Housing 2008/2009 Thread

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LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
There are some bright spots in that data.

1. Charlotte and Dallas actually *APPRECIATED* this month, Charlotte at .2% and Dallas at 1.1%. That's pretty significant.

2. Out of the remaining 18 cities, only two showed an acceleration in the decline, Miami with a 3.5% drop and Tampa with a 2.7% drop, last-month drops were 2.4% and 2.5% respectively. All other cities showed a deceleration of depreciation and Denver was actually flat compared to last month. This is different from last month where 10 of the 20 cities showed a deceleration and none showed appreciation.

Part of this is the fact that we are entering a seasonally high area for prices and sales volume. How much seasonal affect there is is not clear, but it is there.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
There are some bright spots in that data.

1. Charlotte and Dallas actually *APPRECIATED* this month, Charlotte at .2% and Dallas at 1.1%. That's pretty significant.

2. Out of the remaining 18 cities, only two showed an acceleration in the decline, Miami with a 3.5% drop and Tampa with a 2.7% drop, last-month drops were 2.4% and 2.5% respectively. All other cities showed a deceleration of depreciation and Denver was actually flat compared to last month. This is different from last month where 10 of the 20 cities showed a deceleration and none showed appreciation.

Part of this is the fact that we are entering a seasonally high area for prices and sales volume. How much seasonal affect there is is not clear, but it is there.

You should get a job with National Association of Realtors
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: senseamp
You should get a job with National Association of Realtors

LOL, it was pretty strange reporting "good" news. I won't call a bottom to this since this could be nothing more than a seasonal support. You might even see some appreciation on a broader composite basis. However, it'll probably go back to depreciation this fall as the seasonal support drops again.
 

Slew Foot

Lifer
Sep 22, 2005
12,379
96
86
if a drop in the rate of decline in some markets is the "dead cat bounce", then things are going to get real ugly. Round about here things are starting to move slowly, but theyre already 50% off anyway.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
At least the current chairman of the federal reserve was right when, in 2005, he said there was no housing bubble.

oh, wait...
 
Oct 30, 2004
11,442
32
91

Since real estate prices--at least the value of land--is somewhat related to what people are willing to pay for it and thus relative to how much money people have, since just about everyone is getting a little poorer as a result of gasoline price-driven inflation, will the dollar prices for land decrease?
 

fleshconsumed

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2002
6,485
2,363
136
http://money.cnn.com/2008/06/0...postversion=2008060514



I'm surprised no one posted this yet. 1 million landmark of homes already in foreclosure, and 737K homes three months or more late on mortgage payment. Chances that those will recover are minimal so they will be added to statistics in the next 6 months. I really don't want to sound too doom and gloom, but after reading articles like this as well as seeing oil rise $12 in two days and analysts predicting $150 oil thus fueling speculation even more, seeing record level inflation, reading about Ford/GM/Airline industry massive layoffs as well as unemployment rate jump it's hard to remain optimistic that this is going to be a mild recession that's going to be over quickly. With all of the factors above pounding on people at the same time, chances are we'll be hurting for a long time to come.



Homes in foreclosure top 1 million

Mortgage bankers report hits grim a benchmark in first quarter, showing a record number of homes in jeopardy.


By Chris Isidore, CNNMoney.com senior writer
Last Updated: June 5, 2008: 2:09 PM EDT




NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- More than one million homes are now in foreclosure, the highest rate ever recorded, according to a trade group which warned Thursday that number will continue to climb.

The Mortgage Bankers Association's first quarter report showed that a record 2.5% of all loans being serviced by its members are now in foreclosure, which works out to about 1.1 million homes. That's up from the 2% of loans, or about 938,000 homes, that were in foreclosure at the end of 2007.

The report also showed that 448,000 homes, or about 1% of loans being serviced, began the foreclosure process during the first quarter. That's up from about 382,000 homes, or 0.83%, that entered foreclosure in the last three months of 2007.


The seasonally-adjusted rate of homeowners behind on their mortgage payments also hit a record high. Nearly 3 million home loans, or 6.4%, have missed at least one payment, while about 737,000 are at least three months past due, but not yet in foreclosure.

