Hot Pursuit Into Pakistan?

[Vonkhan]

It's called posturing ... saber-rattling ... google it

As much as I'd like to see it, there won't be any overt hot pursuit into pakistani territory imho.

The real problem is that the pakistani establishment has been in bed with radical Islam for so long that the two are now synonymous. The avg. mid level pak. army officer who has been supervising militants from Afghanistan to Kashmir isn't going to roll over to the civvies and start shooting at his homies.

 

[tvarad]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
If nothing else its time to point out some things to Rainsford who asks---How about Pakistan does anything at all of value to the rest of the world, THEN you can talk shit all you like.

To start out, Pakistan has arrested more Al-Quida operatives than the rest of the WORLD COMBINED.

This reminds me of the snake-charmer who used to let lose his snakes into people's houses and offer to round them all up - for a fee of-course.

 

[Lemon law]

The Skoorb delusion is that Pakistan cares about its tribal areas. As long as they can wall them off, its out of sight, out of mind. But once the Taliban got pushed there, it does become a problem. There is the sovereignty issue, there is the issue that Taliban fighters could be pushed into the modern parts of Pakistan and then cause problems there, there is the issue of the Indian boogie man operating in Afghanistan, and as long as the Taliban does not cause problems inside of the tribal areas of Pakistan, why should Pakistan care about any Nato problems? The original deal was and remains, Pakistan lent Nato a land based supply route into Afghanistan with the express agreement that no Nato based combat operations inside of Pakistani soil.

Now if anyone wants to progress past that point and say Pakistan should care about Nato problems, it becomes a two way street, and we better start asking what carrots does Nato have to make Pakistan work with Nato. Or better put, what common goals exists. Or we could even turn the question around and ask why Pakistan looks at the inept US occupation of Afghanistan and sees nothing but we don't want revulsion.

1. The first thing to understand is that Pakistan desperately needs a stable Afghanistan friendly to its interests. If nothing else, they need the trade routes into the Northern Stans that terrain dictated must go through Afghanistan. They had that under Taliban rule, but the Nato occupation has brought back anarchy and corruption that means goods can't move without being looted. Nor is Karzai or the Nato occupation on cheap seeming interested in bringing any degree of stability back to Afghanistan. Worse yet, if Pakistan even suspects its arch enemy India is importing agents to subvert Afghanistan, they go ballistic. As it is, Pakistani troop losses exceed Nato's when it tries to rein in the Taliban in the Tribal areas. And with numerous Afghani and Nato clashes with Pakistani troops trying to Patrol its side of the border, they are losing a pile more because Nato is seeming too arrogant to work with Pakistan.

2. The second thing to understand is that its presently a manageable problem for Pakistan in the tribal areas. But if they let Nato in, they know and Afghanistan is six year living proof example, that Nato will fubar the tribal areas beyond all belief.

3. Its a pride matter for Pakistan, they feel they are being made the scapegoat for Nato's failures in Afghanistan. And then worse yet, one fine day Nato will pull out and Pakistan will have a mess to their West and be at the mercy of a very powerful India.

4. All those things lead me to say, the key in securing Pakistani co operation is asking them what they want. But right now GWB and his cowboy its my way or the highway diplomacy is somewhat clueless on where to begin the process. And if our clueless military leaders are as clueless as palehorse, there are no back up systems. Add in a lot of current Pakistani political indecision on how to transition away from Musharraf, and it all adds up to one fine mess because there are no per say deciders in Pakistan either.

 

[Lemon law]

Originally posted by: tvarad

Originally posted by: Lemon law
If nothing else its time to point out some things to Rainsford who asks---How about Pakistan does anything at all of value to the rest of the world, THEN you can talk shit all you like.

To start out, Pakistan has arrested more Al-Quida operatives than the rest of the WORLD COMBINED.

This reminds me of the snake-charmer who used to let lose his snakes into people's houses and offer to round them all up - for a fee of-course.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And let the real snake charmer stand up, none other than Ronald Reagan who got this whole thing started with his decision to arm and train terrorists in Afghanistan so they could tweak the nose of the Russian bear. And once mission accomplished nose tweaked, we let Afghanistan descend into anarchy, we gave Al-Quida its start, we paved the way for the Taliban, it all led up to 911, and we can't connect the dots and realize our own snake bit us. And now we are back, breeding more snakes, and we are such arrogant prigs, and can't understand that there is nothing charming about us, meaning we can't charm our own snakes back into our baskets.

