House votes to end federal estate taxes

Page 11 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

bozack

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2000
7,913
12
81
Originally posted by: conjur
Everyone's gotta die sometime. The kids (well, in most cases they aren't "kids" but, rather, adults) didn't earn anything. It was the work of their parents. As I said above...give an exemption of, maybe, half a mil or so, after that, sayonara.


As for your 2nd point, it's to allow certain people to be able to afford food...not that 75' Viking yacht.

And if you were comming into a couple of million because some relative died I am CERTAN you and others here would be singing a very different tune....

What about for those who are dead broke yet work their asses off and have a rich relative who is leaving them everything..would people like you and Zebo still favor high estate taxes basically keeping this person in the hole or would you make an exception??

Personally I am all for having inheritances taxed to a degree, but the percentage should vary based on the amount...lower sums shouldn't be taxed at the near 50% mark as I believe they are now.
 

SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
2
0
Originally posted by: Orsorum
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Originally posted by: AmbitV
Originally posted by: redlotus
Originally posted by: AmbitV

What you describe should be more properly described not as "income" but as "cash flow".

But what is your justification for taxing this "cash flow" like any other "income"?

By "income" i mean salary, wages, dividends, interest. How is an inheritance like any of these sources of money? Do you have an argument for why an inheritance should be treated the same as these sources of income?

Seriously, you need to shoot your economics teacher/professor.

(From Merriam-Webster Online)
Main Entry: cash flow
Function: noun
1 : a measure of an organization's liquidity that usually consists of net income after taxes plus noncash charges (as depreciation) against income
2 : a flow of cash; especially : one that provides solvency

I can only assume that you are looking at this as if a family is considered one entity just like a corporation is. That would be an intracompany asset transfer. However, you can't just arbitrarily assign this corporate status to a family unit. Each person in that family is an individual that has to pay his or her own taxes. Your idea that inheritance is not income just doesn't hold any water.


Your problem is you automatically assume any cash flow should be treated as income subject to income taxes. That's obviously an overly simplistic view that holds no water. As already pointed out, what if I sell a widget for $100? My cash flow is $100, does that mean I pay tax on $100? No, because if my costs are $50, my income is only $50.

You still haven't given any argument for why an inheritance is income, other than just assuming it to justify your position in favor of estate taxes.

Could it be because it is income? What is the cost you incur getting an inheritance? If there is one, you should be able to subtract it from the inheritance before taxes. Noone is arguing with that.

Let's see, your parents DIE in the process of receiving an inheritance. How is that not a cost?

Oh, silly me. I forgot that dead parents are tax deductible. :roll:
 

imported_redlotus

Senior member
Mar 3, 2005
416
0
0
Originally posted by: AmbitV
Originally posted by: redlotus
Originally posted by: AmbitV

What you describe should be more properly described not as "income" but as "cash flow".

But what is your justification for taxing this "cash flow" like any other "income"?

By "income" i mean salary, wages, dividends, interest. How is an inheritance like any of these sources of money? Do you have an argument for why an inheritance should be treated the same as these sources of income?

Seriously, you need to shoot your economics teacher/professor.

(From Merriam-Webster Online)
Main Entry: cash flow
Function: noun
1 : a measure of an organization's liquidity that usually consists of net income after taxes plus noncash charges (as depreciation) against income
2 : a flow of cash; especially : one that provides solvency

I can only assume that you are looking at this as if a family is considered one entity just like a corporation is. That would be an intracompany asset transfer. However, you can't just arbitrarily assign this corporate status to a family unit. Each person in that family is an individual that has to pay his or her own taxes. Your idea that inheritance is not income just doesn't hold any water.


Your problem is you automatically assume any cash flow should be treated as income subject to income taxes. That's obviously an overly simplistic view that holds no water. As already pointed out, what if I sell a widget for $100? My cash flow is $100, does that mean I pay tax on $100? No, because if my costs are $50, my income is only $50.

You still haven't given any argument for why an inheritance is income, other than just assuming it to justify your position in favor of estate taxes.

And exactly why is it a problem if I feel that incoming 'cash flow' should be treated as taxable income? Because you disagree with it?

To answer your question, you are correct. Profit equals sales minus costs. This type of transaction is not in debate since I don't recall arguing that costs shouldn't be deductible.

And lastly, I have already explained to you why inheritance is income. Inheritance is assets that weren't previously under the ownership of the inheritor but now are. They have come in to the inheritor's possesion. Yes, it's simple, but since when has simplicity nullified a basis for argument?
 

Spencer278

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 2002
3,637
0
0
Originally posted by: bozack
Originally posted by: conjur
Everyone's gotta die sometime. The kids (well, in most cases they aren't "kids" but, rather, adults) didn't earn anything. It was the work of their parents. As I said above...give an exemption of, maybe, half a mil or so, after that, sayonara.


As for your 2nd point, it's to allow certain people to be able to afford food...not that 75' Viking yacht.

And if you were comming into a couple of million because some relative died I am CERTAN you and others here would be singing a very different tune....

What about for those who are dead broke yet work their asses off and have a rich relative who is leaving them everything..would people like you and Zebo still favor high estate taxes basically keeping this person in the hole or would you make an exception??

Personally I am all for having inheritances taxed to a degree, but the percentage should vary based on the amount...lower sums shouldn't be taxed at the near 50% mark as I believe they are now.

