House votes to end federal estate taxes

[JulesMaximus]

When my grandmother died her estate went to my Mom and her sister. My Mom got about $400k but the government took about 1/2 of that. That is not fair at all.

Estate tax=:thumbsdown:

 

[nageov3t]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
When my grandmother died her estate went to my Mom and her sister. My Mom got about $400k but the government took about 1/2 of that. That is not fair at all.

Estate tax=:thumbsdown:

you sure that was estate taxes? I'm, like, 85% sure that the estate tax doesn't go into effect unless the estate is more than at least 1.5 million (unless she died before Regean revamped the estate tax laws).

 

[cquark]

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Because the person who DID earn it wanted to spend it on that person (the inheritee). Where do you come off with this "should be allowed" crap? Do other people's lives belong to YOU? Do other people have to justify how they use THEIR OWN PROPERTY to YOU?

Jason

You don't have to justify giving the estate to anyone.

You do have to justify not taxing one particular type of income, when all other types of income are taxed.

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
When my grandmother died her estate went to my Mom and her sister. My Mom got about $400k but the government took about 1/2 of that. That is not fair at all.

Estate tax=:thumbsdown:

When I got my bonus last year, the government got about 1/2 of that. That is just as fair as the estate tax. I don't see Republicans falling over themselves to make bonuses tax exempt.

 

[Darkhawk28]

Still haven't seen any difference between a gift tax and an estate tax as far as the type of income it is.

 

[AmbitV]

Originally posted by: redlotus

Originally posted by: AmbitV

Can you explain how an inheritance is income? The heir does no work, and makes no initial investment. Even a lottery winner makes an initial investment in the lottery ticket.

You say inheritances should be taxed "just like any other income", but the point is, inheritances are NOT like any other income.

I understand where you are coming from now. I don't agree with you, but I can at least now see your POV.

Inheritance is income because it is money that 'comes in' from somewhere else. The heir didn't own that money before the parent's death. Therefore, it is income-ing monies from the parent. I didn't realize that there was an investing or working requirement to define money as income.

What you describe should be more properly described not as "income" but as "cash flow".

But what is your justification for taxing this "cash flow" like any other "income"?

By "income" i mean salary, wages, dividends, interest. How is an inheritance like any of these sources of money? Do you have an argument for why an inheritance should be treated the same as these sources of income?

 

[nageov3t]

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: loki8481

Originally posted by: AmbitV
I am challenging those advocates of the estate tax to give a reason for the arbitrary 50% tax rate.

we've got to pay for society somehow. taxing an extremely small number of estates seems like a good enough way to do it.

it's no more morally just or wrong than income tax, sales tax, or property tax.

The sheer number of pork projects and social programs in this country are *absurd*. We don't need to spend 2 TRILLION dollars every single year.

Jason

I totally agree. if Congress somehow found the balls and integrity to stop passing pork bills, I'd jump out onto my balcony and shout "hallelujah."

but the fact is, they're not. and I haven't seen any anti-estate tax people come out with a clear solution on how we're going to pay for these tax cuts. that's my concern -- not "are these taxes moral or not," but how can the government cut taxes during war time and increase spending in the same breath without expecting to pay a cost somewhere along the line?

 

[cquark]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
When my grandmother died her estate went to my Mom and her sister. My Mom got about $400k but the government took about 1/2 of that. That is not fair at all.

Estate tax=:thumbsdown:

That must've happened quite a while ago, as the minimum estate that would be taxed before the repeal was $3.5 million; it was $1million before that, and the lowest limit I recall is the old $650,000 one, where you still wouldn't pay any for a $400K estate.

 

[AmbitV]

Originally posted by: cquark

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Because the person who DID earn it wanted to spend it on that person (the inheritee). Where do you come off with this "should be allowed" crap? Do other people's lives belong to YOU? Do other people have to justify how they use THEIR OWN PROPERTY to YOU?

Jason

You don't have to justify giving the estate to anyone.

You do have to justify not taxing one particular type of income, when all other types of income are taxed.

you have to justify how an inheritance is like any other type of income.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
When my grandmother died her estate went to my Mom and her sister. My Mom got about $400k but the government took about 1/2 of that. That is not fair at all.

Estate tax=:thumbsdown:

When I got my bonus last year, the government got about 1/2 of that. That is just as fair as the estate tax. I don't see Republicans falling over themselves to make bonuses tax exempt.