So we pay the fee ourselves to breed more snakes.

thanks tvarad, good analogy.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: Lemon law

Originally posted by: tvarad

Originally posted by: Lemon law
If nothing else its time to point out some things to Rainsford who asks---How about Pakistan does anything at all of value to the rest of the world, THEN you can talk shit all you like.

To start out, Pakistan has arrested more Al-Quida operatives than the rest of the WORLD COMBINED.

This reminds me of the snake-charmer who used to let lose his snakes into people's houses and offer to round them all up - for a fee of-course.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And let the real snake charmer stand up, none other than Ronald Reagan who got this whole thing started with his decision to arm and train terrorists in Afghanistan so they could tweak the nose of the Russian bear. And once mission accomplished nose tweaked, we let Afghanistan descend into anarchy, we gave Al-Quida its start, we paved the way for the Taliban, it all led up to 911, and we can't connect the dots and realize our own snake bit us. And now we are back, breeding more snakes, and we are such arrogant prigs, and can't understand that there is nothing charming about us, meaning we can't charm our own snakes back into our baskets.

So we pay the fee ourselves to breed more snakes.

thanks tvarad, good analogy.

Sounds about right.

 

[tvarad]

Originally posted by: Lemon law

Originally posted by: tvarad

Originally posted by: Lemon law
If nothing else its time to point out some things to Rainsford who asks---How about Pakistan does anything at all of value to the rest of the world, THEN you can talk shit all you like.

To start out, Pakistan has arrested more Al-Quida operatives than the rest of the WORLD COMBINED.

This reminds me of the snake-charmer who used to let lose his snakes into people's houses and offer to round them all up - for a fee of-course.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And let the real snake charmer stand up, none other than Ronald Reagan who got this whole thing started with his decision to arm and train terrorists in Afghanistan so they could tweak the nose of the Russian bear. And once mission accomplished nose tweaked, we let Afghanistan descend into anarchy, we gave Al-Quida its start, we paved the way for the Taliban, it all led up to 911, and we can't connect the dots and realize our own snake bit us. And now we are back, breeding more snakes, and we are such arrogant prigs, and can't understand that there is nothing charming about us, meaning we can't charm our own snakes back into our baskets.

So we pay the fee ourselves to breed more snakes.

thanks tvarad, good analogy.

Reagan is six feet under. Get over it.

There were plenty of other countries in the neighborhood that suffered the consequences of Reagan's folly. India watched with horror as Pakistan's Zia used American largesse to destabilize Indian Punjab and Kashmir and developed nukes (which amazingly the Americans turned a blind eye to), the consequences of which it is living with even today. And yet it bears no permanent grudge against the Americans, unlike Pakistan or Taliban who took American help as long as it was needed against the Soviets and conveniently forgot about it as soon as they left Afghanistan.

Your reply is nothing but Islamist moping much like the Nazi did after the Versailles treaty about a perceived set of grievances. It remains to be seen whether the rest of the events leading to WWII will also be played out.

 

[Lemon law]

The Tvarad remark that------Reagan is six feet under. Get over it.

Like Wow, its so profound, maybe we should dig him up and lash his dead body with wet noodles.

The point is we have to realize we are now repeating the same basic mistakes as the same type of stinking thinking lives on in our neocons.

Would it be too much to ask if I simply point out that we need to learn our lessons and get smarter in the future? I happen to think Afghanistan can result in a everyone wins, its a matter of being smarter and changing our strategy. But the present strategy seems to be counter productive and a sure loser for everyone but the terrorists.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: Lemon law

4. All those things lead me to say, the key in securing Pakistani co operation is asking them what they want. But right now GWB and his cowboy its my way or the highway diplomacy is somewhat clueless on where to begin the process. And if our clueless military leaders are as clueless as palehorse, there are no back up systems. Add in a lot of current Pakistani political indecision on how to transition away from Musharraf, and it all adds up to one fine mess because there are no per say deciders in Pakistan either.

One thing the Pakistanis have been pissed off about is that India does nothing for the US and it gets a nuclear deal. Pakistan on the other hand goes to battle; loses a few troops but still supports the US only gets to see their arch-rival get all the goodies. You can't show double standards. If you want something from us you WILL have to give something back.

Inflation here is above 21.5% this week. Is anybody going to do anything about it? No! Why? Because the politicians are too busy spending millions trying to decide who gets what powers and then there is the taliban constantly killing and spreading evil. Then there's the US who tries to get its own way while Pakistani hates it to the death and blames for the current problems. I don't know what will happen but sometimes I feel it would be an achievement for Pakistan to survive the next year. To hell with democracy!!!