Grim numbers

"The figures aren't surprising, but they're pretty ugly nonetheless," said Michael Larson, real estate analyst with Weiss Research. "We're talking higher delinquencies and foreclosures pretty much across the board."

And he doubts that there's much reason to expect the foreclosure crisis to abate until next year at the earliest, adding that it could be a couple of years or more before foreclosure rates retreat to more normal historical averages.

"It's the same story we've been seeing for a while now - we had too much reckless lending, and buyers who got over-extended," he said. "We've had an unprecedented decline in home prices on a nationwide basis, which is public enemy number one for mortgage loans. And now you've got an overall economy that has slowed adding to this toxic stew."

Good credit, bad credit

Much of the problem lies with subprime loans given to borrowers with weaker credit records, especially those loans that had adjustable rates. Nearly four out of ten subprime ARM loans are a month or more late, or in foreclosure. And subprime ARMs account for 39% of the loans that fell into foreclosure during the quarter.

Prime fixed-rate loans, which are considered very low risk, have also seen sharp increases in their delinquency and foreclosure rates, although they are performing far better than the riskier loans on the market.

There are 431,000 prime loans in foreclosure, a seasonally adjusted rate of 1.2% that is more than double the 0.5% rate a year ago.

The report showed about 1.2 million prime mortgages are now a month or more past due, a seasonably adjusted rate of 3.7% of those loans. That's up from a rate of 2.6% a year ago.


According to Jay Brinkman, MBA's vice president for research and economics, the prime loan segment was hurt by so-called Alt-A loans, which didn't require income verification for buyers with good credit. Prime loans are also getting into trouble in places such as Florida and California, which have seen sharp home price declines.

"You still have people with prime fixed rate loans who lose their jobs, who get a divorce or have an illness come up, and can no longer afford a house," Brinkman said. "In areas where there's been home price appreciation, you can get out of that with the sale of a home or some other negotiation."

Getting worse before it gets better

This marks the sixth straight quarter in which a record percentage of loans went into foreclosure.

The trend has led to a widespread decline in home prices, as well as huge losses for banks and other financial firms that issued or invested in the loans.

Nearly half of the homes in foreclosure are concentrated in six states. But those states are undergoing two very different types of housing meltdowns.

California, Florida, Arizona and Nevada have been hit by a hangover after a home building boom in the middle of the decade, which was fueled by rising home prices and investors snatching up real estate using risky mortgages. Those four states have nearly 400,000 homes in foreclosure, or a third of the nationwide total. Roughly 3.6% of all of the loans in these states are now in foreclosure.

"Clearly things in California and Florida are going to get worse before they get better," said Brinkman.

The other two states that are ground zero for the crisis - Michigan and Ohio - have been hit by the more traditional economic woes stemming from rising job losses, particularly in the automotive sector.

Ohio has about 61,000 homes in foreclosure, while Michigan has about 54,000. The foreclosure rate in those two states is 3.9%.


There is a glimmer of good news. The rate of homes going into foreclosure in Ohio and Michigan was narrowly lower than it was in the fourth quarter, and 18 other states also saw a decline in that rate.

Brinkman said he hoped that means the crisis is at or near a bottom in much of the country, and that foreclosure prevention efforts have started to have an effect. But he added that a slight improvement in one quarter doesn't necessarily mean the end is near.

Indeed, the rate of homes going into foreclosure continued to climb sharply higher in California and Florida, as has the rate of loans in those states that are 90 days or more past due but not yet in foreclosure. Brinkman said that in markets like these, where home prices have fallen so far from the market's peak, finding solutions to keep a home out of foreclosure are more difficult.

He also added that, given the large impact California and Florida are having on the national foreclosure numbers, and the fact that historically foreclosures peak about three years into the loan's life, he expects the number of foreclosures will continue to rise.
 

fleshconsumed

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2002
6,485
2,363
136
Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Since real estate prices--at least the value of land--is somewhat related to what people are willing to pay for it and thus relative to how much money people have, since just about everyone is getting a little poorer as a result of gasoline price-driven inflation, will the dollar prices for land decrease?