What about the person who comes into a couple million by inventing a new widget. Shouldn't that person be just as entiltled to keep all the money as the person who you described.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
Another wonderful gift FDR left us.

Only a democrat could come up an idea to tax you for dying.

 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: bozack
Originally posted by: conjur
Everyone's gotta die sometime. The kids (well, in most cases they aren't "kids" but, rather, adults) didn't earn anything. It was the work of their parents. As I said above...give an exemption of, maybe, half a mil or so, after that, sayonara.


As for your 2nd point, it's to allow certain people to be able to afford food...not that 75' Viking yacht.
And if you were comming into a couple of million because some relative died I am CERTAN you and others here would be singing a very different tune....

What about for those who are dead broke yet work their asses off and have a rich relative who is leaving them everything..would people like you and Zebo still favor high estate taxes basically keeping this person in the hole or would you make an exception??

Personally I am all for having inheritances taxed to a degree, but the percentage should vary based on the amount...lower sums shouldn't be taxed at the near 50% mark as I believe they are now.
Ah...bozack back to spread his bitter hatred across the P&N forum.

1) I am CERTAN (btw, it's spelled "CERTAIN") that I would give all of my money away to charity were I multi-millionaire (or more.) I'd be giving money to all kinds of research groups, schools, NGOs, etc. If I had kids that were not over the age of 18, I'd leave enough behind to cover a 4-year college degree and a bit more to allow them to live off of without having to work full-time while they went to school. That's about it.

2) You have purposefully ignored the exemption that comes along with the estate tax. For those who are "dead broke yet work their asses off", I'd think a nice half mil or is it ($1.5 mil) would be enough to allow them to, oh, say, buy a decent used car. What do you think? No? Hmm...maybe they need $5 million to be able to afford gas for that car.
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Originally posted by: AmbitV
Originally posted by: redlotus
Originally posted by: AmbitV

What you describe should be more properly described not as "income" but as "cash flow".

But what is your justification for taxing this "cash flow" like any other "income"?

By "income" i mean salary, wages, dividends, interest. How is an inheritance like any of these sources of money? Do you have an argument for why an inheritance should be treated the same as these sources of income?

Seriously, you need to shoot your economics teacher/professor.

(From Merriam-Webster Online)
Main Entry: cash flow
Function: noun
1 : a measure of an organization's liquidity that usually consists of net income after taxes plus noncash charges (as depreciation) against income
2 : a flow of cash; especially : one that provides solvency

I can only assume that you are looking at this as if a family is considered one entity just like a corporation is. That would be an intracompany asset transfer. However, you can't just arbitrarily assign this corporate status to a family unit. Each person in that family is an individual that has to pay his or her own taxes. Your idea that inheritance is not income just doesn't hold any water.


Your problem is you automatically assume any cash flow should be treated as income subject to income taxes. That's obviously an overly simplistic view that holds no water. As already pointed out, what if I sell a widget for $100? My cash flow is $100, does that mean I pay tax on $100? No, because if my costs are $50, my income is only $50.

You still haven't given any argument for why an inheritance is income, other than just assuming it to justify your position in favor of estate taxes.

Could it be because it is income? What is the cost you incur getting an inheritance? If there is one, you should be able to subtract it from the inheritance before taxes. Noone is arguing with that.

The money was already taxed as income already -- why should it be taxed twice?
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: bozack
Originally posted by: conjur
Everyone's gotta die sometime. The kids (well, in most cases they aren't "kids" but, rather, adults) didn't earn anything. It was the work of their parents. As I said above...give an exemption of, maybe, half a mil or so, after that, sayonara.


As for your 2nd point, it's to allow certain people to be able to afford food...not that 75' Viking yacht.
And if you were comming into a couple of million because some relative died I am CERTAN you and others here would be singing a very different tune....

What about for those who are dead broke yet work their asses off and have a rich relative who is leaving them everything..would people like you and Zebo still favor high estate taxes basically keeping this person in the hole or would you make an exception??

Personally I am all for having inheritances taxed to a degree, but the percentage should vary based on the amount...lower sums shouldn't be taxed at the near 50% mark as I believe they are now.
Ah...bozack back to spread his bitter hatred across the P&N forum.

1) I am CERTAN (btw, it's spelled "CERTAIN") that I would give all of my money away to charity were I multi-millionaire (or more.) I'd be giving money to all kinds of research groups, schools, NGOs, etc. If I had kids that were not over the age of 18, I'd leave enough behind to cover a 4-year college degree and a bit more to allow them to live off of without having to work full-time while they went to school. That's about it.

2) You have purposefully ignored the exemption that comes along with the estate tax. For those who are "dead broke yet work their asses off", I'd think a nice half mil or is it ($1.5 mil) would be enough to allow them to, oh, say, buy a decent used car. What do you think? No? Hmm...maybe they need $5 million to be able to afford gas for that car.

1. What are you doing charity wise now? Are you helping those in poverty?

2. Exemption that is woefully inadequate, but doesn't even address the REAL problem, which is that the money already had an income tax paid on it when it was earned, and a simple transfer due to DEATH should NOT mean it gets to be taxed again. That's just double-dipping. Plus, any of that money that is spent will be taxed from applicable sales taxes, and if it is assets -- if they are sold for a Profit it will be taxed with Capital Gains. Any money those assets make will be taxed as INCOME. It is just that most of you here don't actually understand the tax system, because you are too busy drinking kool-aid with Dave.

