How can ancient greek & spartans fight so well against all odds? 300 VS 2 MILLION!!!

[Pocatello]

Originally posted by: Diasper

Originally posted by: KingofCamelot

Originally posted by: necine
The pass at Thermopolea... This is historical fact. 300 spartans held of over a million Persians. Since childhood spartan men were trained for war... they lived in a militarized society and were amazing warriors. They held a pass between persia and greece... they held the pass for 3 days and it gave the greeks enough time to rally and army.

The numbers aren't historical fact. Historians believe more like 7,000 Spartans versus 200,000 Persians. One of those stories where everything gets bigger every time its told, eh?

Well more that Herodotus couldn't count. He guessed at his figures due to the number of ships it was thought Xerxes had and the numbers each ship could hold - however his numbers were off and his maths wrong.

I think 2 million is a little bit off. Even if Persia was a huge empire, with vast manpower at that time. I think there were indeed 300 Spartans plus thousands of other Greek soldiers, all of them were well armored with superior training and weapons. In the end, the Spartans made the ultimate sacrifice so that other Greeks could retreat and continue to fight on.

 

[OulOat]

Leonidas realized that further fighting would be futile. On August 11 he dismissed all but what remained of the 300 Spartans, who had already resigned themselves to fighting to the death. However, a contingent of about 600 Thespians, led by Demophilus, refused to leave with the other Greeks. Instead, they chose to stay in the suicidal effort to delay the advance. The significance of the Thespians' refusal should not be passed over. The Spartans, brave as their sacrifice indubitably was, were professional soldiers, trained from birth to be ready to give their lives in combat. Conversely, the Thespians were citizen-soldiers (Demophilus, for example, made his living as an architect) who elected to add whatever they could to the fight, rather than allow the Spartans to be annihilated alone. Though their bravery is often overlooked by history, it was most certainly not overlooked by the Spartans, who are said to have exchanged cloaks with the Thespians and promised to be allies for eternity.

Kick ass

 

[Kadarin]

Originally posted by: DaWhim

Originally posted by: csiro

Sounds more like a legend to me than actual truth.

you know why we have marathon in olympics??

Um, that was from a different battle, dude.

 

[wasserkool]

Were the greek/spartan armour good? From what i've seen, it onmy proviodes protection for the upper body while the leg is exposed?

 

[PingSpike]

I think its fairly obvious the numbers have been embellished through the course of time. I'm sure there was an impressive battle of persians versus outnumbered spartans...but I doubt the numbers were anywhere near as epic as is often claimed.

 

[PingSpike]

Originally posted by: wasserkool
Were the greek/spartan armour good? From what i've seen, it onmy proviodes protection for the upper body while the leg is exposed?

Greek armor has a different focus then say the full suits used by medieval knights. These troops weren't on horseback and probably had to march long distances...they also fought in large groups. A full suit that limits mobility and makes long marches nearly impossible would have been counter productive methinks.

Edit: Also, I don't think it would have been possible to build a full suit of armor that was light enough to move in during that period. It was the bronze age right? I could be wrong on that.

 

[Nitemare]

Originally posted by: hg321

Originally posted by: wasserkool
I did some reading on the Gates of Fire and found out that a few hundred spartans fought 2 million persians and delayed them long enough to rally the greek states.

Is it because the spartan and greeks have superior trainings over the persians as well as unity?

2 million??? wow those spartans kicked ass!!!!!

Sparta was no friggin joke. They were taught to fight and soldier from birth. I believe they controlled a group of people in their area that they were outnumbered 10/1, but because the Spartans were such badasses all these people submitted to their rule.

 

[Hammer]

i don't know that the 300 number is very accurate, I think we got the number because only Leonides personal guard fought from sparta. the rest of the spartans sat it out. the bulk of the army was made up of soldiers from other city state. i don't believe they held off 1 million persions, i agree with the guy that says 100k. someone of the reasons they were so successful have been mentioned, some have not:
1. superior training and armor
2. longer spears
3. the phalanx. if you understood how it worked, and how the entire unit throws its weight behind the first line, you'd understand why it was such an immovable line
4. the corpses did serve as a makeshift barricade
5. terrain / choke point. the best way to think of it is the persians were light infantry. their advantage was speed and mobility. the spartans were heavy infantry. the choke point denied the persians advantages, they couldn't outflank the spartans, and played to the spartans advantages
6. the persians were demoralized. xerxes made the mistake of sending in his Immortals (persian elite troops) in early and they were slaughtered. the rest of the persians lost the will to fight after seeing their best troops cut down.

 

[PingSpike]

Originally posted by: Nitemare

Originally posted by: hg321

Originally posted by: wasserkool
I did some reading on the Gates of Fire and found out that a few hundred spartans fought 2 million persians and delayed them long enough to rally the greek states.