 

[Vonkhan]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

One thing the Pakistanis have been pissed off about is that India does nothing for the US and it gets a nuclear deal. Pakistan on the other hand goes to battle; loses a few troops but still supports the US only gets to see their arch-rival get all the goodies. You can't show double standards. If you want something from us you WILL have to give something back.

Inflation here is above 21.5% this week. Is anybody going to do anything about it? No! Why? Because the politicians are too busy spending millions trying to decide who gets what powers and then there is the taliban constantly killing and spreading evil. Then there's the US who tries to get its own way while Pakistani hates it to the death and blames for the current problems. I don't know what will happen but sometimes I feel it would be an achievement for Pakistan to survive the next year. To hell with democracy!!!

Probably because India does a lot for itself? ... like a stable democracy, a secular state, a booming economy, Fortune 500 companies & high-Q educational institutions

Over the last few decades, Indian politicians (corrupt as they were) invested in India. pakistan, on the other hand, invested in destabilizing & countering India. The result is here for you to see. All that talk of Kashmir & Punjab & the oppressed Muslims of India ... glass houses, ey? Such is karma

pakistan started using Islamic fundamentalism under Zia, as a US proxy with plenty of help from the CIA to combat the Russians. Once they saw how cost efficient it was, they used it against India as well as to install the Taliban in power. Great plan, except that they forgot the 'unifying' mentality of Islamic fundamentalism - and the militant, as a whole, became larger than the cause of pakistan itself. This is further compounded by an national identity crisis in pakistan - "are we Muslim or are we pakistani?"

to be continued ...

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
...
Inflation here is above 21.5% this week. Is anybody going to do anything about it? No! Why? Because the politicians are too busy spending millions trying to decide who gets what powers and then there is the Taliban constantly killing and spreading evil. Then there's the US who tries to get its own way while Pakistani hates it to the death and blames for the current problems. I don't know what will happen but sometimes I feel it would be an achievement for Pakistan to survive the next year. To hell with democracy!!!

A couple of weeks ago, you were stating how Pakistan has no quarrel with the Taliban and Pakistan should not interfere with what is happening w/ respect to the Taliban in Afghanistan.

then you complain about the potential for the loss of a city to rebels and applaud the fact that the government was going to work with the tribes to eliminate the Taliban.
then a few days later, the government does an about face stating that they are no going to do anything w/ respect to the Taliban.
Now you imply that the Taliban are constantly killing and spreading evil.

this is the monster that Pakistan has nurtured over the past 10+ years, and the they are trying to eradicate in Afghanistan. And Pakistan has refused help to cleanup the mess and has refused to help NATO by closing off the safety of Pakistan to the Taliban.

You have reaped what you sowed. Decide what you want for your country and accept the consequences of your actions.

Do you want the Taliban to stay and grow stronger; alienating Pakistan to some of the world opinion and trade, and potentially/or weakening Pakistan to be susceptible to a take over by the more radicals.

Or do you want to admit that the support of the Taliban was wrong and Pakistan would like assistance to removing the threat from their country.

Which do you fear most; the Taliban or admitting that you were wrong about the Taliban?

 

[Lemon law]

Excuse me Common Courtesy, but that is not how I see it at all. Nor do I feel any perverse desire to kill the messenger because I like or do not like the message. By himself, The Green Bean is one insignificant person, but if he even remotely resembles what the average Pakistani feels, proving The Green Bean wrong in your mind does nothing to change Pakistani attitudes.

And because Pakistani attitudes are the one of the major keys to solving Afghanistan, I suggest we all do more listening than lecturing when it comes to The Green Bean.
After all, we have very few Pakistanis posting here, Americans of all stripes are a dime a dozen.

And if we in the USA want to look at what the rest of the world thinks of us, we better be prepared to have our ego's knocked down, way down.

By in large we offer no solutions, we are the problem.

 

[EagleKeeper]

The Green Bean seems to want us to think that he is a barometer of the Pakistani attitude.

If he is able within two-three weeks provide a different direction/concern about the Taliban problem mulitple times.

Therefore, either Pakistan does not realize the seriousness, care about the Taliban or lying to themselves and others depending on what side of the fence thay are sitting on.

TGB states taht they have no quarrel with the Taliban.

Yet he posts how they are worrired about the Taliban teaming up with rebels to take over a major city, when the Taliban can do not harm "the problem is AQ".