Your whole argument is that you don't like so-called "rich" people simply because they are "rich" and thus they deserved to be taxed out of spite. How -- umm -- tolerant of you.
 

SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
2
0
Originally posted by: Mill
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Originally posted by: AmbitV
Originally posted by: redlotus
Originally posted by: AmbitV

What you describe should be more properly described not as "income" but as "cash flow".

But what is your justification for taxing this "cash flow" like any other "income"?

By "income" i mean salary, wages, dividends, interest. How is an inheritance like any of these sources of money? Do you have an argument for why an inheritance should be treated the same as these sources of income?

Seriously, you need to shoot your economics teacher/professor.

(From Merriam-Webster Online)
Main Entry: cash flow
Function: noun
1 : a measure of an organization's liquidity that usually consists of net income after taxes plus noncash charges (as depreciation) against income
2 : a flow of cash; especially : one that provides solvency

I can only assume that you are looking at this as if a family is considered one entity just like a corporation is. That would be an intracompany asset transfer. However, you can't just arbitrarily assign this corporate status to a family unit. Each person in that family is an individual that has to pay his or her own taxes. Your idea that inheritance is not income just doesn't hold any water.


Your problem is you automatically assume any cash flow should be treated as income subject to income taxes. That's obviously an overly simplistic view that holds no water. As already pointed out, what if I sell a widget for $100? My cash flow is $100, does that mean I pay tax on $100? No, because if my costs are $50, my income is only $50.

You still haven't given any argument for why an inheritance is income, other than just assuming it to justify your position in favor of estate taxes.

Could it be because it is income? What is the cost you incur getting an inheritance? If there is one, you should be able to subtract it from the inheritance before taxes. Noone is arguing with that.

The money was already taxed as income already -- why should it be taxed twice?

Because the guy receiving it hasn't paid taxes on it.
My salary has been taxed, but if I pay someone to wash my car, they will have to pay taxes on it too.
Also, why do you assume the money has been taxed? The initial earnings have been taxed, but the capital gains have not been taxed.
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Originally posted by: Mill
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Originally posted by: AmbitV
Originally posted by: redlotus
Originally posted by: AmbitV

What you describe should be more properly described not as "income" but as "cash flow".

But what is your justification for taxing this "cash flow" like any other "income"?

By "income" i mean salary, wages, dividends, interest. How is an inheritance like any of these sources of money? Do you have an argument for why an inheritance should be treated the same as these sources of income?

Seriously, you need to shoot your economics teacher/professor.

(From Merriam-Webster Online)
Main Entry: cash flow
Function: noun
1 : a measure of an organization's liquidity that usually consists of net income after taxes plus noncash charges (as depreciation) against income
2 : a flow of cash; especially : one that provides solvency

I can only assume that you are looking at this as if a family is considered one entity just like a corporation is. That would be an intracompany asset transfer. However, you can't just arbitrarily assign this corporate status to a family unit. Each person in that family is an individual that has to pay his or her own taxes. Your idea that inheritance is not income just doesn't hold any water.


Your problem is you automatically assume any cash flow should be treated as income subject to income taxes. That's obviously an overly simplistic view that holds no water. As already pointed out, what if I sell a widget for $100? My cash flow is $100, does that mean I pay tax on $100? No, because if my costs are $50, my income is only $50.

You still haven't given any argument for why an inheritance is income, other than just assuming it to justify your position in favor of estate taxes.

Could it be because it is income? What is the cost you incur getting an inheritance? If there is one, you should be able to subtract it from the inheritance before taxes. Noone is arguing with that.

The money was already taxed as income already -- why should it be taxed twice?

Because the guy receiving it hasn't paid taxes on it.
My salary has been taxed, but if I pay someone to wash my car, they will have to pay taxes on it too.
Also, why do you assume the money has been taxed? The initial earnings have been taxed, but the capital gains have not been taxed.

1. The money was taxed before the guy received it -- income taxes WERE paid on it by the benefactor.
2. You are paying for a service in a job/customer situation, not as a transfer or assets from benefactor to heir.
3. That's if we are assuming there are assets that are subject to Capital Gains tax. There are exemptions up to a certain amount for profit on the sale of a home, and then when it comes to stocks and bonds, some bonds are tax free. You're right that if the objects aren't sold that Capital Gains taxes haven't been paid. I never argued that they shouldn't be once the heir decides to sell them.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: Mill
The money was already taxed as income already -- why should it be taxed twice?

We tax monies twice all the time, actually way more than that, why should inheritance be exempt from that?

I assume cap gains would also be exempt in you dream world because that money has also already been taxed too before vesting. What you are proposing is system is designed to keep people where they are. The poor can't afford to climb out, the middle and upper middle class (taxed heavily) make just enough to stay ahead of the creditors but cannot amass wealth, and the rich non wage earners are given a free ride on thier cap gains and inheritance. I mean some would say we already have a system of classes right now in this nation which is unfair and stats show it. Poor tend to stay poor. Rich tend to stay rich. Your plans would just perpetuate this. people could go generations paying nothing while recieving all the benefits of living in USA and what others tax dollars provide. How the hell is that fair?

Anyway I don't know how much is "fair" but it sure is'nt zero while most people have to actually work for thier money and get hit heavly by the tax man.

