not give us the right to conduct military operations without their permission.

Pakistan should condemn this quickly and mobilize their own troops to counteract any unilateral US military action within their country.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
They are a sovereign nation. Just because we failed to finish the job in Afghanistan and chased our enemies across their border does not give us the right to conduct military operations without their permission.

Pakistan should condemn this quickly and mobilize their own troops to counteract any unilateral US military action within their country.

We are also a sovereign nation, and we have a right to defend ourselves. And while I don't agree with the idea that you're either with us or against us, refusing to either let us track down the people who attacked us or doing it themselves, Pakistan would clearly be acting against the US. Which I suppose is their right as a sovereign nation, but it doesn't seem reasonable that they would expect us to accept them doing nothing about the situation.

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: jpeyton
They are a sovereign nation. Just because we failed to finish the job in Afghanistan and chased our enemies across their border does not give us the right to conduct military operations without their permission.

Pakistan should condemn this quickly and mobilize their own troops to counteract any unilateral US military action within their country.

We are also a sovereign nation, and we have a right to defend ourselves. And while I don't agree with the idea that you're either with us or against us, refusing to either let us track down the people who attacked us or doing it themselves, Pakistan would clearly be acting against the US. Which I suppose is their right as a sovereign nation, but it doesn't seem reasonable that they would expect us to accept them doing nothing about the situation.

We can't do anything about it, besides the occasional "accident" bombing of their troops like we did a few weeks ago. There can be no third-front in our ill-run war on terror. Getting Pakistan or Iran involved would ensure the next two generations of young Americans would be sent overseas to die.

People should stop thinking with their emotions and do a simple real-world cost/benefit analysis. No sane military official will tell you that either Iran or Pakistan are worth engaging in a large military conflict. We're sending in small specops teams and that's it. If those teams are met with hostility from Pakistan or Iran, we'll withdraw them.

 

[Aimster]

so an F-16 versus one of those Chinese F-16s clones Pakistan has.

This will be fun

 

[palehorse]

:thumbsup:

If only we had done the same six years ago... allowing the Taliban recover, grow, and fester in Pakistan was a blunder of the highest order.

May they all burn in hell - along with each and every one of their supporters here and abroad.

 

[Aimster]

U.S screwed up in Afghanistan.
Mission failed.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Aimster
U.S screwed up in Afghanistan.
Mission failed.

Giving up is easy... fuck easy.

Let me guess, your parents bought you 10th place trophies when you were young... amiright?

I bet I am.

 

[Aimster]

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: Aimster
U.S screwed up in Afghanistan.
Mission failed.

Giving up is easy... fuck easy.

Let me guess, your parents bought you 10th place trophies when you were young... amiright?

I bet I am.

When you were in 10th grade your father took you outside to milk your first cow so you could sell milk to the local market.

I bet I am right.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
They are a sovereign nation. Just because we failed to finish the job in Afghanistan and chased our enemies across their border does not give us the right to conduct military operations without their permission.

Pakistan should condemn this quickly and mobilize their own troops to counteract any unilateral US military action within their country.

By your logic, we should not even have worried about Afghanistan.:thumbsdown:

 

[Jhhnn]

Originally posted by: Socio

Originally posted by: Lemon law
I think Rainsfort is somewhat arguing at cross purposes. By in large I think there WAS world wide agreement that a US invasion of Afghanistan was justified. But the notion that Pakistan is responsible for the resurgence of the taliban, basically a group of retro reactionary nuts lacking any education is absurd.

It is happening on their soil, their willful inaction to doing anything about it makes it 100% their fault and makes them responsible for the resurgence of the Taliban!

If there were terrorists training and arming in the US and going across Canada?s borders and attacking them then running back while the US government did nothing about it, just who do you think would be responsible for these terrorists? actions?

The US Government that?s who and no one could blame Canada for crossing US borders to stop them either, absolutely no one.

clearly, you don't understand the political system in Pakistan. The tribal areas along the afghani borders are basically autonomous- always have been. Even though they were technically part of the british Raj, the brits didn't really rule there, either.