Then an announcment comes in that they ahve launched an offsensive.
The next day, there is a truce - the Taliban is not a problem.

Now, TGB comes is stating how evel the Taliban are and implies that they must be destroyed.


Does he represent the attitude of the Pakistani people?
Much of the facts that he states is echoed by news releases.

Therefore, Pakistan has no plans on getting themselves out of the predictment that they climbed into bed with.

 

[Lemon law]

The Common Courtesy delusion may be wholly contained in the last statement of------Therefore, Pakistan has no plans on getting themselves out of the predictment that they climbed into bed with.

While I will grant that Pakistan was not totally innocent in crawling into bed with the Taliban, its still a matter that the USA is a root cause of the Taliban also, and partly due to the USA, Pakistan is in a no win situation.

The Common Courtesy implication that we are blameless here is bullshit. And the truth can set both nations free, denial only guarantees a continuation of six plus years of failure for both nations. United we can stand, divided we will fall.

 

[tvarad]

Lemon Law"

"While I will grant that Pakistan was not totally innocent in crawling into bed with the Taliban, its still a matter that the USA is a root cause of the Taliban also, and partly due to the USA, Pakistan is in a no win situation."

What B.S.. The root cause of the Afghanistan mess is the two-timing nature of Pakistan in it's dealings with both the Afghans and Americans. The structure of Pakistan is such that it cannot survive if there's stability all around, since it's made it it's business to be in perpetual war with it's neighbors ever since it's inception. Solve the Pakistan problem and Afghanistan will be solved; not the other way around.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
The Green Bean seems to want us to think that he is a barometer of the Pakistani attitude.

If he is able within two-three weeks provide a different direction/concern about the Taliban problem mulitple times.

Therefore, either Pakistan does not realize the seriousness, care about the Taliban or lying to themselves and others depending on what side of the fence thay are sitting on.

TGB states taht they have no quarrel with the Taliban.

Yet he posts how they are worrired about the Taliban teaming up with rebels to take over a major city, when the Taliban can do not harm "the problem is AQ".

Then an announcment comes in that they ahve launched an offsensive.
The next day, there is a truce - the Taliban is not a problem.

Now, TGB comes is stating how evel the Taliban are and implies that they must be destroyed.


Does he represent the attitude of the Pakistani people?
Much of the facts that he states is echoed by news releases.

Therefore, Pakistan has no plans on getting themselves out of the predictment that they climbed into bed with.

There is little doubt that the ISI and Taliban forces are helping each other right now but this is going to either have to change or the Pakistani government will have to admit that they have no control what so ever over the area and let us do our job, that's the way it is and it's not going to change, there isn't a chance in hell that that will change.

The ONLY thing that is going to happen is that the ISI troops will get dead if they get in the way and while Pakistan will look for an apology for it, none will be offered, offering safe refuge for our enemies comes with a price, if you choose to do so, you'll get dead, it might not be today, nor tomorrow, but as sure as the sun will rise you can count on it coming.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
The Common Courtesy delusion may be wholly contained in the last statement of------Therefore, Pakistan has no plans on getting themselves out of the predictment that they climbed into bed with.

While I will grant that Pakistan was not totally innocent in crawling into bed with the Taliban, its still a matter that the USA is a root cause of the Taliban also, and partly due to the USA, Pakistan is in a no win situation.

The Common Courtesy implication that we are blameless here is bullshit. And the truth can set both nations free, denial only guarantees a continuation of six plus years of failure for both nations. United we can stand, divided we will fall.

This forum has a quote function, picking sentences out of posts, misrepresenting them with idiotic comments only makes you dishonest, why on earth can't YOU get that when everyone else gets that?

Is it that you can't possibly be bothered to respond to the meaning of posts so you have to misrepresent them or is it your support for child killers and rapists who hate women?

I honestly don't know so why don't you tell me, son?

 

[Lemon law]

Well JOS, I may not know either, but I can't help but notice you are failing at the speed of light. So you advocate air strikes making you child killers, and then think you have the moral high ground because you don't rape them thereafter.

And then never seem to notice that is bad as the Taliban is, you manage to make your self even more morally degenerate in Afghan eyes.

But then again, my error, you don't care what the Afghan people think. You had to kill all 31 million of them to save them, Hitler would be so jealous of your superior reasoning.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Well JOS, I may not know either, but I can't help but notice you are failing at the speed of light. So you advocate air strikes making you child killers, and then think you have the moral high ground because you don't rape them thereafter.