There was an article on cnn that mentioned it briefly. It costs more or less the same to build a house give of a given size and features. You can save some by using cheaper labor or materials, whatnot, but fundamentals are the same. Land values on the other hand are variable and have been going down. The article gave an extreme example of some values (probably in CA or FL) going down from 150K to 50K. Of course that's probably cannot be considered typical, but land values will be going down as well.
 

Slew Foot

Lifer
Sep 22, 2005
12,379
96
86
I know housing is soooooo 2007 but it looks like prime borrowers are reaching the end of their means as well. I know some of you think that they have the means to weather out the storm so to speak, but it doesnt take a subprimer to borrow more than they can afford to pay back. When these loans begin to reset in 2009-2011 look for capitulation at the high end of the housing spectrum. Its a looooong way to the bottom.

http://www.housingwire.com/200...ts-to-prime-borrowers/
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
The longer range consequences from falling real estate prices have yet to be felt. The whole thing locks more people into their properties, and makes them less able to recover from other economic shocks. No low interest rising market refi-cashouts to pay the bills when there's no equity. Huh-uhh. People will have to build equity the hard way, the old fashioned way, by paying down their mortgage over decades, and that's a tough assignment when prices are falling faster than payoff is occurring...

I wouldn't touch real estate in one of the previously bubblicious markets with a pole of any length. foreclosures are ongoing, and inventories rising- meaning that prices will have to decline further before equilibrium is reached... In the event of a general economic downturn, which seems likely, that situation will only worsen, perhaps drastically...
 

Trianon

Golden Member
Jun 13, 2000
1,789
0
71
www.conkurent.com
just as I thought it's gonna be awhile... damn, 30% down is a lot, I think even my 2002 purchase may be in jeopardy of losing money.

Text

Home price drop means $4 trillion in lost capital

By Walden Siew1 hour, 49 minutes ago

No one knows when the credit crisis will end.

But when it does, U.S home prices may have lost a third of their value, high-yield bond valuations will hit levels close to those seen during the last recession, and what may amount to $1 trillion of Wall Street losses may translate into almost $4 trillion of lost access to capital.

That's the view of top credit analysts, who say a U.S. housing decline, sparked last year by subprime mortgage debt defaults, will likely last another two years as a wider group of consumers, including prime borrowers, feel the pinch from a tightening of credit.

Peter Acciavatti, a credit analyst and managing director at JP Morgan Securities Inc, said in an interview that Wall Street write-downs and losses totaling at least $325 billion so far may ultimately mean $3.9 trillion in tighter credit conditions.

Moreover, home prices may fall as much as 30 percent from their peak in 2006 and not hit bottom until 2010, with greater drops still in subprime mortgage debt markets, he told Reuters.

"The housing correction is in a down phase," Acciavatti said during a high-yield bond conference in New York. "We're now going through a phase of deleveraging and the pulling out of easy money."

Credit markets also will be under pressure from massive write-downs and losses stemming from consumer debt. The International Monetary Fund has estimated write-downs from global investment banks may approach $1 trillion, while J.P. Morgan forecasts the figure may climb as high as $600 billion.

A senior Fitch Ratings analyst forecast more defaults and delinquencies for U.S. home mortgages, and said the highest default rates are coming from recent mortgages originating in the last few years.

"There are a lot more mortgage defaults to come," said Glenn Costello, a Fitch Ratings managing director. "We see an ongoing high level of default."

High-yield corporate bond default rates may climb to 2.25 percent this year and jump to 6.5 percent next year, Acciavatti said in a separate interview. The default rate is now 0.75 percent, up from 0.34 percent at the start of the year, according to JP Morgan data.

Acciavatti, speaking at the New York Society of Security Analysts conference, also said junk bond spreads will push past 800 basis points and may top 900 basis points as the crisis drags out. High-yield bonds now trade at spreads of about 650 basis points over Treasuries, according to Merrill Lynch & Co data.

Tightening credit conditions, high energy prices and weaker growth prospects mean that interest in distressed debt sales and trading may be on the rise, according to Jon Kibbe, founding partner at law firm Richards Kibbe & Orbe LLP.

