How can I Prove Evolution?

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p0ntif

Platinum Member
Feb 18, 2001
2,130
0
76
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Macro evolution happened, pOntif. That makes it a fact. None of your simple was and is and comples was and is amounts to anything, because when you go far back you find only simple, then you find a tiny bit of complex then you find a lot of complex. Were horses hiding a billion years ago? Not everything has to morph, only a tiny line of organisms branching and branching throughout time. We live on a microbes world. Once that was all there was. Why not just admit that life evolved. I'm saying the women had cancer. I'm not guessing how.


Why not just admit that life evolved.
perhaps you missed it in my first post when i said that this is indeed what I believe. However, proving it is something completely different. Moonbeam, we both agree that macro evoloution or something like it took place, however, what I am trying to point out here is that we cannot prove it as fact! And until we can, I will not recognize it as fact. Instead I will recognize it as what I believe.

I'm saying the women had cancer. I'm not guessing how.
Um, this is not true. If you say that we are human, then your above statement is correct. But you aren't. You are saying we are human because we evolved to be. YOU ARE SAYING HOW. While i believe that this is probably the correct answer, we cannot prove it! You may find it as self-evident as Christians find the existence of God. However, neither party can drum up undeniable proof one way or the other. You use a string of logic that follows as such: because we have unearthed fossils of simple organisms from the past, then most likely that is what existed. Because the most recent fossils are more complex, then it seems likely that the simpler organisms somehow morphed into the more complex ones over time. And since we exist, then it may be likely that these simple organisms that may have formed into these more comples organisms eventually formed into us.

Ok . . . now prove it. where is the hard evidence that makes this line of thinking undeniable? A big problem with macro evolution in comparison to micro evolution is how these genes supposedly mutate favorably. For instance, in bacteria or viruses, micro evolution is easy, a few snippets of dna changes and boom, drug-resistance. In higher organisms, this becomes much more difficult. What happens if a toxic gas flooded the entire earth. Would we adapt? No we'd all die. Why? because unlike the smaller organisms, our reproduction takes waaaaaaaay too long to allow for evolution like that. Punctuated equilibrium? Very unlikely. What, someone all of a sudden has a baby with gills that filter out toxins? Unfortunately, the more complex an organism is, the less likely it is to be able to alter its genetic structure into a new species, just be common sense alone, you can say that there are too many genes to organize together, and all mutations would have to be favorable somehow, and enough mutations to make a new species. While i believe in macro evolution, I can only say that it is the theory that makes the most sense to me . . . but this is based solely on my sensibilities, and my faith that somehow, this is possible. But in thinking about it, it seems very difficult for larger organisms to have so many concerted microevolutions as to allow for macro evolution. there simply is no proof, why can't you accept that moonbeam?
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
25,488
3,981
126
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
The flu virus is still a flu virus. It didn't grow a trunk and start eating peanuts. Yuk Yuk Yuk

Yes but it changed. Thus it evolved. What you are arguing against isn't evolution. I don't think there is a word for it, but you are admitting that evolution occurs, but not "major evolution". Evolution is change - any form of change - regardless of the outcome. If the outcome is different immunity then it evolved. If the outcome is a trunk then it evolved.

The fact is that species existed in the past that don't exist now. And species exist now that didn't in the past. Thus something changed. A change is called evolution. It doesn't matter if it was evolution like I described (which potentially could put a trunk on a human if the virus transferred all the trunk genes to the human) or if the evolution was forced by a supreme being. The fact remains that some things changed - thus they evolved.

There are two possibilities:
(a) Things have always been the way they are, and nothing has ever changed. Thus evolution doesn't occur. Or
(b) Things are different now then they were millions of years ago. Thus evolution occured.

It is your choice to believe in (a). I choose to go with religion that says God changed creatures and I go with the scientific evidence that creatures have changed (even if we don't know why they changed - or how) so I pick (b).
 

FrozenYak

Senior member
Oct 10, 2002
322
0
0
I havent put much thought into this next comment (so i dont even know if i believe it yet or not) but here it is
-could it be considered that only some things evolve?

and moonbeam
I think the main problem with things like 'horses hiding a billion years ago' is not that they were, its that if they evolved, and from what Ive seen most of you willing to admit that beings like humans evolve extremely slowly, then why havent a single skeleton of one of these beings been found? If we evolved we and animals didnt just change over night.