And yes Inheritance Income is income. Least the IRS calls it that. Even in finaical terms it's a sub-set of unearned income. All income is is a monitary gain there are literally 50 types of income all treated differently by IRS.
 

Orsorum

Lifer
Dec 26, 2001
27,631
5
81
Originally posted by: Zebo
And yes Inheritance Income is income. Least the IRS calls it that. Even in finaical terms it's a sub-set of unearned income. All income is is a monitary gain there are literally 50 types of income all treated differently by IRS.

Link

Now, the question includes the issue of what is value. AFAIK the IRS is referring to the FMV, not basis. In that case, then §102 explicitly excludes inheritance from the definition of gross income.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Your assertion that inheritances have already been taxed as income is patently false, Mill. I offered two common scenarios on page one which deny the point entirely. Add Real Estate appreciation to the list of assets never taxed under a no Estate Tax scenario... The emotional argument of losing a parent isn't exactly Kosher, either- we all lose our parents, unless we die first, yet most of us will end up paying for their funerals rather than whining about the govt taxing our unearned inheritances...

Nor do inheritors necessarily receive their bounty from people they actually loved, at all, or to whom they were related in any way. Sometimes families demand an open casket ceremony just to illustrate the fact that the rotten, greedy, selfish, manipulative, lying son-of-a-bitch is actually dead... I've been to a couple of those, and many of the heirs were no different, immediately contesting the Will, looting the Residence, cracking the safe at the office...

 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Your assertion that inheritances have already been taxed as income is patently false, Mill.

You say that yet that's just your opinion. It HAS been taxed before, period.

I offered two common scenarios on page one which deny the point entirely.


You did, and I'll quote that here:

Let's just tax it at the other end- as income for the recipients... fair market value assessments on inherited estate value over $XM, three years to pay... include large insurance policy payouts in the calculation, too- one of the wealthy's best tax dodges ever invented...

Sometimes estate taxes are the only taxes ever paid on monies recieved. If I bought Stock 20 years ago, and it followed the market average, it has 4X the value today. If I never sold it, I never paid taxes on the increase in valuation. When my heirs get it under the Repub scenario, they'll never pay any taxes on it, either... If my company buys a prepaid $50M insurance policy on my life, as a reward for my marvellous work, makes my children the beneficiaries, the company writes it off as an expense, and my heirs pay no taxes on it, ever...

First and foremost, life insurance is not a "tax-dodge" it is a hedge against loss of life/possible earnings especially if someone has term life instead of whole life. Many people get term life for say 20 years, so that if they are killed their family can still have the possible earnings they'd have made. Even with whole life you've PAID money that you were TAXED on, and the insurance company simply grows that money IN CASE you die under a circumstance in which you are rewarded. It is really no different than putting money aside for a 401k when it comes to whole life, and term life is significantly different. Either way, it IS taxed before you send that premium off.

Secondly, your stock argument shows a miserable understanding of things. Income != assets. When those assets are sold -- whether it be by the parent or the beneficiary -- it will be taxed at the normal Capital Gains rate. Just because it increase networth it is still simply paper money. What you are saying is that you have a problem with people's networth, you've gone out the arena of an income tax. Now you are wanting to tax money before there is even a profit or income!!! That's insane. That same money in the market could erode and only be worth X more or X less than when it was bought. Most people who owned stock in the past 50 years that left it to heirs held it in SINGLE companies -- i.e. my grandfather who had about 100 shares of AT&T when he worked for them years ago. He died in the 90's and his gain on that 100 shares was actually only a few hundred dollars. Sure, that is changing with the up and changing generation because they are less scared of the market and believe more in diversification -- as Enron and Worldcom told us was smart to do.


Add Real Estate appreciation to the list of assets never taxed under a no Estate Tax scenario...

Not really taxed now except for property taxes. As it stands there is a 250k exemption for single people and 500k for married individuals. Your "rich" people are already being taxed Capital Gains taxes if they go over that cap, although there was talk of increasing it because of the housing boom as of late, and how people in Cali are getting priced out and overtaxed. Anyway, I'm not sure how you figure it is "never" taxed, considering appreciation each year IS taxable by an increase in property taxes. Come on now! Do you even know what you are talking about? If your house goes up 20k in a year and increases your equity, you are going to have to pay property taxes. That is TAXED. You keep saying "that stuff isn't taxed" when it sure as hell is! Any gain you make increases your property taxes, and if you violate the cap you have capital gains taxes.


The emotional argument of losing a parent isn't exactly Kosher, either- we all lose our parents, unless we die first, yet most of us will end up paying for their funerals rather than whining about the govt taxing our unearned inheritances...

Most people don't lose their parent(s) at an early age. That parent would have been bringing in income to the family that would have gone toward housing, school, clothing, food, medicine, etc. You keep saying "unearned" how does growing up in a household in which your parents help out the kids any different than an inheritance? Do you want to tax that? I'm not talking about big gifts, but if you consider what parents pay for children from 1-18 years of age, it is several hundred thousand dollars, and sometimes more depending on schooling and/or location.Your argument is flawed, because you DO consider that form of giving to not be "income" but if it comes in one big chunk due to death it is "unearned" and I'm "whining." Well, I think you are a being quite silly consider the two are very similar. So, why shouldn't the government tax the transfer of income used on minor children? Obviously they should, right? If my father was still alive I've no doubt he would have been paying for my food, clothing, and housing from 8-18, and likely would have given me some money for college, but probably not paid for all of it.