You get most of that back though when you do your taxes. Besides, a bonus is income.

A person's estate is what they acquired with after tax dollars. I think my Mother is more deserving of the money her parents worked hard to save and invest for her rather than the government.

I don't care what your argument is though. I'm against estate taxes and you aren't going to change my mind.

 

[AmbitV]

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
When my grandmother died her estate went to my Mom and her sister. My Mom got about $400k but the government took about 1/2 of that. That is not fair at all.

Estate tax=:thumbsdown:

When I got my bonus last year, the government got about 1/2 of that. That is just as fair as the estate tax. I don't see Republicans falling over themselves to make bonuses tax exempt.

So you're against a 50% tax on your own bonus, but when a wealthy person gets a bonus and is taxed 50% on that bonus, then passes on what's left of that bonus to his child and gets hit by another 50% estate tax, it's okay?

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: cquark

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
When my grandmother died her estate went to my Mom and her sister. My Mom got about $400k but the government took about 1/2 of that. That is not fair at all.

Estate tax=:thumbsdown:

That must've happened quite a while ago, as the minimum estate that would be taxed before the repeal was $3.5 million; it was $1million before that, and the lowest limit I recall is the old $650,000 one, where you still wouldn't pay any for a $400K estate.

Probably around 10 years ago or so. It was split between my Mom and her sister so the estate must have been around $800k...maybe more. I don't know the exact details though. I think some of it went to a church also. I don't think her parents knew the best way to protect that money so my Mom ended up dealing with it after the fact.

 

[AmbitV]

Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
Still haven't seen any difference between a gift tax and an estate tax as far as the type of income it is.

Why keep bringing this up? We've already conclusively shown that gift tax and estate tax is the same thing.

 

[cquark]

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: cquark

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
It is part of the American dream...some of these rich people you seem to despise busted their asses so that their children and grandchildren could stop to smell the flowers and enjoy life a bit.

No, the American dream was to be free of the power of inherited wealth and nobility.

Thomas Paine advocated for inheritance taxes. John Adams believed that when "economic power be came concentrated in a few hands, then political power flowed to those possessors and away from the citizens, ultimately resulting in an oligarchy or tyranny."

The American spirit hasn't been lost today, as Warren Buffet points out how inheritance undermines not only democracy, but competition and free enterprise: "Without the estate tax, you in effect will have an aristocracy of wealth, which means you pass down the ability to command the resources of the nation based on heredity rather than merit."

The "American Dream" is open to interpretation, for one thing, but probably the LARGEST motivator was to be free from oppressive government that tried to dictate to every man right down to his religious beliefs. The American Revolution was effectively set off by a tax increase of less than ONE percent.

Yes, and one of the biggest causes of said oppressive government was--you guessed it--inherited wealth and privilege. Thomas Paine, who is so often quoted by modern libetarians, was certainly no great fan of taxes and government, but he was also an intense critic of inherited wealth and privilege. Inherited wealth does have an impact, as the continued DuPont dominance of the state of Delaware shows, and the effects of that are hardly limited to that state due to corporate omnipresence allowing a large percentage of major corporations to chose Delaware's extremely corporate-biased law for their base.

 

[cquark]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: cquark

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
When my grandmother died her estate went to my Mom and her sister. My Mom got about $400k but the government took about 1/2 of that. That is not fair at all.

Estate tax=:thumbsdown:

That must've happened quite a while ago, as the minimum estate that would be taxed before the repeal was $3.5 million; it was $1million before that, and the lowest limit I recall is the old $650,000 one, where you still wouldn't pay any for a $400K estate.

Probably around 10 years ago or so. It was split between my Mom and her sister so the estate must have been around $800k...maybe more. I don't know the exact details though. I think some of it went to a church also. I don't think her parents knew the best way to protect that money so my Mom ended up dealing with it after the fact.

Ah, okay, so it was over the $650K limit set back then, but the estate tax still shouldn't have taken half the total as the estate tax would've only applied to the $150K or so above the limit.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: cquark

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: cquark

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
When my grandmother died her estate went to my Mom and her sister. My Mom got about $400k but the government took about 1/2 of that. That is not fair at all.

Estate tax=:thumbsdown:

That must've happened quite a while ago, as the minimum estate that would be taxed before the repeal was $3.5 million; it was $1million before that, and the lowest limit I recall is the old $650,000 one, where you still wouldn't pay any for a $400K estate.

