House passes bill to ban welfare in strip clubs, casinos, and liquor stores

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monovillage

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2008
8,444
1
0
It's not hard or expensive to enforce the law, just pull any of their gambling/liquor/business licenses and close them down if it's violated. You think this is the first time the government has pushed the cost of enforcing a law onto the business community? Who do you think checks IDs to see whose old enough for drinking/gambling/stripper gazing?
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
There has been plenty of evidence that it is a problem. there have been plenty of news pieces from several states showing millions of dollars per year being wasted.

Maybe so, but you haven't linked any...
 

pcgeek11

Lifer
Jun 12, 2005
21,512
4,607
136
The law disagrees with you.

Theft of less than $1,000 = petty theft - misdemeanor
Theft of more than $1,000 = grand theft - felony
(your state's specific laws may vary)

Every law is a cost/benefit analysis. It is unlikely that it is worth the effort to recover $.02. As the dollar amount increases, the viability of measures to restrict it increase. I would not be happy with any amount of my money being used at the strip club, but I certainly wouldn't be foolish enough to want to enact a law to recover two pennies.

Your reading sucks. Note the bolded in your statement. It is THEFT. Thanks for backing up my statement.
 

pcgeek11

Lifer
Jun 12, 2005
21,512
4,607
136
A bigger question is if they are so poor they need handouts from the working people why are they spending time and money in strip clubs, liquor stores etc... You would think they would worry about paying their bills and feeding their families etc... That is a bigger question.

If they have enough money to spend on these things vice take care of themselves they should be cut off completely.
 

Tab

Lifer
Sep 15, 2002
12,145
0
71
What's so bad about casinos and strip clubs? Guess what, I disagree that churches should receive taxes breaks of any kind because they're basically cults.
 

pcgeek11

Lifer
Jun 12, 2005
21,512
4,607
136
What's so bad about casinos and strip clubs? Guess what, I disagree that churches should receive taxes breaks of any kind because they're basically cults.

It isn't bad IF you are spending your own money. It is a IF you are using other peoples money.

Note: It has nothing to do with Religion.
 

trenchfoot

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
14,674
7,170
136
It doesnt matter. People will either flat out break the laws or find ways around them.

Yesterday saw a woman using her food stamp card (or whatever) to buy a bunch of garbage at 7-11. She used under-the-table cash from her job to buy cigarettes.
As if to drive home the point of how sad those people are, she didnt understand buying a 5-pack of Black N Milds was a better deal than buying 5 individual Black N Milds. The cashier had to explain it several times. She got tired trying to figure out the difference between 5.50 and 4.50 & just gave in.


Other regular thing is to sell your 100 dollars of food stamps for 90 bucks cash to someone else. Then buy all the cigs and beer you want.

Am thinking it would be better for the government to invest in MRE's and pass them out once a week.

Agreed with your sentiments, but the MRE's would be sold/traded just as any other thing of value that can then be converted to whatever the heart desires.

Like big businesses burying shady deals and criminal acts under layers and layers of obfuscating documentation and having their expensive lawyers exploiting grey areas and loopholes in laws/regs, the folks on welfare do the same thing on an infintismally smaller and simpler scale.

As usual though, it's so much easier and less expensive to pick on the poor that have no expensive lawyers and unlimited reserves of cash to fight and stall any laws or regs that get in their way.
 

Ausm

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
25,215
14
81
As it should be, implementation is left to the states which provide the benefits based on federal funding.

Simple solution would be to deny transactions from debit/whatever cards in those locations.

If it is everything is left to the States then why should they deserve Federal funding?
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
1,685
126
I think Peshak is right that this could be enforced by putting the responsibility on businesses and fining them for non-compliance. Most of these businesses (liquor stores, strip clubs, casinos) are already regulated.

I think you would just see people selling their cards for about fifty cents on the dollar, but the letter of the law would still be followed.

