How can anyone actually believe that life starts at any time other than the moment of conception?

[shimsham]

what about the rights of the father?

 

[kami333]

Originally posted by: Ryan

Originally posted by: kami333

Originally posted by: Mwilding

Originally posted by: Ryan

Originally posted by: Mwilding
Many people believe "having a soul" is what separates us from animals. With that in mind, human life doesn't begin until the soul is present.

But how do you make the determination? You can't. Just like you can't determine when a fetus is a person.

Therein lies the rub...

It all depends on what religion you believe in (or want to oppose).

And religion has no place in the political landscape or in law - so the issue of personhood arguments should not matter in the eyes of the law.

Therein lies the rub...

lol...

But you could argue it from a soul = self-awareness standpoint

 

[Accipiter22]

Originally posted by: George P Burdell

Originally posted by: Accipiter22
cunundrum that actually turned me pro-life:


Situation A: A lady is 6 months pregnant, gives birth prematurely, and the baby is in a neo-natal unit. Someone goes into the ward, kills the baby. What's he charged with?
Murder, WTF else? the child is already born!!!

Situation B: A lady is 6 months pregnant, and someone shoots her. She dies, and the baby dies. The shooter is ALWAYS charged with double homicide in those situations. Or say instead just the baby dies....the shooter is still charged with murder..
the thing about pro-choice is that the mother has the right to choose... a murderer pretty much takes that right away. the charges are drawn with the assumption that the mother was gonna deliver the baby

Situation C: A lady is 6 months pregnant, and decides she doesn't want a baby, so she has a doctor reach into her womb, tear the baby limb from limb and suck it out, or however the F they do it.
Before you form an opinion about something, it doesn't hurt to look it up. Google is your friend.

After I thought of it like that, I coudln't be pro-abortion any more. There's no difference in those 3 situations really.
Oh boy...

Given your... er.. unique sense of logic, here's another situation for you to consider:
A mother is in labor, but she develops complications. the doctors say they can save the mother if they disregard the child, and they can save the child but the mother will die. YOU are the father. What will you choose?

that's a situation I hope I'd never be in. I can't imagine ever loving someone enough to have a baby with them, and if I did, I can't imagine possibly saying 'yah let her die, i want the baby'. I'm actually surprised no one really flamed me over my post.


See the thing is, the only difference between the murder examples i gave, and abortion, is that someone's CHOOSING to end the life of their OWN baby, where as someone else is choosing to end it in the murder examples.


Be all end all of court cases, and I hope this never happens: A pregnant mother is shot or whatever by someone....the baby dies....the man is charged with murder, and then it comes out that the mother was on her way to have an abortion when she was shot. Or was at least considering it.

 

[Ryan]

Originally posted by: kami333

Originally posted by: Ryan

Originally posted by: kami333

Originally posted by: Mwilding

Originally posted by: Ryan

Originally posted by: Mwilding
Many people believe "having a soul" is what separates us from animals. With that in mind, human life doesn't begin until the soul is present.

But how do you make the determination? You can't. Just like you can't determine when a fetus is a person.

Therein lies the rub...

It all depends on what religion you believe in (or want to oppose).

And religion has no place in the political landscape or in law - so the issue of personhood arguments should not matter in the eyes of the law.

Therein lies the rub...

lol...

But you could argue it from a soul = self-awareness standpoint

Is a newborn infant self aware? Are the mentally handicapped self aware? Are people in vegetative states self aware? In many cases - they're not.

 

[yankeesfan]

Originally posted by: Ryan

Originally posted by: yankeesfan

Originally posted by: Ryan

Originally posted by: Mwilding

Originally posted by: Ryan

Originally posted by: Mwilding
Many people believe "having a soul" is what separates us from animals. With that in mind, human life doesn't begin until the soul is present.

But how do you make the determination? You can't. Just like you can't determine when a fetus is a person.

Therein lies the rub...

Which points out the fundamental flaw in personhood arguments yet again. The subjectivity of personhood arguments is a weaker issue than the rights of the mother.

