How can I patent software ideas if I'm not a skilled programmer and therefore can't create a working model yet?

[CZroe]

Obviously, I can't go into details but these ideas are VERY plausible and any serious programmer could create them.
My programming skills are limited to Visual Basic and Basic (Though I'm a Visual C++ student now, this class will not ever get out of console applications).
My fears are that by the time I'm able to program anything with decent net-code, these applications will already exist.
Another fear, is that it will probably require a programming team anyway, and therefore would have to be patented already to start the project.
There are more, but here's the gist of the main ideas just to show the possible complication involved:
One commercial distributed computing idea.
Two totally different multi-source peer-to-peer applications (NOT filesharing!).
If Amazon or whoever it was can patent 1-click shopping and sell it to Apple, then these ideas are worth a fortune!
One more fear is that I may get conned by revealing too much about the ideas before they are patented.

Who do (CAN) I talk to? How can I find out if anything's been patented without spending a fortune on a patent lawer to look it up? Is there a way to hire someone (that wont con you) to look it up for low/no cost provided you pay them to patent it for you if it's not already?
I feel that getting this patented is the first thing to do before moving on. This way, if I run into road blocks or it turns out that I can't do anything else myself, I still can't loose

I know that I've posted a similar topic before, but it turned into a debate over patentable ideas rather than how to patent them...& my HUGE reply was somehow lost after I clicked post so I never bothered to revive it

Thnx ppl!

 

[Nothinman]

Submit an RFC for it to become an open standard, that way everyone can benefit, not just you.

 

[tsapiano]

Not sure if it will help, however this site is usually pretty good for looking up patent information. Hurry though, as they are stopping their free service on Thursday and going to a payed service. Also, not sure if you are in the US, however if you are the US Patent Office has a pretty good site too (with patent searches, information on how to apply, patent law references, etc.).

I primarilly use these sites to look up information on new products, or find out what companies are planning, but I've never utilized them to setup a patent or anything However, as good as the sites are, these documents are incredibly long and not particularly easy to interpret - so I couldn't imagine that anyone with the necessary skills would do that exhasting ammount of work without being payed anything (even when you know the manufacturer and the exact product, it is often hard to find the right patent - never mind trying to look without that information) If someone did offer such a service, then they'd have to charge considerably more for the filing of the patent (to subsidise all the time spent in failed searches for other people).

Not to make this into the other thread, however as I understand it you can't get a patent on an idea - you can only get a patent on an invention itself:

From the USPTO site:


<< A patent cannot be obtained upon a mere idea or suggestion. The patent is granted upon the new machine,manufacture, etc., as has been said, and not upon the idea or suggestion of the new machine. A complete description of the actual machine or other subject matter for which a patent is sought is required. >>



However I guess it may be different for software applications, but just wanted to make sure that you knew that there is a possibility you won't be able to patent it until there is a working prototype. Either way, I hope your idea pans out

 

[MustPost]

How about this one
I can't understand it, but it sounds really cool.

 

[CZroe]

A working version of the idea in software would require a copyright
With software, all you should have to do is to prove that it can be done; not actually do it.
Basically, I'm putting something that already exists and has been proven to work to another use (Sort of like Amazon put HTML and online shopping to another use, by removing pre-purchase safeguards).
Mine involves putting distributed computing to another use, and putting P2P file-sharing technology to another use than files altogether in two totally unrelated ways. Just because I don't have the programing skills myself doesn't mean I have to hire someone else to create it just so I could patent it does it? That would seem kinda weird to hire someone to make it for you when he knows you don't have it patented and all you're gonna do is patent it when he's finished so he doesn't get anything but whatever the contract states If he could do it himself, why would he need me and my contract? That's my true dillema. How to do it without getting conned and losing my ideas to someone else more capable of making good on them

 

[tsapiano]

I'm not a lawyer so I really can't answer that question, that's just the loose understanding that I have of patents. I'm pretty sure that you need to have a prototype for >physical< inventions, however I can see that there may be different rules for copyright/patenting software. Remember that patents weren't really intended to protect ideas, but rather actual inventions so I'm not even 100% sure you can patent software



<< That would seem kinda weird to hire someone to make it for you when he knows you don't have it patented and all you're gonna do is patent it when he's finished so he doesn't get anything but whatever the contract states If he could do it himself, why would he need me and my contract? That's my true dillema. >>