If you want to understand how they became a hotbed of radical islam, you have only to reach back to the RR era, when Pustuns from both sides of the border were armed and trained by the US, and our erstwhile Saudi allies provided relief and education in their madrasses- radical islamic texts were actually printed in the US, paid for by the CIA...

It was all about getting the soviets out of afghanistan, and I'm sure we made a lot of promises that were never kept. If nothing else, it should teach us that we need to be more careful about starting fires- they may last longer and move in ways that are unanticipated...

Republican rule, in general, has been very much about ignoring the law of unintended consequences- they're so sure that they're right in their own radical ideology that they take all kinds of risks that truly sane leadership would avoid...

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: Aimster
U.S screwed up in Afghanistan.
Mission failed.

Giving up is easy... fuck easy.

Let me guess, your parents bought you 10th place trophies when you were young... amiright?

I bet I am.

When you were in 10th grade your father took you outside to milk your first cow so you could sell milk to the local market.

I bet I am right.

lol.. i grew up in the middle-class suburbs of DC you fool.

I simply despise pessimists, whiners, and quitters... they're a waste of good oxygen.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
clearly, you don't understand the political system in Pakistan. The tribal areas along the afghani borders are basically autonomous- always have been. Even though they were technically part of the british Raj, the brits didn't really rule there, either.

If that were true, then they shouldn't have any fucking problem with us going into that area, should they?

If they claim it as their own, and attempt to prevent our entry, then they become responsible for the terrorism being exported from there. They can't have it both ways... it's either Pakistan, or it's autonomous. If it's autonomous, then they can STFU and let us do what we have to do.

My theory is that Pakistan allows the problem to fester in that region for a few reasons:

1) The Pakistani military is completely inept and ill equipped. Most of our military aid has been pocketed by their leadership, or dumped into their POS missile programs.

2) Too many among them quietly support the extremists (Taliban, AQ, others)

3) They need the area to remain a buffer between them and Afghanistan. If our efforts to clear the frontier region become too effective, they know the Taliban will retreat to the more populated areas of Pakistan, and they'll be fucked for reasons #1 and #2.

4) They simply don't care what the Taliban does in Afghanistan. If they try too hard to confront them, the Taliban will refocus their efforts on Pakistan itself. Which, for reasons #1 and #2, would be suicidal for their ruling elite.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
clearly, you don't understand the political system in Pakistan. The tribal areas along the afghani borders are basically autonomous- always have been. Even though they were technically part of the british Raj, the brits didn't really rule there, either.

If that were true, then they shouldn't have any fucking problem with us going into that area, should they?

If they claim it as their own, and attempt to prevent our entry, then they become responsible for the terrorism being exported from there. They can't have it both ways... it's either Pakistan, or it's autonomous. If it's autonomous, then they can STFU and let us do what we have to do.

My theory is that Pakistan allows the problem to fester in that region for a few reasons:

1) The Pakistani military is completely inept and ill equipped. Most of our military aid has been pocketed by their leadership, or dumped into their POS missile programs.

2) Too many among them quietly support the extremists (Taliban, AQ, others)

3) They need the area to remain a buffer between them and Afghanistan. If our efforts to clear the frontier region become too effective, they know the Taliban will retreat to the more populated areas of Pakistan, and they'll be fucked for reasons #1 and #2.

4) They simply don't care what the Taliban does in Afghanistan. If they try too hard to confront them, the Taliban will refocus their efforts on Pakistan itself. Which, for reasons #1 and #2, would be suicidal for their ruling elite.

You should remember that more Pakistanis have died in this illegal war than Americans. If they were so unwilling none would've died! The fact is it is the Americans that are unwilling and too coward to fight like men. Instead they use Air bombardment that has the opposite of the desired effect. You have more taliban sympathizers and they run into Pakistan where we care more for civilian life. It's the Americans that are making the situation in Pakistan worse; not the other way round! Hell you don't even control all districts in central Afghanistan; have no real central rule and have the highest opium production in the world by far. Talk about success!! Just because you suck doesn't mean you can blame all your problems on us!

 

[sandorski]

As long as it's not a full blown invasion and more along the lines of surgical strikes I think the situation might not cause too much in the way of Diplomatic problems. Temporary ground incursions into tribal areas might also be possible. Find Al Queda or Taliban Camps, clean them out and leave.