Nor do inheritors necessarily receive their bounty from people they actually loved, at all, or to whom they were related in any way.

This is true, that does happen -- a lot of people(think Anna Nicole Smith) are truly in it for the money -- they never cared about the person. The difference is with someone like me. I'd live in poverty and give up every dime I've ever had in my life to be with my father for one more day. One more day is all I want.

Sometimes families demand an open casket ceremony just to illustrate the fact that the rotten, greedy, selfish, manipulative, lying son-of-a-bitch is actually dead... I've been to a couple of those, and many of the heirs were no different, immediately contesting the Will, looting the Residence, cracking the safe at the office...

Now you are making a strawman out of it. I did acknowledge that this happens, but it is certainly the exception, and not anywhere near being a majority of cases. Unfortunately never got to see my father again -- an open casket was nowhere near being impossible. The last thing I ever saw of his that he was wearing that day were two jet fuel stained shoes(reeked of jet fuel) and his wallet which somehow survived as well. I never got to tell him goodbye, or even see him sitting in a casket so I could do that. Can't really have an open casket when the plane was completely destroyed and the ensuing fire destroyed what was left. The fact that a body even remained is simply amazing. Call it whining all you want, but I think it is the same as if he were alive and planned to provide me assistance in life. Most parents in middle class America do this, so why the gripe toward me? The problem is that you and conjur are so intent on bashing "rich" people that you've unfortunately tarred many middle class Americans who are by no means rich, but received equitable compensation for their loved one's loss compared to their wages.

Under the current death tax system I wouldn't have been taxed to begin with -- so I'm not really arguing from a standpoint of financial benefit. I'm arguing logically that it is screwed up idea to tax estates like that -- the things were already taxed and it is already tragic enough without government meddling. I guess if the government gets to tax it, then I should bring suit against the FAA for not requiring Ground Avoidance radarin all crafts carrying a certain number of passengers. You know, what was recommended to them by the NTSB several YEARS before my father's plane crashed due to EXACTLY that -- not having that system. It is sad to think that the FAA thought it was unecessary or too expensive, but later after all the hearbreak and senseless loss of life they did in fact change the regulations. If he was flying today the plane he was on would have it.
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,834
1
0
Any idiot should know that when you get rid of a tax you will need something to replace it.

Read my lips, NO NEW TAXES!

:laugh:

 

HeaterCore

Senior member
Dec 22, 2004
442
0
0
There are a lot of repeated myths being bandied about here, many of which have been addressed already. A few corrections, no ideology about it:

1. For better or worse, the estate tax doesn't affect the middle class, or even the upper class, but only the upper-upper class. The tax affects only the wealthiest Americans -- as several people have noted, and several others have ignored, around 2 percent of all estates. Currently, a single person has to pass on an estate worth more than $1.5 million, and a couple $3 million, before the tax kicks in at all. This limit is already scheduled to double over the next few years.

2. In real terms the effective tax is a fraction of the 50 percent most people assume. Though the tax rate is damned high once your net worth tops the several-million-dollar qualifying limit, nobody actually pays anywhere near that amount. Thanks to generous loopholing and skilled accounting (I mean, c'mon -- these are rich folk we're talking about here!) the average estate tax bill works out to something like 17-18 percent.

3. Usually, most of the moolah isn't "taxed twice." The better part of most estates is taxable only under the capital gains tax, which doesn't kick in until something's sold (or in this case, until someone croaks). So, much of the wealth involved here has simply never been taxed at all.

4. Family farms aren't lost to the estate tax. The tax is structured with a ton of exemptions for farmers, including but not limited to a much higher valuation limit. The president and Ari Fleischer got caught, err, fibbing about this in 2001, when the IRS and the American Farm Bureau both confirmed that nobody had ever lost a farm to the tax. (Fleischer's response? "If you abolish the death tax, people won't have to hire all those planners to help them keep the land that's rightfully theirs." So his argument, I guess, was that we should eliminate the tax so that farmers won't have to fill out tax forms and hire accountants like the rest of us when we deal with large sums of money.)

Challenge the numbers/facts if you like.

Look, I could come around on eliminating the corporate tax, or maybe even imposing a a flat tax, so long as it's revenue-neutral and we don't keep trying our damndest to destroy our own economy and bring the rest of the world down with us. But friggin' outright lying to eliminate a particular tax really bothers me.

-HC-
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
Originally posted by: HeaterCore
There are a lot of repeated myths being bandied about here, many of which have been addressed already. A few corrections, no ideology about it:

1. For better or worse, the estate tax doesn't affect the middle class, or even the upper class, but only the upper-upper class. The tax affects only the wealthiest Americans -- as several people have noted, and several others have ignored, around 2 percent of all estates. Currently, a single person has to pass on an estate worth more than $1.5 million, and a couple $3 million, before the tax kicks in at all. This limit is already scheduled to double over the next few years.

2. In real terms the effective tax is a fraction of the 50 percent most people assume. Though the tax rate is damned high once your net worth tops the several-million-dollar qualifying limit, nobody actually pays anywhere near that amount. Thanks to generous loopholing and skilled accounting (I mean, c'mon -- these are rich folk we're talking about here!) the average estate tax bill works out to something like 17-18 percent.