If you can't determine when a fetus is a person, then why take the chance and potentially kill a person?

What about the right's of the mother? The fetus isn't the only life at stake here.

Mother's rights huh? Considering your opinion that life has no divine influence, and thus no definite purpose except to live and die, one should not interfere with a potentially new person's life so that he/she can live and have the same opportunities as his/her mother. A child, in my opinion, is naturally neither a burden nor a blessing to the parent. It is what it is interpreted as. These interpretations of issues and controversies should not be denied to a child.

Killing a child's future prevents it from having the same rights as oneself.

I don't know if any of that makes sense.

 

[yankeesfan]

Originally posted by: Ryan

Originally posted by: kami333

Originally posted by: Ryan

Originally posted by: kami333

Originally posted by: Mwilding

Originally posted by: Ryan

Originally posted by: Mwilding
Many people believe "having a soul" is what separates us from animals. With that in mind, human life doesn't begin until the soul is present.

But how do you make the determination? You can't. Just like you can't determine when a fetus is a person.

Therein lies the rub...

It all depends on what religion you believe in (or want to oppose).

And religion has no place in the political landscape or in law - so the issue of personhood arguments should not matter in the eyes of the law.

Therein lies the rub...

lol...

But you could argue it from a soul = self-awareness standpoint

Is a newborn infant self aware? Are the mentally handicapped self aware? Are people in vegetative states self aware? In many cases - they're not.

Self-awareness does not define humanity.

 

[Ryan]

Originally posted by: yankeesfan

Originally posted by: Ryan

Originally posted by: yankeesfan

Originally posted by: Ryan

Originally posted by: Mwilding

Originally posted by: Ryan

Originally posted by: Mwilding
Many people believe "having a soul" is what separates us from animals. With that in mind, human life doesn't begin until the soul is present.

But how do you make the determination? You can't. Just like you can't determine when a fetus is a person.

Therein lies the rub...

Which points out the fundamental flaw in personhood arguments yet again. The subjectivity of personhood arguments is a weaker issue than the rights of the mother.

If you can't determine when a fetus is a person, then why take the chance and potentially kill a person?

What about the right's of the mother? The fetus isn't the only life at stake here.

Mother's rights huh? Considering your opinion that life has no divine influence, and thus no definite purpose except to live and die, one should not interfere with a potentially new person's life so that he/she can live and have the same opportunities as his/her mother. A child, in my opinion, is naturally neither a burden nor a blessing to the parent. It is what it is interpreted as. These interpretations of issues and controversies should not be denied to a child.

Killing a child's future prevents it from having the same rights as oneself.

I don't know if any of that makes sense.

It does - it's the FLO arguement (Future Like Ours).

 

[Ryan]

Originally posted by: yankeesfan

Originally posted by: Ryan

Originally posted by: kami333

Originally posted by: Ryan

Originally posted by: kami333

Originally posted by: Mwilding

Originally posted by: Ryan

Originally posted by: Mwilding
Many people believe "having a soul" is what separates us from animals. With that in mind, human life doesn't begin until the soul is present.

But how do you make the determination? You can't. Just like you can't determine when a fetus is a person.

Therein lies the rub...

It all depends on what religion you believe in (or want to oppose).

And religion has no place in the political landscape or in law - so the issue of personhood arguments should not matter in the eyes of the law.

Therein lies the rub...

lol...

But you could argue it from a soul = self-awareness standpoint

Is a newborn infant self aware? Are the mentally handicapped self aware? Are people in vegetative states self aware? In many cases - they're not.

Self-awareness does not define humanity.

I never said it does - just pointing out the flaw when approaching the argument of abortion in a "soul = self-awareness" standpoint.

 

[Kelemvor]

Originally posted by: Ryan
There is a difference between life, and a person. Nobody disputes that life doesn't start at that point.

If you think it's wrong to kill life, I certainly hope you don't eat plants or roll over in bed for the fear that you'll kill the dust mites which inhabit it.