And by creationism horses wouldnt have been hiding a billion years ago as the world would only be a small fraction of a billion years old.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,300
6,356
126
Again pOntif, I told you that the hard evidence that evolution is hard wired into us. 1+1=2 Simple becomes comples equals evolution. You simply refuse to have faith in inescapable logic. I don't. I have faith that 1 + 1 = 2. I never stop to tell a tiger he may not exist. I don't pretend that evolution might not have happened because I didn't personally witness it. I trust that old rocks are full of simple things and that means there were only simple things to be in them. I trust that the fossil record becomes incressingly complex with time. I trust I know that means what it has to mean. That's how brains work. They accept the obvious. It's all the proof I need. And that kind of thinking has nothing whatsoever to do with religious faith. I trust that I can go to all the fossil sites and confirm for myself what is in the rocks and run all the date tests and get the same results. I don't need to read a single piece of paper. It's all in the rocks and completely testable. I don't have to take anybody's word for it. I have no stake it whether or not it is true. It's like jumping off one rock to another. Nobody calls your chances a matter of faith. It is what would be concluded over and over again by a curious species that continually forgot everything it learned. It is what people who came in a space ship and looked would think. It's what intelligent rats will one day think. All that because it's true. There are a million religions, and only one scientifically obvious fact.
 
Aug 16, 2001
22,505
4
81
Originally posted by: Tominator
Originally posted by: FrustratedUser
A new thread about Creationism is started.

I call all Creationists to present evidence.


But all your so-called evidence leads to a dead end where even scientist cannot agree.

I call all evolutionist to face the facts! There are none!

Hmmm, do I get this right?

Evolutionists have to prove their theory.
Creationistst just say God created everything and that's it. No discussion.


Ohh, come on! give me a break!
 

petrek

Senior member
Apr 11, 2001
953
0
0
some of the people who keep quoting scripture as if it was an argument, or in some way contributed to this discussion.

I think it's logical to quote from the book that is responsible for the thread in the first place. After all, if it weren't for what the Scriptures said on the topic of Creation we wouldn't be having this discussion, or the ones in the future .

Had God have wanted to prove his existance with the Creation account, he would have devoted more than just the first two chapters of the first book (as well as a few other places) to the subject. He would have used words and discoveries that would not be coined or made for a few thousand years, making for a lengthy and confusing book.

Rather he choose to use the Jewish people as his witness that He is God, ?Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. I have declared, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.? Isaish 43:10-12 The Bible being a historical account of the Jewish people from the beginning to end, I felt it relevant to include that piece of information in this discussion.

I have yet to meet a Christian who became one because of the account of Creation contained in the Bible, I have however met numerous people who believe the Bible can't be true because it disagrees with the story of evolution they were taught as fact in school. This is why it is important to point out the misconceptions, and in some cases outright lies associated with the teaching of evolution.

D
 

Athlon4all

Diamond Member
Jun 18, 2001
5,416
0
76
Creationistst just say God created everything and that's it. No discussion.
Thats right. I am not going to argue myu point, because this isn't a battle between which is logical, this is a battle between God and Satan, and we whio know that The Bible is true, are simply messengers. See, we can "debate" all the "scientific" evidence there is, but each of uis will interpreate it according to the bias. Its only a matter of which bias it is for, so I just state the foundation that my bias stands on, the perfect, infallible Words of God, given to us in the Bible.
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,795
84
91
bias lol, u mean end of thought.

some people's bias's ignore all geological evidence because they interpret their "infalliable" dogma a certain way. thats not bias, thats blindness.
 

bGIveNs33

Golden Member
Jul 10, 2002
1,543
0
71
Do any of you creationist leave room for theistic evolution?? Do you really think that everything in the Bible was meant to be taken literally? Jesus told stories all the time, "Good Samaritan", "Prodigal Son" ect. those never happened! I repect you'll(i'm from the south) for standing up for what you believe in, but don't close your mind to other possibilities. The moment you stop trying to learn and ponder, you become ignorant.
 