 

[crisscross]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
I think Rainsfort is somewhat arguing at cross purposes. By in large I think there WAS world wide agreement that a US invasion of Afghanistan was justified. But the notion that Pakistan is responsible for the resurgence of the taliban, basically a group of retro reactionary nuts lacking any education is absurd.

But when the Nato occupation has only 62,000 troops in a nation of 31 million, when the US and Nato have done basically nothing to provide the economic aid that would prove the Taliban has nothing to offer the Afghan people, and then the US empowers war lords who have taken over much of Afghanistan, it becomes an easy sell for the Taliban to say
all your miseries are caused by Western influences.

This is still a battle for the hearts and minds of the Afghan people and its a battle that must take place in the free marketplace of ideas. Its totally absurd that 62,000 Nato troops or even triple that will do anything but prove the taliban correct. The taliban will still find new refuges as the USA becomes the most hated nation in the region.

In many ways, The Green Bean is somewhat a typical modern Pakistani, he wants to support the US efforts, but its certainly equally possible to get all Pakistanis to unite against the USA.

And when we have so few Pakistanis posting on P&N, I hardly think we should dismiss The Green Bean as some defiant nut that fails to fall down and worship us. If he is anything remotely resembling typical, its a warning that we should heed.

huh? you really dont think Pakistan has anything to do with Taliban's resurgence?

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: crisscross


huh? you really dont think Pakistan has anything to do with Taliban's resurgence?

So you mean we have a lot to do with some insurgency that is killing our people and soldiers? :roll: Just yesterday 17 of our soldiers died in an ambush. Sad state of affairs.

 

[Lemon law]

Are there any here who really believe the palehorse claim that if given permission to widen the war into the tribal areas of Pakistan, that a better job can be done? Not when a way to small force of only 62,000 is way too small for Afghanistan for Afghanistan alone. After all, its not like the Taliban and the local Pastun tribal leaders are a different ethnic groups, and the Taliban does not exactly wear caps with T's on them to say who they are. The Taliban is a local home grown movement and that is exactly the problem.

All this desire to widen the war into Pakistan is nothing but a smokescreen excuse to hide the fact that NATO does not have the resources, strategy, or smarts to beat a small number of reactionary people who have nothing to offer the Afghan people in terms of a future. And then as bad as the Taliban is, Nato then goes on to prove Nato offers even less of a future for the Afghan people.

And then someone like palehorse wonders why Pakistan does not want to import his brand of incompetence and anarchy??

And meanwhile back at the ranch, we start to lose sight of something very very important. The Taliban is a local homegrown movement that only wants to govern its own turf. And its Al-Quida that attacked us on 911. And basically Al-Quida used the Taliban and attacked the USA without the knowledge and consent of the Taliban. So why why why are we going after just the Taliban and ignoring Al-Quida??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

But when you think of it, the Taliban has nothing to offer anyone in a modern world. I know it, Palehorse knows it, most of Pakistan knows it, and so does everyone in the modern world. Which is exactly the problem, the Afghan people do not know it because the modern world has skipped Afghanistan and the only benefits of the modern world has brought to Afghanistan have been negative better way to kill and oppress the local population.

And if we start thinking along those lines, the answer is obvious, not only is our current approach defective and counter productive, the way to beat the Taliban is to bring in the positive benefits of the modern world. And then the Taliban itself will join the rest of the modern world and modify its own ideals more in accordance with our own. It simply takes economic development, not in tiny trickles, but in massive amounts. Still far cheaper long term than the military method which will NEVER SUCCEED.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: cirrrocco

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Gobadgrs
Why does the news media go out of their fuckin' way to report what secret stuff we're planning to do in the war on terror. I'd much rather learn that we went in to Pakistan unilaterally after the strike was done and our guys were out safe than by some wanker whos determined to give out all details ahead of time.

And the people that are leaking this shit should be put in jail for endangering soldiers lives like that.

Oh please. You can't miss an attack group, especially an Aircraft Carrier based group.

Did you know India does not allow any U.S. military operations in any of it's territory?

Well india offered complete access to bases right after 911, and the US refused. so you can't pin the blame on india here. It is a different story altogether now after the US misadventure in iraq and the Indian public dont want to give any basing rights to the US.