And then never seem to notice that is bad as the Taliban is, you manage to make your self even more morally degenerate in Afghan eyes.

But then again, my error, you don't care what the Afghan people think. You had to kill all 31 million of them to save them, Hitler would be so jealous of your superior reasoning.

Is this Afghan eyes or your eyes?

You have been applying your Western/moral values to the situation based on reports.

Until you are actually seeing what is going on, you are judging based on the eyes/words of another.

JOS, PH and others are actually reporting what they are observing first hand; not what you are associating third hand.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Well JOS, I may not know either, but I can't help but notice you are failing at the speed of light. So you advocate air strikes making you child killers, and then think you have the moral high ground because you don't rape them thereafter.

And then never seem to notice that is bad as the Taliban is, you manage to make your self even more morally degenerate in Afghan eyes.

But then again, my error, you don't care what the Afghan people think. You had to kill all 31 million of them to save them, Hitler would be so jealous of your superior reasoning.

I advocate air strikes that ARE DIRECTED FROM THE GROUND AT SPECIFIC TROOP PLACEMENTS.

But yeah, i'm Hitler and Satan and a Child killer and everything else, and your understanding is that you don't care what the Afghani people think, YOU DO NOT GIVE A FLYING FUCK ABOUT THEM IF THEY AGREE WITH ME, then they are WRONG while the Talibans who raped and tortured their daughters and wives to death ARE RIGHT!

I care what the Afghani people think and if you would have bothered to read any news reports or the government statements or even my posts you would know that we are welcomed here, by the government and the people and this government election had no outside sources to oversee the election besides the UN, that was it.

You could also have read the human rights watch's reports but that is such a dirty right wing Hilter organisation that doesn't like the torture and rape by the Talibans, i mean sure, they might be a bit harsh by shoving a broken bottle up a twelve year old girls vagina but hey, they have the right idea...

You know absolutely nothing, you defend the most horrendous people while calling me Hitler for fighting them to protect innocent children and women.

You are a very very sick individual, i almost wish i believed in hell, just for you.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

If all i cared about was the safety of the UK, then i would have signed off and gone home a long time ago, this fight is for the Afghani people and they haven't seen this kind of freedom in a long time, we are asked to join them and they apologize for not having much to eat, but they can eat enough to survive.

Under the Taliban rule every man above 13 were a soldier and every woman above the age of 9 was a slave, there was no such thing as human rights, the rights changed from day to day, if a Taliban wanted to cut a hole in the throat of the stomach of a 10 year old girl, he was free to do so, if he wanted to rape her and cut her throat to silence her screams he was free to do so.

The usual punishment for anyone they didn't like (they'd say they would report to "the enemy") were raped and usually left shot in the vagina to bleed to death, they punished their sisters, daughters, mothers because according to their religion they are the source of all evil in men.

Charges of witchcraft are still common in Taliban societies and in the places in Pakistan where the Taliban has regained rule the rapes and the killing of young women has gone back to normal for that kind of society while schools are not populated by anyone because no one dares.

This is what you defend Lemon Law, this is what i fight and for what you call me a Nazi.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Well JOS, I may not know either, but I can't help but notice you are failing at the speed of light. So you advocate air strikes making you child killers, and then think you have the moral high ground because you don't rape them thereafter.

And then never seem to notice that is bad as the Taliban is, you manage to make your self even more morally degenerate in Afghan eyes.

But then again, my error, you don't care what the Afghan people think. You had to kill all 31 million of them to save them, Hitler would be so jealous of your superior reasoning.

I advocate air strikes that ARE DIRECTED FROM THE GROUND AT SPECIFIC TROOP PLACEMENTS.

But yeah, i'm Hitler and Satan and a Child killer and everything else, and your understanding is that you don't care what the Afghani people think, YOU DO NOT GIVE A FLYING FUCK ABOUT THEM IF THEY AGREE WITH ME, then they are WRONG while the Talibans who raped and tortured their daughters and wives to death ARE RIGHT!

I care what the Afghani people think and if you would have bothered to read any news reports or the government statements or even my posts you would know that we are welcomed here, by the government and the people and this government election had no outside sources to oversee the election besides the UN, that was it.

You could also have read the human rights watch's reports but that is such a dirty right wing Hilter organisation that doesn't like the torture and rape by the Talibans, i mean sure, they might be a bit harsh by shoving a broken bottle up a twelve year old girls vagina but hey, they have the right idea...