Probably around 10 years ago or so. It was split between my Mom and her sister so the estate must have been around $800k...maybe more. I don't know the exact details though. I think some of it went to a church also. I don't think her parents knew the best way to protect that money so my Mom ended up dealing with it after the fact.

Ah, okay, so it was over the $650K limit set back then, but the estate tax still shouldn't have taken half the total as the estate tax would've only applied to the $150K or so above the limit.

Like I said, I don't know the exact details. That's just what I remember her saying.

 

[cquark]

Originally posted by: AmbitV

Originally posted by: cquark

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Because the person who DID earn it wanted to spend it on that person (the inheritee). Where do you come off with this "should be allowed" crap? Do other people's lives belong to YOU? Do other people have to justify how they use THEIR OWN PROPERTY to YOU?

Jason

You don't have to justify giving the estate to anyone.

You do have to justify not taxing one particular type of income, when all other types of income are taxed.

you have to justify how an inheritance is like any other type of income.

No, I don't. I don't care how like or unlike other types of income it is. My principle that income taxes should be flat. You can disagree with that and support a non-flat tax structure, but the principle is independent of how special everyone thinks their particular type of income is.

If you want to argue about this type of special income versus that type of special income, you need to find someone who's advocating something other than a flat tax.

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
When my grandmother died her estate went to my Mom and her sister. My Mom got about $400k but the government took about 1/2 of that. That is not fair at all.

Estate tax=:thumbsdown:

When I got my bonus last year, the government got about 1/2 of that. That is just as fair as the estate tax. I don't see Republicans falling over themselves to make bonuses tax exempt.

You get most of that back though when you do your taxes. Besides, a bonus is income.

A person's estate is what they acquired with after tax dollars. I think my Mother is more deserving of the money her parents worked hard to save and invest for her rather than the government.

I don't care what your argument is though. I'm against estate taxes and you aren't going to change my mind.

Estate that is given to you is still income. You didn't pay taxes on it, your parents did. If they gave that money to someone for goods and services, that person would have to pay taxes on it, and so should someone who is getting that money for doing nothing.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
When my grandmother died her estate went to my Mom and her sister. My Mom got about $400k but the government took about 1/2 of that. That is not fair at all.

Estate tax=:thumbsdown:

When I got my bonus last year, the government got about 1/2 of that. That is just as fair as the estate tax. I don't see Republicans falling over themselves to make bonuses tax exempt.

You get most of that back though when you do your taxes. Besides, a bonus is income.

A person's estate is what they acquired with after tax dollars. I think my Mother is more deserving of the money her parents worked hard to save and invest for her rather than the government.

I don't care what your argument is though. I'm against estate taxes and you aren't going to change my mind.

Estate that is given to you is still income. You didn't pay taxes on it, your parents did. If they gave that money to someone for goods and services, that person would have to pay taxes on it, and so should someone who is getting that money for doing nothing.

That's your opinion. Not mine. I don't agree with your opinion.

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: AmbitV

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
When my grandmother died her estate went to my Mom and her sister. My Mom got about $400k but the government took about 1/2 of that. That is not fair at all.

Estate tax=:thumbsdown:

When I got my bonus last year, the government got about 1/2 of that. That is just as fair as the estate tax. I don't see Republicans falling over themselves to make bonuses tax exempt.

So you're against a 50% tax on your own bonus,

Where did I say that? Oh wait, I didn't. Thanks for playing.

but when a wealthy person gets a bonus and is taxed 50% on that bonus, then passes on what's left of that bonus to his child and gets hit by another 50% estate tax, it's okay?

Yes, it is OK, just like me paying taxes on my bonus. Besides, the person does not get hit by 50% tax a second time. That person is dead. The person receiving the estate has to pay taxes on it, not the person giving it.

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
When my grandmother died her estate went to my Mom and her sister. My Mom got about $400k but the government took about 1/2 of that. That is not fair at all.

Estate tax=:thumbsdown:

When I got my bonus last year, the government got about 1/2 of that. That is just as fair as the estate tax. I don't see Republicans falling over themselves to make bonuses tax exempt.

You get most of that back though when you do your taxes. Besides, a bonus is income.

A person's estate is what they acquired with after tax dollars. I think my Mother is more deserving of the money her parents worked hard to save and invest for her rather than the government.