Pretty good summary. At the moment of conception it's just a cell. then 2, then 4 ,etc. No one cal tell at what stange the cells becaome sentient and an actual living being. But bacteria is alive, isnects are alive, etc. Just they aren't human...

 

[TheAdvocate]

Originally posted by: BigToque

The morning after pill is intended to prevent an egg from becomming fertilized.

-200 IQ

We are all dumber for having read that.

 

[Ilmater]

The reason murder is wrong is because you take away that person's right to make their own decisions. IMO, the only universal morality is that you should be able to do whatever you want to do so long as it doesn't hinder anyone else's ability to do the same.

So, until the cells get to the point that they're cognizant of their existence, then you're not really taking away anyone's right to make their own decisions because they're not advanced enough to make a decision or have feelings or have an opinion. (If a person is mentally handicapped and can never make their own decisions, it is assumed that they want to live and be happy, so we provide that for them. I only mention this because I know this question would come if I didn't.)



Oh, and to the OP, I hope you don't masturbate, because if you do, you're killing sperm, and they're alive in your sense of the word.

 

[Ilmater]

Originally posted by: BigToque

Originally posted by: Ryan
There is a difference between life, and a person.

You can't be serious... from the moment of conception to the moment of death there is one entity. Development does not change what something is. From conception to death a human being is always a hunan being.

Leave the Hunan out of this.

And just because you believe in a "soul" and give weight to that, doesn't mean I do.

 

[nakedfrog]

Originally posted by: Ryan

Originally posted by: Mwilding
Many people believe "having a soul" is what separates us from animals. With that in mind, human life doesn't begin until the soul is present.

But how do you make the determination? You can't. Just like you can't determine when a fetus is a person.

My opinion is that it's not a person until it's born.
And I believe that animals have souls as well. But they still taste delicious.

 

[kami333]

Originally posted by: Ryan

Originally posted by: kami333

Originally posted by: Ryan

Originally posted by: kami333

Originally posted by: Mwilding

Originally posted by: Ryan

Originally posted by: Mwilding
Many people believe "having a soul" is what separates us from animals. With that in mind, human life doesn't begin until the soul is present.

But how do you make the determination? You can't. Just like you can't determine when a fetus is a person.

Therein lies the rub...

It all depends on what religion you believe in (or want to oppose).

And religion has no place in the political landscape or in law - so the issue of personhood arguments should not matter in the eyes of the law.

Therein lies the rub...

lol...

But you could argue it from a soul = self-awareness standpoint

Is a newborn infant self aware? Are the mentally handicapped self aware? Are people in vegetative states self aware?

Who knows. It'll be interesting to revisit this debate a few decades/centuries later when we have a better understanding of human conciousness/self-awareness.

But as right now, vegetative states = reflex reactions only, so it's hard to argue that they are self aware. Infants = well their brain activity is normal (even if in developmental stages) so it's hard to argue that they are brain dead but self aware??? I'll leave that question up for those more qualified (yes, I'm running away, I know my limits).

 

[kami333]

Originally posted by: Ryan

Originally posted by: yankeesfan


Self-awareness does not define humanity.

I never said it does - just pointing out the flaw when approaching the argument of abortion in a "soul = self-awareness" standpoint.

But why shouldn't it? What seperates us from say a virus, other than that we are self-aware, aware of our existence, our surroundings, and the impacts we have on our surroundings?

 

[sourceninja]

There are billions of people on this planet. I dont think we will miss a few. I think human life is held in too high of a regard. We are no different then animals.

 

[Ryan]

Originally posted by: kami333

Originally posted by: Ryan

Originally posted by: yankeesfan


Self-awareness does not define humanity.

I never said it does - just pointing out the flaw when approaching the argument of abortion in a "soul = self-awareness" standpoint.

But why shouldn't it? What seperates us from say a virus, other than that we are self-aware, aware of our existence, our surroundings, and the impacts we have on our surroundings?

because self awareness isn't absolute, and determining when self awareness starts isn't possible.