I'm more interested in why we are singling out strip clubs, casinos, and liquor stores. Others have mentioned this already, but do we want these support progams to only pay for necessities?

If we ban strip clubs, do we ban movie theatres as well?
If we ban movies, do we ban the purchase of books as well?
What about spending on education? That is not a necessity either.
What if they want to join a gym?

My personal opinion is that even at basic levels of government assistance, we should let people make choices. You want to buy Fruit Roll Ups instead of fruit? Ok. You want to spend money at the strip club instead of going to community college? Ok. As long as you are following the same laws everyone else is, and as long as the money we are giving them isn't enough to discourage them from working, I'm personally okay with that.

I understand others are not. If we decided as a society to only provide the necessities to those on Government Assistance, I think it should be administered in a completely different way. Basic government owned housing with food distribution centers in urban areas, social workers to provide some basic groceries and household items in more rural areas.

Again, I don't agree with that, but if we as a society decide that we only want to provide essentials, I feel like that would be the way to go about it.

Anyone feel like strip clubs, liquor stores etc. should be banned, but other forms of entertainment should be permitted? I can't follow the logic on that one.
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
82,854
17,365
136
Agreed with your sentiments, but the MRE's would be sold/traded just as any other thing of value that can then be converted to whatever the heart desires.

Like big businesses burying shady deals and criminal acts under layers and layers of obfuscating documentation and having their expensive lawyers exploiting grey areas and loopholes in laws/regs, the folks on welfare do the same thing on an infintismally smaller and simpler scale.

As usual though, it's so much easier and less expensive to pick on the poor that have no expensive lawyers and unlimited reserves of cash to fight and stall any laws or regs that get in their way.

Probably right.
I love MRE's and would have no ethical issues buying them for half the face value. They making camping easy and clean.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,038
36
86
Was just in a BP last night, waiting in line. Chick and her man were buying 3 bags of unhealthy chips, and some soda. Pulled out the link card, tried to use it a couple times through the reader, then got told the link wasn't working. They got pissed and left.

I said a prayer of thanks...

...then two of the three people that were left in front of me realized why those two left, they got pissed, left as well. None were holding anything to buy that should be paid for by links.

Moral of this: Large social welfare reform is needed, the system is clearly being abused. I'm thinking just have the state get a state generic label, called it TL for Taxpayer Leech, and that's what you can buy with your links card, along with only bulk beef or chicken, vegetables, and water.

$5000 fine per occurrance if business sells something using links that is not on the state approved list. It's the only way the business folks will take it seriously.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,038
36
86
A little excessive, don't you think? The point is to make it sting so - reasonably - badly that owners of these businesses will ensure policy is set, and followed, to follow the intent of the law.
 

PeshakJang

Platinum Member
Mar 17, 2010
2,276
0
0
If it is everything is left to the States then why should they deserve Federal funding?

You don't have to convince me. Reduce federal taxation and allow the states to compensate to create their own welfare programs. Save millions of dollars by avoiding the federal government, and keep the control and oversight where it belongs. As it is, the Feds provide no value added other than taking some off the top for the bureaucrats, and doling it out to who they see fit.

Glad we finally see eye to eye on something.
 

PeshakJang

Platinum Member
Mar 17, 2010
2,276
0
0
My personal opinion is that even at basic levels of government assistance, we should let people make choices. You want to buy Fruit Roll Ups instead of fruit? Ok. You want to spend money at the strip club instead of going to community college? Ok. As long as you are following the same laws everyone else is, and as long as the money we are giving them isn't enough to discourage them from working, I'm personally okay with that.
.

But that's one of the biggest problems with the welfare system as it is. We say that we need to give money to the poor to help them up. We give them money. Some of those people make poor choices with that money, and their situation remains the same. Then those same people that wanted to give them money in the first place turn around and say that they need more, or that there must be some other problem with society that is keeping them poor. Either way, the solution is always to throw more money at it, and as long as it is somebody else's money, there is never a shortage, and as long as the motivations are compassionate, opposing reason will be shouted down.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
I think all this talk of "fungible money" and "morality" misses the mark, completely.