That is correct. India is of course against Imperialism.

Why would they risk an England II?

 

[Lemon law]

GoBadgers forgot to asks another question when he asked----Why does the news media go out of their fuckin' way to report what secret stuff we're planning to do in the war on terror.

The forgotten question is, how did the news media find out if GWB&co wanted to keep it secret?---answer basically is GWB&co released it so he could do his little geopolitical saber rattle using the world press.

Now that the little boy who cried wolf didn't work, he tries the three little pigs version of the big bad wolf. He says I'm a sending an aircraft carrier followed by, open the door, or I will huff and I will puff until I blow your house down. And if Pakistan basically sticks to its original position and continues to keep their door shut, GWB&co will have wasted more US taxpayer money sending aircraft carriers on fools missions. Because that was the original deal, no US boots on the ground conducting combat missions on Pakistani soil

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
And then someone like palehorse wonders why Pakistan does not want to import his brand of incompetence and anarchy??

HA! Pakistan "importing" anarchy and incompetence?! that's a fucking riot!

you're a laugh a minute Lemon...

And, just for the record, I've said all along that Afghanistan's infrastructure (roads, comms, education) ranks up there just as high as killing the Taliban wherever they run. I'll leave it up to you to take care of the first part, and I'll continue to take care of the second. After all, you can't build a damn thing if the Taliban keep hopping over from Pakistan to blow it up again.

deal?

What? You won't help? The task is too daunting?!

shocker.

Meanwhile, back to reality...

 

[Lemon law]

You have things a little backwards here, first Nato was only the armaments dealer that allowed the Northern alliance to push the Taliban into Pakistan. Making the tribal areas of Pakistan very unstable while the Northern Alliance went back to feast on the spoils of Afghanistan. Basically the Northern alliance used Nato to win their civil war. Your myth is that Pakistan is the last remaining refuge of the Taliban. They have all those Stans to the North, they can filter back into Afghanistan and you will not know it, if you bother to read some of those links I am providing you will see its becoming a much larger proxy war, with funding coming from the Mid East, and fighters are joining from even further East
to join those coming from the mid East. The wider the war gets the thinner spread you get. And the very second Pakistan starts to suspect their Eastern boogie man India is active in Afghanistan, you add total paranoia to the mix.

But I get despair out of-----------and I'll continue to take care of the second.

Exactly the problem, you can't take care of the second as it is and will lose all control as soon as the war widens to a bigger area.

But you are right we need far more troops, five times what we have at least and far more economic aid. Exactly the point I have been making all along. The problem is, as long as the US proves itself to be even a bigger curse than the Taliban, we will continue to lose. And your kill kill kill metric makes us the bigger problem.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: mxyzptlk

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
I can't see what my ball-less idiot leaders in Islamabad are doing!! Time to tell the USA they are on their own. That means no more overflights. That also means all American equipment in Pakistan will be confiscated. That also means that if Pakistan's territory is within limits so are their carrier groups and bases. I'm sure they'll be coming out with tougher measures on Monday. Damn we have so many enemies here!

I think the world would get a lot more interesting if Pakistan managed to take out the entire carrier group with a well placed nuclear weapon!

I don't think they would need to use nuclear weapons. A few conventional cruise missiles and ballistic missiles should do. It's to risky to try nukes. I don't trust the Americans. They would even resort to nuking our civilian population to take revenge. And I also think that it would be our right to take out your carrier group after so many illegal acts of war. Too bad the U.N is just a bunch of clowns headed by a joker who would still condemn us even after America kills half our population.

What are you talking about? A carrier group has ample anti-missile defenses, Pakistan's military by comparison to America's is inept, like a pre-ejaculatory teenager vs Peter North.

Pakistan has done a far better job than the USA in keeping their kookie right wing nuts in the ineffective minority.

That's a strange statement considering Green Bean a couple of weeks ago spoke of a provincial capital in Pakistan that was poised to fall to extremists.

Now, it may be so that to go into Pakistan without its blessing turns out to be folly, but in the end if Pakistan has naughties in its borders and is unwilling/unable to do anything about them, it needs to accept assistance. To do otherwise is to give tacit approval.