3. Usually, most of the moolah isn't "taxed twice." The better part of most estates is taxable only under the capital gains tax, which doesn't kick in until something's sold (or in this case, until someone croaks). So, much of the wealth involved here has simply never been taxed at all.

4. Family farms aren't lost to the estate tax. The tax is structured with a ton of exemptions for farmers, including but not limited to a much higher valuation limit. The president and Ari Fleischer got caught, err, fibbing about this in 2001, when the IRS and the American Farm Bureau both confirmed that nobody had ever lost a farm to the tax. (Fleischer's response? "If you abolish the death tax, people won't have to hire all those planners to help them keep the land that's rightfully theirs." So his argument, I guess, was that we should eliminate the tax so that farmers won't have to fill out tax forms and hire accountants like the rest of us when we deal with large sums of money.)

Challenge the numbers/facts if you like.

Look, I could come around on eliminating the corporate tax, or maybe even imposing a a flat tax, so long as it's revenue-neutral and we don't keep trying our damndest to destroy our own economy and bring the rest of the world down with us. But friggin' outright lying to eliminate a particular tax really bothers me.

-HC-

I agree with much of what you say, but a few caveats:

1. Many middle class individuals(two income earners and strict savings and good investments) can easily have an estate over 1.5 million. I know you mentioned 3 million for couples, but that is assuming they are die at the same time. If not, one spouse can pass on to the other spouse, and then their estate can be > 1.5 million. Even though it is going to double, I don't believe in discriminating on that 2% of the country simply because "they can afford it." PAWs (Read the Millionaire Next Door) can easily amass fortunes that the death tax would apply to, yet they don't live a life anywhere near that of people who make HALF of what they make. Why is there a penalty for saving?

2.That's nice and all, but it ignores that people in those brackets do not get federal credits such as EITC or the other plethora of federal aid programs such as Pell Grants, loans etc. While they may used skilled accounting, that doesn't mean they are trying to scam out of their fair share.

3. We've gone over this time after time. Property is already taxed -- money used to purchase investments was already taxed in the form of income tax. And dividends, etc were already taxed.

4. I don't really recall anyone talking about that much, but there are MANY small business owners that have a large estate, yet relied on razor-thin profits to make a living. Saying that they are the wealthy elite does a disservice to them.
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Any idiot should know that when you get rid of a tax you will need something to replace it.

Read my lips, NO NEW TAXES!

:laugh:

Or you could reduce spending and balance the budget.
 

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
42,816
83
91
Originally posted by: Mill
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Any idiot should know that when you get rid of a tax you will need something to replace it.

Read my lips, NO NEW TAXES!

:laugh:

Or you could reduce spending and balance the budget.

congress reduce spending?

does... not... compute.

*head explodes*
 

HeaterCore

Senior member
Dec 22, 2004
442
0
0
Originally posted by: Mill

I agree with much of what you say, but a few caveats:

1. Many middle class individuals(two income earners and strict savings and good investments) can easily have an estate over 1.5 million. I know you mentioned 3 million for couples, but that is assuming they are die at the same time. If not, one spouse can pass on to the other spouse, and then their estate can be > 1.5 million. Even though it is going to double, I don't believe in discriminating on that 2% of the country simply because "they can afford it." PAWs (Read the Millionaire Next Door) can easily amass fortunes that the death tax would apply to, yet they don't live a life anywhere near that of people who make HALF of what they make. Why is there a penalty for saving?

True, some upper-middle class people save enough over the course of a lifetime to qualify for the tax. But that's really an argument at the margins; for the most part, the tax applies only to the wealthiest. (Again, for better or worse.) Plus, the cutoff is scheduled to increase to $3 million for a single person by 2009.

As for penalizing saving, I would agree if the tax applied to even a substantial minority of the population -- the vast, overwhelming majority of which still has an incentive to save because the tax will simply never apply to them. (Or, more properly, to their children.)

2.That's nice and all, but it ignores that people in those brackets do not get federal credits such as EITC or the other plethora of federal aid programs such as Pell Grants, loans etc. While they may used skilled accounting, that doesn't mean they are trying to scam out of their fair share.

Gah, bitten by my own rhetorical flourishes. I wasn't laying blame, merely pointing out that the actual effective estate tax is only a fraction of the putative tax. If there are exemptions or deductions to be had, by all means take them. God knows I do.

This is doubly true because one of the chief deductions is for charitable donations, which explains a lot of the huge posthumous grants to universities, museums, etc. Not going to criticize that.

||edit|| If you're going to cite the cutoffs for Pell grants and the like, you should include the opposite, and much more substantial, effect of levying payroll taxes on only the first $88,000 of income. Certain benefits/deductions/exemptions/etc. favor the wealthy, and some favor the middle class or the poor. (The structure of the income tax code itself is a whole different beast, of course.)

3. We've gone over this time after time. Property is already taxed -- money used to purchase investments was already taxed in the form of income tax. And dividends, etc were already taxed.

Perhaps I'm not as well versed in this as I might be, so I'll ask a question:

When I was a freshman in high school way back in 1992, I made about $8,000 by winning a writing competition and then selling the article. Both forms of income were taxed. I immediately invested the rest, something like six grand, in stocks -- a great move in 1992, right before the huge expansion of the 90s. By now, my portfolio sits at around $46,000. I haven't added any funds to it since the initial investment, so I've made something like $40,000 in capital gains by doing, essentially, nothing. (I know, I know, capital vs. labor.)