Other analysts pointed to opportunities in the loan market for high-yield investors looking for value in other markets.

(Reporting by Walden Siew; Editing by Jonathan Oatis)
 

Trianon

Golden Member
Jun 13, 2000
1,789
0
71
www.conkurent.com
More of the same, I am hoarding cash:

Text
Home prices extend record slide in April: S&P

43 minutes ago

U.S. home prices extended their record slide in April, with every top metropolitan area now posting annual losses and many showing double-digit declines, according to the Standard & Poor's/Case Shiller home price index report on Tuesday.

The S&P/Case Shiller composite index of 20 metro areas fell 1.4 percent in April from March and slumped by a record 15.3 percent over the year.

Economists expected prices for the 20-city index to fall 2.0 percent in the month and 15.9 percent from April 2007, according to the median forecast in a Reuters survey.

S&P said its composite index of 10 metro areas slid 1.6 percent in April for a record 16.3 percent annual drop.

Home prices in a dozen of the metro areas have fallen for eight straight months.

"If there is anywhere to look for possible improvement, it would be that the pace of monthly declines has slowed down for most of the markets," David Blitzer, chairman of the Index Committee at S&P, said in a statement.

(Reporting by Lynn Adler, Editing by Chizu Nomiyama)
 

mshan

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2004
7,868
0
71
Price Corrections Are Not As Bad As Reported


It is true that home prices have corrected more than any time in the past, and further price declines are likely. However, the methodology used to track home prices is overstating the actual correction. Some examples of reported overstatements thus far are a 36% decline in value in Sacramento, a 31% decline in Port St. Lucie, a 24% decline in Las Vegas, a 24% decline in Orange County, and a 20% decline in Tampa.

The problem is that there has been a tremendous shift in the activity of what is selling, which is impacting even the best price indices, such as Case-Shiller-Weiss. Here is what you need to know:

Small Sample Sizes: Home buying activity has plummeted, which has significantly reduced the sample size of what is selling. Our research shows that sales volumes have plummeted back to early 1990s levels in many areas of the country. A low sample size reduces the validity of the conclusions.

Dominance of Foreclosures: Today, the low sample size is dominated by foreclosures and short sales. In Sacramento last month, 65% of the sales volume was a foreclosure or short sale. Our research shows that foreclosure sales are heavily concentrated in certain submarkets, which is generally the poorer inner-city areas and the most outlying areas.

The Use of Median Prices: Median prices are the best measure to track because the median-priced home is the home where half of the homes sold are more expensive, and half are less expensive. In normal times, this home represents a 20-year-old, 1,600 square foot detached home in a typical suburb. Therefore, in normal times, comparing year-over-year price changes is relatively representative of most homes in the market. However, the median transaction today is more likely to be 1,400-square-foot, less desirable home in the inner city or a new home sold at auction.

Bigger Price Declines on Distressed Home Sales: The most sophisticated measures like Case-Shiller-Weiss only examine the price changes on the same home, so the mix shift is supposed to be eliminated. However, when more than 50% of the activity is a distressed sale, the median transaction is a home that was sold under duress and in a severely distressed neighborhood. This is not representative of the value of most homes in the metro area.

While the housing market and banking industry are under severe duress, it is important to know that most homeowners have not seen the decline in home value that is being reported in the newspaper. As always, we emphasize that the best decision makers use the most accurate information to make decisions.

http://realestateconsulting.co...tter=Local/local200806


 
Oct 30, 2004
11,442
32
91
Originally posted by: Slew Foot
I know housing is soooooo 2007 but it looks like prime borrowers are reaching the end of their means as well. I know some of you think that they have the means to weather out the storm so to speak, but it doesnt take a subprimer to borrow more than they can afford to pay back. When these loans begin to reset in 2009-2011 look for capitulation at the high end of the housing spectrum. Its a looooong way to the bottom.

Oh, all it takes is a job loss. If the newly unemployed person can't find a comparable job it's very easy to understand how he could end up in foreclosure after he's burned through his savings. He might even try to be responsible and sell his house but getting what seems like a reasonable amount or the amount he needs could be a problem. In this economy, finding a comparable job is not a guarantee, and it might not even be probable or possible for some people in many fields. It's also possible to end up suffering career-loss and value-of-college-education loss if you go unemployed or involuntarily-out-of-field underemployed for too long, and this market isn't real forgiving nor bristling with opportunities to climb back up.