We're told by Liberals that we need to make these type of welfare payments so the kids don't go hungry etc.

If we're providing money to meet certain basic needs it's obviously a good thing when you can ensure that the govt money actually goes for those things.

What they do with other money they have is irrelevant.

If we cannot make reasonably sure that the money we provide for certain needs is actually spent on those needs then we shouldn't bother providing it.

Fern
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
GOP is on top of the big non-issues facing this country.

Well, if providing money to poor people to meet their basic needs is a big priority for Liberals, ensuring the money actually goes towards those needs should be a priority as well. Or, are we just throwing money at a problem to assuage our guilt or 'buy' some satisfaction in thinking we're 'good people'?

Fern
 

Attic

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2010
4,282
2
76
Better answer is to make folks who use welfare provide receipts for how the money was used in order to continue getting benefits. They are getting the benefit, free money, they can do some work in order to continue getting benefits and the onus is on them to prove their merit. First violations result in suspension for 3 months, 2nd violation a year, third 5 years.

No excuses for why the individual can't get to a location or device to enter in the required information and no shift of responsibility away from the individual for the "individuals" sake.

Force the responsibility onto the individual using the welfare.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
What's so bad about casinos and strip clubs? Guess what, I disagree that churches should receive taxes breaks of any kind because they're basically cults.

I agree with that too. I don't believe they should get tax breaks and I don't think people who spend social support on hedonism deserve social support.

And I love hedonism.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,775
49,434
136
I think all this talk of "fungible money" and "morality" misses the mark, completely.

We're told by Liberals that we need to make these type of welfare payments so the kids don't go hungry etc.

If we're providing money to meet certain basic needs it's obviously a good thing when you can ensure that the govt money actually goes for those things.

What they do with other money they have is irrelevant.

If we cannot make reasonably sure that the money we provide for certain needs is actually spent on those needs then we shouldn't bother providing it.

Fern

I'm sorry Fern, ensuring how that money is spent is still largely irrelevant. The fungibility of money is not off the mark, it is the central reason why such a program is a waste of your hard earned taxpayer funds.

It might make you feel good that the govt. cash is being spent on food, but it will do very little to alter the outcome. I for one am not willing to pay for compliance costs on a program that serves no purpose other than to make me feel good.

I swear, if this kind of government effort was in any pursuit other than putting requirements on welfare recipients, conservatives on this board would be flipping out over the sheer waste of such a government program.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,775
49,434
136
Why is this money being provided? What is the purpose?

Fern

Say someone has $50 of their money and $50 of government money. They want to buy $50 worth of groceries and $50 worth of booze. Under the current system they could buy this by use of the $50 in government cash for booze, and then $50 of their own money for food. Under your new idea they would be forced to spend the $50 in government money on food, making them spend the $50 of their own money on booze.

Either way they end up with $50 of food and booze each. It might make you feel better that they spent the government cash one way, but the outcome is entirely the same. I'm unwilling to pay for enforcement of a law that doesn't do anything.
 

JockoJohnson

Golden Member
May 20, 2009
1,417
60
91
Just put the money on the card and in order to use the card, you have to show ID. *SHOCK* "But thens the po peoples won't be affording the ID?!?" --- unless welfare money has the same power as a vote according to the Constitution.

And if the excuse is that it is impossible to enforce, then why is so much effort going into anti-piracy? Anyone against this but for anti-piracy is a two-faced stooge and vice-versa.

Me personally, I could care less about enforcing it. People will always find a way around it, just like they do with copying movies/games/music, etc. Gov't isn't going to crumple because the poor are misappropriating their funds and Hollywood and the music industry aren't going to disappear if they stopped trying to copy-protect everything.
 
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