You know absolutely nothing, you defend the most horrendous people while calling me Hitler for fighting them to protect innocent children and women.

You are a very very sick individual, i almost wish i believed in hell, just for you.

He can't know. VN era vets were baby killers too. Nothing changes.

Nevertheless, from an operational POV it is desirable to have a certain degree of freedom unhindered by borders. I think the days the Taliban retreating across the line to stick their tongues out with impunity are just about over.

What can you do with 62K troops? A hell of a lot with decent support and leadership.

 

[nick1985]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
They are a sovereign nation. Just because we failed to finish the job in Afghanistan and chased our enemies across their border does not give us the right to conduct military operations without their permission.

Pakistan should condemn this quickly and mobilize their own troops to counteract any unilateral US military action within their country.

So what do we do then? Afghanistan can never be totally won with the way the situation is with Pakistan. You seem to be for leaving Afghanistan and giving it back to the terrorists? If not, what would you do?

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Well JOS, I may not know either, but I can't help but notice you are failing at the speed of light. So you advocate air strikes making you child killers, and then think you have the moral high ground because you don't rape them thereafter.

And then never seem to notice that is bad as the Taliban is, you manage to make your self even more morally degenerate in Afghan eyes.

But then again, my error, you don't care what the Afghan people think. You had to kill all 31 million of them to save them, Hitler would be so jealous of your superior reasoning.

I advocate air strikes that ARE DIRECTED FROM THE GROUND AT SPECIFIC TROOP PLACEMENTS.

But yeah, i'm Hitler and Satan and a Child killer and everything else, and your understanding is that you don't care what the Afghani people think, YOU DO NOT GIVE A FLYING FUCK ABOUT THEM IF THEY AGREE WITH ME, then they are WRONG while the Talibans who raped and tortured their daughters and wives to death ARE RIGHT!

I care what the Afghani people think and if you would have bothered to read any news reports or the government statements or even my posts you would know that we are welcomed here, by the government and the people and this government election had no outside sources to oversee the election besides the UN, that was it.

You could also have read the human rights watch's reports but that is such a dirty right wing Hilter organisation that doesn't like the torture and rape by the Talibans, i mean sure, they might be a bit harsh by shoving a broken bottle up a twelve year old girls vagina but hey, they have the right idea...

You know absolutely nothing, you defend the most horrendous people while calling me Hitler for fighting them to protect innocent children and women.

You are a very very sick individual, i almost wish i believed in hell, just for you.

He can't know. VN era vets were baby killers too. Nothing changes.

Nevertheless, from an operational POV it is desirable to have a certain degree of freedom unhindered by borders. I think the days the Taliban retreating across the line to stick their tongues out with impunity are just about over.

What can you do with 62K troops? A hell of a lot with decent support and leadership.

What we need most of all is air support when we cross the border, it's sensitive and i get that, but without it we're sitting ducks, it's a wonder any of my platoon is even alive after going uphill.

But if we could use the ground forces, with air support... give me a month and the rest will be up to individual small teams smoking out the last.

It's a lot of troops, a lot more than us 16 that have been climbing these fucking rocks back and forth for the last month.

 

[Lemon law]

Here is where it all comes unraveled-----I advocate air strikes that ARE DIRECTED FROM THE GROUND AT SPECIFIC TROOP PLACEMENTS.

And then you do not read the news. Lets see, Krazai is now hopping mad at you Turkeys who did just that and oops--killed 41 people going to a wedding, 22 somewhere else, 15 Pakistani troops two weeks ago, 9 more yesterday, it all looks good on what you intended paper, but actual results matter.

And your actual results are cutting your own throats and air power is a very crude bludgeon indeed. For every bad guy you get, rule of thumb, figure one or two innocent civilians.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Here is where it all comes unraveled-----I advocate air strikes that ARE DIRECTED FROM THE GROUND AT SPECIFIC TROOP PLACEMENTS.

And then you do not read the news. Lets see, Krazai is now hopping mad at you Turkeys who did just that and oops--killed 41 people going to a wedding, 22 somewhere else, 15 Pakistani troops two weeks ago, 9 more yesterday, it all looks good on what you intended paper, but actual results matter.

And your actual results are cutting your own throats and air power is a very crude bludgeon indeed. For every bad guy you get, rule of thumb, figure one or two innocent civilians.

How the fuck you can get away with this kind of constant hypocrasy, misrepresentation and complete lies is beyond me.

I will not answer it, since it's a complete and utter lie, first line to last.