I don't care what your argument is though. I'm against estate taxes and you aren't going to change my mind.

Estate that is given to you is still income. You didn't pay taxes on it, your parents did. If they gave that money to someone for goods and services, that person would have to pay taxes on it, and so should someone who is getting that money for doing nothing.

That's your opinion. Not mine. I don't agree with your opinion.

Thanks, JulesObvious :roll: The only difference is that my opinion is valid. Your opinion is complete tripe rising from your sense of entitlement to receive income and not pay taxes on it like everyone else.

 

[AmbitV]

Originally posted by: cquark

Originally posted by: AmbitV

Originally posted by: cquark

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Because the person who DID earn it wanted to spend it on that person (the inheritee). Where do you come off with this "should be allowed" crap? Do other people's lives belong to YOU? Do other people have to justify how they use THEIR OWN PROPERTY to YOU?

Jason

You don't have to justify giving the estate to anyone.

You do have to justify not taxing one particular type of income, when all other types of income are taxed.

you have to justify how an inheritance is like any other type of income.

No, I don't. I don't care how like or unlike other types of income it is. My principle that income taxes should be flat. You can disagree with that and support a non-flat tax structure, but the principle is independent of how special everyone thinks their particular type of income is.

If you want to argue about this type of special income versus that type of special income, you need to find someone who's advocating something other than a flat tax.

So what's considered "income"? Whatever cquark says is "income"? Who determines what's income? If I open a lemonade stand and someone gives me a $100 bill, is my income $100? What if my costs are $50? Is my income $50 or $100? Are welfare payments considered "income"?

 

[cquark]

Originally posted by: AmbitV
So what's considered "income"? Whatever cquark says is "income"? Who determines what's income? If I open a lemonade stand and someone gives me a $100 bill, is my income $100? What if my costs are $50? Is my income $50 or $100? Are welfare payments considered "income"?

My whole point is that there is no special type of income that you need someone to declare it income or not. The definition of income is basic one of Money you get - Costs if any.

 

[AmbitV]

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: AmbitV

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
When my grandmother died her estate went to my Mom and her sister. My Mom got about $400k but the government took about 1/2 of that. That is not fair at all.

Estate tax=:thumbsdown:

When I got my bonus last year, the government got about 1/2 of that. That is just as fair as the estate tax. I don't see Republicans falling over themselves to make bonuses tax exempt.

So you're against a 50% tax on your own bonus,

Where did I say that? Oh wait, I didn't. Thanks for playing.

but when a wealthy person gets a bonus and is taxed 50% on that bonus, then passes on what's left of that bonus to his child and gets hit by another 50% estate tax, it's okay?

Yes, it is OK, just like me paying taxes on my bonus. Besides, the person does not get hit by 50% tax a second time. That person is dead. The person receiving the estate has to pay taxes on it, not the person giving it.

What if the person gifts it while he is still alive? You are aware that the donor, and not the donee, is responsible for the gift tax right? So that is an effective 50% a second time.

And besides, a bonus is nothing like an inheritance. A necessary prerequisite of getting a bonus is working for the employer. There are no prerequisites for an inheritance other than being born.

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: AmbitV

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: AmbitV

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
When my grandmother died her estate went to my Mom and her sister. My Mom got about $400k but the government took about 1/2 of that. That is not fair at all.

Estate tax=:thumbsdown:

When I got my bonus last year, the government got about 1/2 of that. That is just as fair as the estate tax. I don't see Republicans falling over themselves to make bonuses tax exempt.

So you're against a 50% tax on your own bonus,

Where did I say that? Oh wait, I didn't. Thanks for playing.

but when a wealthy person gets a bonus and is taxed 50% on that bonus, then passes on what's left of that bonus to his child and gets hit by another 50% estate tax, it's okay?

Yes, it is OK, just like me paying taxes on my bonus. Besides, the person does not get hit by 50% tax a second time. That person is dead. The person receiving the estate has to pay taxes on it, not the person giving it.

What if the person gifts it while he is still alive? You are aware that the donor, and not the donee, is responsible for the gift tax right? So that is an effective 50% a second time.

And besides, a bonus is nothing like an inheritance. A necessary prerequisite of getting a bonus is working for the employer. There are no prerequisites for an inheritance other than being born.

Where are you going with this?