 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
5
0
Daughter is looking into getting her first place at half off:thumbsup:

Last year the property was at $150K

Bank that has it is asking $70K.

Need appliances and new carpet/flooring. I will be on the hook for about $3-5K

And the previous people actually took the kitchen sink.:shocked:
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
If you have the cash there are lots of steals out there. I was looking at a 4100 sq foot home for 259,000 which went for 315 3 years ago and is on the books for 339.

I talked to a guy who goes around buying up forclosed properties. Told me about the early 1990s when he bought up sabout 100 homes in Cali from a bank that were going for 450K. He bought them for 67K a pop lol.

They are currently worth about 600-700K hehe.
 

Capt Caveman

Lifer
Jan 30, 2005
34,543
651
126
A real estate friend of mine emailed this sale that occurred recently a block from where I live. $100k over asking.

248 CHESTNUT STREET - Unit 248
Cambridge, MA 02139
Condo
MLS #: 70758548 Status: Sold
List Price: $950,000 Sale Price: $1,050,000
List Date: 5/9/2008 Sale Date: 6/23/2008
Area: Cambridgeport Off Market Date: 5/12/2008
Days on Market (Total): 3 Days on Market (Office): 3
Property Features
Rooms: 7 Style: Detached, Townhouse, Other (See Remarks)
Bedrooms: 3 Type: Condo
Full Bath: 2 Apprx Acres: 0.06
Half Bath: 1 Apprx Lot Size: 2825 sq.ft.
Master Bath: Yes Apprx Living Area: 2113 sq.ft. ($496.92/sq.ft.)
Fireplaces: 1 Garage: 1 Attached, Under, Garage Door Opener, Storage
Year Built: 2008 Parking: 1 Off-Street, Deeded
No. Units: 2 Unit Level 1 Placement: --
Association: Yes Fee: $9,999,999
Fee Includes: Master Insurance, Extra Storage


Room Descriptions Features & Other Information

Room Level Size Features
Living Room: 1 Fireplace, Hard Wood Floor
Dining Room: 1 Hard Wood Floor
Family Room: B Hard Wood Floor
Kitchen: 1 Hard Wood Floor, Balcony/Deck, Granite/Solid Counters
Master Bedroom: 2 Skylight, Cathedral Ceils, Ceiling Fans, Walk-in Closet, Hard Wood Floor
Bedroom 2: 2 Skylight, Cathedral Ceils, Hard Wood Floor
Bedroom 3: 2 --
Bath 1: 1 Half Bath
Bath 2: 2 Full Bath, Skylight, Cathedral Ceils, Linen Closet
Bath 3: 2 Full Bath, Linen Closet
Laundry: 1 --

Appliances: Range, Dishwasher, Disposal, Microwave, Refrigerator, Other (See Remarks)
Basement: Yes
Construction: Frame
Cooling: Central Air, 2 Units, Individual
Disclosures: 250 Chestnut UA,closing 5-30; 248 Chestnut ready mid-June
Electric: Circuit Breakers, 200 Amps
Exterior: Clapboard, Other (See Remarks)
Exterior Features: Deck, Enclosed Patio
Heating: Forced Air, Gas, Individual, Unit Control
Hot Water: Natural Gas, Tank
Interior Features: Cable Available
Lead Paint: None
Living Area Disclosures: 429 sf in lower level
Living Area Includes: Finished Basement
Pets Allowed: Yes
Sewer and Water: City/Town Water, City/Town Sewer
Waterfront: No --
Remarks Tax Information

One of 2, newly constructed SF/CO's by qual. builder. Big open fl plan w hi clngs, crown moldings, FP, CA, wd flrs. K with granite peninsula, cherry cabs, SS appliances and hood w ext. venting; deck access. 3 BR's w wd flrs; cath. clngs. Mr. bath w double vanity, oversized shower w multiple jets, skylight. Lower level only slightly below grade w 3 big windows in fam room; storage; att. gar. Fncd yd; sprnklr syst.; prof lndscaping. Walk to all T's, pks, tennis cts, amens., river.