Is it because the spartan and greeks have superior trainings over the persians as well as unity?

2 million??? wow those spartans kicked ass!!!!!

Sparta was no friggin joke. They were taught to fight and soldier from birth. I believe they controlled a group of people in their area that they were outnumbered 10/1, but because the Spartans were such badasses all these people submitted to their rule.

Yeah, spartans had a massive population of slaves that heavily outnumbered their citizens. There was a huge slave uprising early in their history that they barely managed to subdue, so their entire state focused on military excellence to keep the slaves in check.

Sparta was the badass arm and Athens was the intellectual arm.

 

[Leper Messiah]

Jeez. Don't mess with those theater people. They'll kick your arse.

People got to remember, that the vast majority of armies back in the day had no training or organization. thats why the phalnix and legions were so effective. Each person in the unit retains unity, covering the other's mistakes, so that less people die. They kinda had better weapons too.

IIRC, the spartans had bronze breastplates, helms, and then a thick leather kilt studded with bronze, and then some greaves.

 

[Calin]

The greek/spartan armor was (for that time) the best heavy armor in a frontal fight, as there were little exposed areas. It was bronze age, but it was bronze age for everyone.
About the size of the army, I don't think that was any kind of empire those days capable to support an invasion with one million troops (provide food for an army one million big in a land (Greece) that is both hot and dry? The logistics needed would be something for those days. That army would be double of what in Woodstock was.
There might have been a million people in war effort (but maybe a tenth part in the army in Greece, the rest would be transport, logistics, and what not). As Sun Tzu said in "The Art of War", you need 20 more food to feed an soldier in an invasion in a foreign country than you need to feed it at home.

 

[Diasper]

Originally posted by: PingSpike

Originally posted by: Nitemare

Originally posted by: hg321

Originally posted by: wasserkool
I did some reading on the Gates of Fire and found out that a few hundred spartans fought 2 million persians and delayed them long enough to rally the greek states.

Is it because the spartan and greeks have superior trainings over the persians as well as unity?

2 million??? wow those spartans kicked ass!!!!!

Sparta was no friggin joke. They were taught to fight and soldier from birth. I believe they controlled a group of people in their area that they were outnumbered 10/1, but because the Spartans were such badasses all these people submitted to their rule.

Yeah, spartans had a massive population of slaves that heavily outnumbered their citizens. There was a huge slave uprising early in their history that they barely managed to subdue, so their entire state focused on military excellence to keep the slaves in check.

Sparta was the badass arm and Athens was the intellectual arm.

Very true point about the slaves. Thats part of how the Spartans at least initially were portrayed as 'evil' in the Pelopenesian War thereafter.

Athens wasn't really intellectual, it was more a merchant and political city. The intellectual spur was actually in Ionia and spurred what because known as the Ionian Englightenment. Ionia was Greek but a territory between the Greek heartlands and Persia and was constantly swaying between their control. Lots of history but, Ionia was the area where Herodotus came from.

Also very good points about Spartan armour - fundamentally it was the best at the time and helped immensely with their terrain. Compared to that the best the Persian had to offer were the Immortals and while well trained and diciplined were still not much of a mach for the Spartans as the Spartans had better armour/weaponry and greater discpline. The rest of the Persian army would have been people they picked up - and most of them probably weren't that keen on coming in the first palce and were coerced. There's a famous quote in the book which showed how Xerxes could not understand the Greeks and how they didn't need to be coerced to fight etc.

Btw it wasn't the bronze age anymore - the bronze age was more at the time of Homer writing (ie Trojan War) which we are looking at at least 400 years previously. The Greeks were using iron by that point.

Also about Herodotus' account. He was writing well before his time (he ended up writing during the Pelopensian War between Athens and Sparta that ripped apart the Greek world) of about three generations previously and was using third person oral testimony to reconstruct his histories. Fundamentally, it wasn't reliable in the sense of modern fact or science - however the content of alot of what Herodotus has written has been proven correct in nature although not in particulars.

Any case still damn impressive even if it was only 5000 vs 50,000. Just remember the Persians still had plenty of archers.

 

[Mo0o]

Technically they didn't really win, they just killed a sh1tload of Persians before all dying. This is basically attributed to:
-Their training since birth to be a professional soldier. The weak ones were left out to die while the strong ones survived. They lived really basic lives that reflected the military lifestyle and a strong tolerance to hardship and pain
-The battlefield was a small pass that took away the advantage of large numbers, perhaps even making it a disadvantage due to crowding and crowd chaos (similar to battle of Agincourt)
-The Spartans were defending their homeland, which gave them more resolve than the Persians who had to be coerced by Xerxes to drag their asses all the way to Greece

 

[madworm]

Originally posted by: sciwizam
I believe we are talking about the Battle of Thermopylae.

yeah. it was mentioned in The Last Samurai...Tom cruise and the Samurai guy used that tactic...