I would assume that you could likely formulate an non-disclosure agreement between yourself and the programmer prior to explaining the idea. That way, he wouldn't be able to utilize the idea, as you have him under contract not to use them himself or disseminate the ideas to anyone else. Additionally, if you are really worried, licenced engineers (at least here in Ontario) can have their licences revoked if they disclose trade secrets, NDA or not - while more expensive than technicians, hiring a group of computer engineers (or software engineers if your local engineering licencing body has gotten that far) should protect your IP. However, again I'm not a lawyer nor have I ever done anything like this so I really have no clue what one would do in that circumstance

Either way, this thread is kind of vearing into the direction of your previous one so I'll hold off on you here I would suggest that your best course of action would be to contact a lawyer and discuss what to do with him. You don't necessarilly have to go to an expensive patent lawyer to start with - ie figure out exactly what to do first, including weather getting a patent is the best course of action - if this idea is as valuable as you say it is, then it will well be worth the cost (lawyers are usually licenced as well, so you should be safe disclosing details). If you do progress to getting a patent, normal business legal council will likely be able to refer you to a reliable patent lawyer - and you'll likely need him for the general opperation of your business (employee contracts, incorperation, etc.). No venture is without risk, so unless you want to wait, protecting yourself is going to cost money

PS I have a 3rd year engineering law and ethics exam tomarow, which is where most of this is comming from But remember it is just a semester, so I'm not really >that< knowledgeable about the details

 

[bizmark]

I would agree with tsapiano that you should be able to negotiate a non-disclosure agreement into your contract with the programmer. I'd get a lawyer to look over it, but still I've heard of people doing all sorts of crazy things. Like the CEO of JetBlue, he had an airline previously, that was bought out by Southwest. When Southwest bought him out, Southwest made the JetBlue guy sign a 10-year non-competition agreement -- the guy couldn't have anything to do with any airline for the next 10 years! (obviously the 10 years ran out a while ago, hence JetBlue -- and it's taking the industry by storm) So since this kind of thing is possible, surely you'll be able to do something with a programmer. Again, just get a lawyer who specializes in contract law to look over it, because there are *some* things which you legally cannot agree to in a contract.

 

[RBS]

CZroe,
I currently hold two patents and have worked a bit with patent attorneys to obtain them.
You do not need to prove your ideal works with a hard prototype (in the case of hardware),
or real software code (in the case of software) to obtain a patent. For software you would need to
describe the functions performed and a functional flow diagram would help. If as you've described
your invention is based on the work an earlier invention, but is a modification that allows the earlier
invention to be used in a new and unique application you can still get a patent...just be sure to
reference the earlier work (lots of patents are extensions of or new inventions based on earlier patents).
The main key to patents is when the idea was developed, so if you have a good idea file as soon as
possible. There is even a way to prefile a synopsis, which gives you up to one year to submit the full
application and still maintain the application date of the synopsis (this is called a 'Provisional Patent
Application').


Good Luck... R.B.

 

[jeremy806]

The patent application must include a written description of the invention, must enable one of ordinary skill in the art to carry out the invention, and must describe the best mode (if any) for carrying out the invention.

As such, if a programmer of routine skill could implement your invention without undue experimentation, your inventoin may be patented (if new, useful and non-obvious) without any further development.

<--- not giving legal advice.

jeremy806

 

[CZroe]

AWESOME. Describes my ideas perfectly
Thnx guys...

Now, where can I find a patent lawer per say? Can't find any references that specific in the Atlanta phone book

 

[xaigi]

I hope that by "peer to peer applications, not filesharing", you dont mean tcpip over P2P, DNS over P2P or any other sort of basic networking over P2P. They are

1) Too obvious to be patented

2) Already in the works (as open source)

 

[bsobel]

One other note, the process is currently quite backlogged. If you filed today, you likely woudn't have a decision for 2 2/12 years.
Bill

 

[CZroe]

xaigi: No, of course not. The first one I'm talking about is a strict commercial use that would be commercial no matter who invented it and of absolutely no non-commercial interest. The other, would be EXTREMELY beneficial for consumer use, and would be free to anyone wanting to use it for such, but anyone wanting to offer commercial product over it would have to pay (Similar to MPEG4, the companies trying to sell streaming movies and such would have to buy a liscense for the software).