Pin #:
Assessment: $9,999,999
Taxes: $999999 Tax Year: 2008
Book: 99999 Page: 9999
Cert:
Zoning Code: RES
Map: Block: Lot:
 

Trianon

Golden Member
Jun 13, 2000
1,789
0
71
www.conkurent.com
I am not gonna argue with Da Man!

Bloomberg

-- Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the two largest mortgage finance companies, ``don't have any net worth,'' billionaire investor Warren Buffett said.

``The game is over'' as independent companies said Buffett, the 77-year-old chairman of Berkshire Hathaway Inc., in an interview on CNBC today. ``They were able to borrow without any of the normal restraints. They had a blank check from the federal government.''
 

Trianon

Golden Member
Jun 13, 2000
1,789
0
71
www.conkurent.com
that, coupled with latest FM news - looks pretty bleak for people planning to buy or sell their home in next year.

Existing-homes sales rise, inventory swells

By Patrick Rucker1 hour, 43 minutes ago

Sales of previously owned U.S. homes ticked higher in July thanks to lower prices, but record inventory suggested the battered housing market is unlikely to recover soon, a trade group report showed on Monday.

Home resales rose 3.1 percent to a 5 million-unit annual rate, according to the National Association of Realtors. While that topped analysts' expectations of a pace of 4.90 million, the overall picture was mixed.

The median national home price declined 7.1 percent from a year ago to $212,400 and the inventory of homes for sale rose to 4.67 million which would take 11.2 months to clear at the current sales pace. That matched a record set in April.

The data points to a generally weak but stable market since the volume of sales has hovered around 5 million for 10 months despite gyrations in price and inventory, said Michael Englund, chief economist with Action Economics in Boulder, Colorado.

"Generally we have re-established the sideways pattern in existing home sales since October, which given the general down draft in a lot of housing data it is certainly good news that we seem to have some kind of floor," he said.

U.S. stocks initially pared losses after the data but the benchmark S&P 500 index was down almost 2 percent at mid-day on concerns about the health of financial industry. Yields on the benchmark 10-year Treasury were lower and the dollar was little changed.

Sales have rebounded in many markets in the West and Florida recently where prices have tumbled, but it is too soon to call a bottom for those regions, Realtors' chief economist Lawrence Yun said. "There is still too much uncertainty," he said.

Other analysts agreed that the July data was a relief after months of grim news for housing, which enjoyed five boom years before prices begin to slide in 2006. Compared to a year ago, the median existing home price was off 7.1 percent.

"Right now the sign is encouraging, not that it's over, but you're starting to see a bottom," said David Wyss, chief economist for Standard & Poor's in New York.

"Prices have come down more than we have expected, but sales and starts have actually held up better. That may be a sign of realism out there, that people have accepted the fact they can't get as much for the house as they thought they could."

(Reporting by Patrick Rucker; Editing by Tom Hals)

REUTERS
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
25,481
3,978
126
I've updated the OP for the latest numbers. I know I said this before (late 2006), but it does look like things have leveled off again. Exisiting home sales have been 5M+-3% for the last 11 months of data. New home sales have been flat for 5 months. New home starts have been flat for 8 months.

This doesn't mean that we are out of the woods. Things could fall again. But, it does appear to be at least some form of floor of support for housing. I do predict some more falls (especially on pricing). But I don't think most of the other numbers will go drastically futher down barring any major catastrophy. I think the true bottom is only about 10%-20% lower on the statistics that I post.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: dullard
I'm not going to put as much work into this any more.

I'll still update it monthly, around the end of the month/beginning of the next month.

Big news today so I'll post this:

9-24-2008 Price of existing homes sees record fall

Prices of existing homes in the United States suffered a record drop in August while the sales pace slowed and the overstock of homes shrank, the National Association of Realtors said on Wednesday.

The realty trade group said in a report that as many as

2 in 5 home sales are by borrowers who have seen their property lose value or are facing foreclosure.
 
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