 

[fatalbert]

as mentioned earlier the spartans didn't fight alone, about 5000 greeks held the pass at thermopylae for 3 days, then the greeks were betrayed and some persians were led by a secret pass. The phocians who were supposed to be guarding that pass were really stupid and let them by. (They retreated to defend themselves, but the persians ignored them and went to continue down the pass to the rear of the greek line.) The greeks caught word of this and then leonidas sent the rest of the greeks home. and kept the spartans there. and also the boeotians who lived in the immediate area. (they ended up surrendering). the spartans alone held the pass for only a few hours I believe. but it was enough time to allow the rest of the army to retreat to safety. also, the revised estimates that historians make is about 500,000 persian soldiers.

at the same time a naval battle was being fought at Artemisium. This battle ended in a draw. The persian navy was also made up of about 500,000 troops, and if the naval battle had failed, the persians could have landed behind the greeks and surrounded them.

The greek's land forces retreated to the Pelopponessus and were building a wall at the isthmus of Corinth to hold there. The Greek's naval forces retreated to the island of Salamus which was part of the same strategy of holding the penninsula. At that naval battle the greek forces triumphed, which caused the persian army to retreat for the winter. They holed up in Thebes. The athenian general Demosthenes (I think) sent an emmisary to Xerxes saying that they were planning on running that night, which caused the persian troops to stay awake all night on patrol while the greeks rested, in the morning the battle was fought in the narrow strait which allowed the greeks to basically turn the battle into a land battle, which they were able to win.

The next spring the combined forces of the athenians and spartans defeated the persian army at the battle of Platea. The persians also had the thebans on their side. that battle was basically lost by one of the persian generals Artabazus. the athenians were basically fighting the thebans into a stalemate. the spartans fought the persians, but they held up until they got a good omen from the sacrifices they were making, then they attacked and soundly defeated the left flank of the persian army. The center however retreated at the command of artabazus when he could have flanked the spartans and won the battle. after this the greeks were never again threatend seriously on greek soil by the persians


-I minored in classical civilizations and took a course on warfare in antiquity, I can draw a map sketch of this and a quite a few other battles. the pass at thermopylae was only about 20 yards wide in antiquity

 

[Mo0o]

Originally posted by: fatalbert
as mentioned earlier the spartans didn't fight alone, about 5000 greeks held the pass at thermopylae for 3 days, then the greeks were betrayed and some persians were led by a secret pass. The phocians who were supposed to be guarding that pass were really stupid and let them by. (They retreated to defend themselves, but the persians ignored them and went to continue down the pass to the rear of the greek line.) The greeks caught word of this and then leonidas sent the rest of the greeks home. and kept the spartans there. and also the boeotians who lived in the immediate area. (they ended up surrendering). the spartans alone held the pass for only a few hours I believe. but it was enough time to allow the rest of the army to retreat to safety. also, the revised estimates that historians make is about 500,000 persian soldiers.

at the same time a naval battle was being fought at Artemisium. This battle ended in a draw. The persian navy was also made up of about 500,000 troops, and if the naval battle had failed, the persians could have landed behind the greeks and surrounded them.

The greek's land forces retreated to the Pelopponessus and were building a wall at the isthmus of Corinth to hold there. The Greek's naval forces retreated to the island of Salamus which was part of the same strategy of holding the penninsula. At that naval battle the greek forces triumphed, which caused the persian army to retreat for the winter. They holed up in Thebes. The athenian general Demosthenes (I think) sent an emmisary to Xerxes saying that they were planning on running that night, which caused the persian troops to stay awake all night on patrol while the greeks rested, in the morning the battle was fought in the narrow strait which allowed the greeks to basically turn the battle into a land battle, which they were able to win.

The next spring the combined forces of the athenians and spartans defeated the persian army at the battle of Platea. The persians also had the thebans on their side. that battle was basically lost by one of the persian generals Artabazus. the athenians were basically fighting the thebans into a stalemate. the spartans fought the persians, but they held up until they got a good omen from the sacrifices they were making, then they attacked and soundly defeated the left flank of the persian army. The center however retreated at the command of artabazus when he could have flanked the spartans and won the battle. after this the greeks were never again threatend seriously on greek soil by the persians


-I minored in classical civilizations and took a course on warfare in antiquity, I can draw a map sketch of this and a quite a few other battles. the pass at thermopylae was only about 20 yards wide in antiquity

Wow awesome post. Sounds like an interesting course

 

[MisterCornell]

Most ancient history is bullcrap. Fact and fiction have been blurred over the ages, and there's so only so much archeologists can tell from bones and old rocks.

 

[Analog]

Originally posted by: SampSon
whities > brownies

Persians are true Arayans. Your analysis is incorrect.