To my understanding, that $40,000 has never been taxed at all. Is that the case?

Hmmm. Maybe we could attempt to draw a line between earned and "unearned" income, however one might choose to define the line between the two. Probably impossible in practice, though.

4. I don't really recall anyone talking about that much, but there are MANY small business owners that have a large estate, yet relied on razor-thin profits to make a living. Saying that they are the wealthy elite does a disservice to them.

Aren't there already a boatload of exemptions for small business owners? If there were, and we could make them comprehensive, would you change your position?

-HC-

 

imported_tss4

Golden Member
Jun 30, 2004
1,607
0
0
Originally posted by: HeaterCore
When I was a freshman in high school way back in 1992, I made about $8,000 by winning a writing competition and then selling the article. Both forms of income were taxed. I immediately invested the rest, something like six grand, in stocks -- a great move in 1992, right before the huge expansion of the 90s. By now, my portfolio sits at around $46,000. I haven't added any funds to it since the initial investment, so I've made something like $40,000 in capital gains by doing, essentially, nothing. (I know, I know, capital vs. labor.)

To my understanding, that $40,000 has never been taxed at all. Is that the case?

It hasn't been taxed yet, but it will be when you exchange the investment for cash. At that point you'll have to decalre it as capitol gains on your tax return. The good news is that capitol gains is taxed at a lower rate than normal income (unless you made very little income). There are ways to rollover the $40,000 to avoid taxes longer, but the point is when you cash out the investment so that you can spend it, you will pay tax (unless tax laws change by then)
 

AmbitV

Golden Member
Oct 20, 1999
1,197
0
0
Originally posted by: HeaterCore
There are a lot of repeated myths being bandied about here, many of which have been addressed already. A few corrections, no ideology about it:

1. For better or worse, the estate tax doesn't affect the middle class, or even the upper class, but only the upper-upper class. The tax affects only the wealthiest Americans -- as several people have noted, and several others have ignored, around 2 percent of all estates. Currently, a single person has to pass on an estate worth more than $1.5 million, and a couple $3 million, before the tax kicks in at all. This limit is already scheduled to double over the next few years.

2. In real terms the effective tax is a fraction of the 50 percent most people assume. Though the tax rate is damned high once your net worth tops the several-million-dollar qualifying limit, nobody actually pays anywhere near that amount. Thanks to generous loopholing and skilled accounting (I mean, c'mon -- these are rich folk we're talking about here!) the average estate tax bill works out to something like 17-18 percent.

3. Usually, most of the moolah isn't "taxed twice." The better part of most estates is taxable only under the capital gains tax, which doesn't kick in until something's sold (or in this case, until someone croaks). So, much of the wealth involved here has simply never been taxed at all.

4. Family farms aren't lost to the estate tax. The tax is structured with a ton of exemptions for farmers, including but not limited to a much higher valuation limit. The president and Ari Fleischer got caught, err, fibbing about this in 2001, when the IRS and the American Farm Bureau both confirmed that nobody had ever lost a farm to the tax. (Fleischer's response? "If you abolish the death tax, people won't have to hire all those planners to help them keep the land that's rightfully theirs." So his argument, I guess, was that we should eliminate the tax so that farmers won't have to fill out tax forms and hire accountants like the rest of us when we deal with large sums of money.)

Challenge the numbers/facts if you like.

Look, I could come around on eliminating the corporate tax, or maybe even imposing a a flat tax, so long as it's revenue-neutral and we don't keep trying our damndest to destroy our own economy and bring the rest of the world down with us. But friggin' outright lying to eliminate a particular tax really bothers me.

-HC-


True, but nothing you've said justifies an estate tax. Facts are not the same thing as justifications. Only if you assume a wealth redistribution principle can you then conclude that an estate tax is justified.

In other words, you can agree that the estate tax affects only the very wealthiest and still be against the estate tax. Just stating that it affects the very wealthiest doesn't show anything. Different people in this thread have different reasons for advocating/opposoing the estate tax, but I for one never opposed it by claiming it affects people outside the upper class.

The question here is what, in principle, is the underlying justification for an estate tax. Many advocates of the estate tax here come to the argument with a background assumption of a wealth redistribution principle. They then point what you pointed out, that the estate tax affects only the very wealthiest, and thus the estate tax is justified. But why have a separate estate tax to redistribute income, when we already have a progressive income tax structure for this purpose? This argument in favor of the estate tax is akin to saying that the tax structure is not progressive enough.
When pressed on it, no advocate of the estate tax wants to admit this.
 

SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
2
0
Because income tax redistributes income, but not wealth. Estate tax redistributes wealth. That's a good thing, IMO.
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Because income tax redistributes income, but not wealth. Estate tax redistributes wealth. That's a good thing, IMO.

Yeah, because that worked so well in your home country! :roll:
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
True, some upper-middle class people save enough over the course of a lifetime to qualify for the tax. But that's really an argument at the margins; for the most part, the tax applies only to the wealthiest. (Again, for better or worse.) Plus, the cutoff is scheduled to increase to $3 million for a single person by 2009.

Well I disagree, but you as well as I know it is hard to find any numbers on how many people this actually applies to. That's really a side argument me to me though, because even if it wasn't having an effect on the middle class I'd still be against taxing due to death.

As for penalizing saving, I would agree if the tax applied to even a substantial minority of the population -- the vast, overwhelming majority of which still has an incentive to save because the tax will simply never apply to them. (Or, more properly, to their children.)