 

[kami333]

Originally posted by: Ryan

Originally posted by: kami333

Originally posted by: Ryan

Originally posted by: yankeesfan


Self-awareness does not define humanity.

I never said it does - just pointing out the flaw when approaching the argument of abortion in a "soul = self-awareness" standpoint.

But why shouldn't it? What seperates us from say a virus, other than that we are self-aware, aware of our existence, our surroundings, and the impacts we have on our surroundings?

because self awareness isn't absolute, and determining when self awareness starts isn't possible.

Then when do you draw the line between humanity and a virus? Because when you come down to it, we are both organisms trying their damned hardest to survive and spread.

 

[Vinney]

Originally posted by: Accipiter22
cunundrum that actually turned me pro-life:

Situation B: A lady is 6 months pregnant, and someone shoots her. She dies, and the baby dies. The shooter is ALWAYS charged with double homicide in those situations. Or say instead just the baby dies....the shooter is still charged with murder..

Just as a legal matter, you're incorrect. Unborn victim laws vary state by state (and there is a federal law that applies to federal/military crimes) - not all states have unborn victim laws so you can't say ALWAYS for situation B. In fact I think it's a little over half of the states that have some type of unborn victim laws. The reason it varies so much state to state is exactly because of the abortion question.

 

[Chadder007]

Originally posted by: Crazyfool

Originally posted by: Ryan
There is a difference between life, and a person. Nobody disputes that life doesn't start at that point.

So aborting a "fetus" the day before it would've been born is not killing a person?

BTW, this thread really belongs in P&N.

Now thats where I have a big problem with Abortion.... Some people act like... "Stick the head back in and we can kill it"

 

[BurnItDwn]

Technically .... prior to conception ..... both components are organic and alive. so technically, while they may not each be their own complete organism, they are both "alive."

 

[BigToque]

Originally posted by: Ilmater

Originally posted by: BigToque

Originally posted by: Ryan
There is a difference between life, and a person.

You can't be serious... from the moment of conception to the moment of death there is one entity. Development does not change what something is. From conception to death a human being is always a hunan being.

Leave the Hunan out of this.

And just because you believe in a "soul" and give weight to that, doesn't mean I do.

I don't believe in souls. I don't know where you got that from... Oh right, because I feel that abortion is wrong you think I'm some religious nut. Your assumption was wrong.

I hold all life in high regard, be it humans, hunans, other animals or plants.

I understand that I need to eat to survive and have no problem with killing to survive. If I kill an animal to eat, I treat it with respect. Everything is used so the animal did not die in vain.

Having an abortion is incredibly selfish and is so disrespectful to life it's sickening.

 

[Kadarin]

I am pro-abortion, as I do not consider an embryo or fetus to be a "human being". As far as I'm concerned, the line should be drawn once the fetus has developed to the point of having consciousness. Even then, I believe that in the case where the developing baby is determined to be significantly defective, it is ok to abort.

 

[Ryan]

Originally posted by: BigToque

Originally posted by: Ilmater

Originally posted by: BigToque

Originally posted by: Ryan
There is a difference between life, and a person.

You can't be serious... from the moment of conception to the moment of death there is one entity. Development does not change what something is. From conception to death a human being is always a hunan being.

Leave the Hunan out of this.

And just because you believe in a "soul" and give weight to that, doesn't mean I do.

I don't believe in souls. I don't know where you got that from... Oh right, because I feel that abortion is wrong you think I'm some religious nut. Your assumption was wrong.

I hold all life in high regard, be it humans, hunans, other animals or plants.

I understand that I need to eat to survive and have no problem with killing to survive. If I kill an animal to eat, I treat it with respect. Everything is used so the animal did not die in vain.

Having an abortion is incredibly selfish and is so disrespectful to life it's sickening.

Does the life of the mother not matter?

 

[NissanGurl]

Originally posted by: kami333

But why shouldn't it? What seperates us from say a virus, other than that we are self-aware, aware of our existence, our surroundings, and the impacts we have on our surroundings?

On a totally not serious note: According to Agent Smith, humanity is a virus