The "wealthy" tend to be the biggest investors in the stock markets and businesses, I think if you start double taxing them it is going to make them run toward safer tax free investments such as some bonds or real estate. I really don't think that taxing them on the gains, and then taxing their heirs is a plus to the economy or this country. Not only is it inequality, but I think it is bad economics.

Gah, bitten by my own rhetorical flourishes. I wasn't laying blame, merely pointing out that the actual effective estate tax is only a fraction of the putative tax. If there are exemptions or deductions to be had, by all means take them. God knows I do.

Fair enough.

This is doubly true because one of the chief deductions is for charitable donations, which explains a lot of the huge posthumous grants to universities, museums, etc. Not going to criticize that.

Well, I'll say that it is very hard to "save" money by donating to charities -- if people do it to help on their taxes they are bastards anyway.

||edit|| If you're going to cite the cutoffs for Pell grants and the like, you should include the opposite, and much more substantial, effect of levying payroll taxes on only the first $88,000 of income. Certain benefits/deductions/exemptions/etc. favor the wealthy, and some favor the middle class or the poor. (The structure of the income tax code itself is a whole different beast, of course.)

Yes, but lets be honest, most people making over 88k a year aren't going to be using Social Security to begin with, and given the chance to opt out they would. They are already talking aboue expanding the FICA cap to say 150k, but right now as it stands people making over 88k are still paying into a system that they won't use. I think that is different than them funding Pell Grants that they don't qualify for.

Perhaps I'm not as well versed in this as I might be, so I'll ask a question:

When I was a freshman in high school way back in 1992, I made about $8,000 by winning a writing competition and then selling the article. Both forms of income were taxed. I immediately invested the rest, something like six grand, in stocks -- a great move in 1992, right before the huge expansion of the 90s. By now, my portfolio sits at around $46,000. I haven't added any funds to it since the initial investment, so I've made something like $40,000 in capital gains by doing, essentially, nothing. (I know, I know, capital vs. labor.)

To my understanding, that $40,000 has never been taxed at all. Is that the case?

Not until you sell it. Right now that is just paper money, the market could crash tommorrow and it be worth essentially nothing. How can you tax something that fluctuates in value on a daily basis and is that volatile? The whole ideal is that you only have to pay a Capital Gains tax on a "gain."

Hmmm. Maybe we could attempt to draw a line between earned and "unearned" income, however one might choose to define the line between the two. Probably impossible in practice, though.

Well, people keep saying this but I don't see how it matters. If someone earns the income or not -- it is still their money whether it was left to them in the form of a family estate or if they dug ditches for 18 hours a day. Either way, it is still in their name and their property and once income has been taxed it shouldn't be taxed again. No one has yet to answer my scenario about why minor children don't have to pay taxes on the support their parents give them. I mean that's unearned income.

Aren't there already a boatload of exemptions for small business owners? If there were, and we could make them comprehensive, would you change your position?

-HC-

Yeah, there are some -- I'm not as familiar with that stuff so it is possible they have a very low tax burden, but knowing the government I doubt it. Even if we could make the exemptions comprehensive I still wouldn't be for an estate tax. Once income is taxed it shouldn't be able to have another income tax levied against that. It is not only double dipping, but patently inequal considering how it is applied.

HC, I enjoyed the dicussion, thanks for being a calm rational voice.



 
sale-70-410-exam    | Exam-200-125-pdf    | we-sale-70-410-exam    | hot-sale-70-410-exam    | Latest-exam-700-603-Dumps    | Dumps-98-363-exams-date    | Certs-200-125-date    | Dumps-300-075-exams-date    | hot-sale-book-C8010-726-book    | Hot-Sale-200-310-Exam    | Exam-Description-200-310-dumps?    | hot-sale-book-200-125-book    | Latest-Updated-300-209-Exam    | Dumps-210-260-exams-date    | Download-200-125-Exam-PDF    | Exam-Description-300-101-dumps    | Certs-300-101-date    | Hot-Sale-300-075-Exam    | Latest-exam-200-125-Dumps    | Exam-Description-200-125-dumps    | Latest-Updated-300-075-Exam    | hot-sale-book-210-260-book    | Dumps-200-901-exams-date    | Certs-200-901-date    | Latest-exam-1Z0-062-Dumps    | Hot-Sale-1Z0-062-Exam    | Certs-CSSLP-date    | 100%-Pass-70-383-Exams    | Latest-JN0-360-real-exam-questions    | 100%-Pass-4A0-100-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-300-135-exams-date    | Passed-200-105-Tech-Exams    | Latest-Updated-200-310-Exam    | Download-300-070-Exam-PDF    | Hot-Sale-JN0-360-Exam    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Exams    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-JN0-360-exams-date    | Exam-Description-1Z0-876-dumps    | Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps    | Dumps-HPE0-Y53-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-HPE0-Y53-Exam    | 100%-Pass-HPE0-Y53-Real-Exam-Questions    | Pass-4A0-100-Exam    | Latest-4A0-100-Questions    | Dumps-98-365-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-98-365-Exam    | 100%-Pass-VCS-254-Exams    | 2017-Latest-VCS-273-Exam    | Dumps-200-355-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-300-320-Exam    | Pass-300-101-Exam    | 100%-Pass-300-115-Exams    |
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    | http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    |