Aug 16, 2001
22,505
4
81
Originally posted by: Athlon4all
Creationistst just say God created everything and that's it. No discussion.
Thats right. I am not going to argue myu point, because this isn't a battle between which is logical, this is a battle between God and Satan, and we whio know that The Bible is true, are simply messengers. See, we can "debate" all the "scientific" evidence there is, but each of uis will interpreate it according to the bias. Its only a matter of which bias it is for, so I just state the foundation that my bias stands on, the perfect, infallible Words of God, given to us in the Bible.


 

Stealth1024

Platinum Member
Aug 9, 2000
2,266
0
0
You can't prove evolution because it doesn't exist. We were created and were not the subject of some random evolutionary process.
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,795
84
91
Originally posted by: Stealth1024
You can't prove evolution because it doesn't exist. We were created and were not the subject of some random evolutionary process.



and how do you prove we were created and no the subject of some "random"(which it does not have to be for more then one reason ie directed/chemical reactions are not random, the follow rules) evolutionary process.

 

FrozenYak

Senior member
Oct 10, 2002
322
0
0
Originally posted by: FrustratedUser
Originally posted by: Tominator
Originally posted by: FrustratedUser
A new thread about Creationism is started.

I call all Creationists to present evidence.


But all your so-called evidence leads to a dead end where even scientist cannot agree.

I call all evolutionist to face the facts! There are none!

Hmmm, do I get this right?

Evolutionists have to prove their theory.
Creationistst just say God created everything and that's it. No discussion.


Ohh, come on! give me a break!

The only reason you say that is because youve never met all the creationists. There are entire books written by creationists that prove what the bible says to be true while disproving evolutionism.
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,795
84
91
Originally posted by: FrozenYak
Originally posted by: FrustratedUser
Originally posted by: Tominator
Originally posted by: FrustratedUser
A new thread about Creationism is started.

I call all Creationists to present evidence.


But all your so-called evidence leads to a dead end where even scientist cannot agree.

I call all evolutionist to face the facts! There are none!

Hmmm, do I get this right?

Evolutionists have to prove their theory.
Creationistst just say God created everything and that's it. No discussion.


Ohh, come on! give me a break!

The only reason you say that is because youve never met all the creationists. There are entire books written by creationists that prove what the bible says to be true while disproving evolutionism.

oh, you mean intellectually dishonest books the scientific community finds no credibility in? oh yea, those its called pseudo science bubba, the same thing used to sell you magnets that heal you with ionizing energy.
 

klah

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2002
7,070
1
0
I am not going to read through the last 200 posts, so what is the consensus on this evolution idea; yea or nay?
 

FrozenYak

Senior member
Oct 10, 2002
322
0
0
Originally posted by: klah
I am not going to read through the last 200 posts, so what is the consensus on this evolution idea; yea or nay?

An answer hasnt been reached and i strongly doubt one will
 

Athlon4all

Diamond Member
Jun 18, 2001
5,416
0
76
Originally posted by: bGIveNs33
Do any of you creationist leave room for theistic evolution?? Do you really think that everything in the Bible was meant to be taken literally? Jesus told stories all the time, "Good Samaritan", "Prodigal Son" ect. those never happened! I repect you'll(i'm from the south) for standing up for what you believe in, but don't close your mind to other possibilities. The moment you stop trying to learn and ponder, you become ignorant.
No. Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth" Not to mention the fact that the Bible teaches that there was no death or suffering until man sinned and Evolution inheriantly in nature says that Man has come to be by organisms dieing, including those before man was even alive to sin.

Guys, why do you reject what the Bible teaches? God is offering you a better life!!!! If you would call on the name of the LORD and give you life to him, life would be so much better!!!! Don't think your good works will get you to heaven, "There is none righteous, no not one." I beg you all to reject unrighteousness and accept Christ today!!!!
 

silverpig

Lifer
Jul 29, 2001
27,703
11
81
Creationists don't want to know the absolute truth about our nature one way or another. Proof of evolution is heresy, proof of creationism is tragic irony.

If creationists proved creationism they would be destroying their preferred connection to their religion: faith.
 

NikPreviousAcct

No Lifer
Aug 15, 2000
52,763
1
0
Originally posted by: silverpig
Creationists don't want to know the absolute truth about our nature one way or another. Proof of evolution is heresy, proof of creationism is tragic irony.

If creationists proved creationism they would be destroying their preferred connection to their religion: faith.

How would proving that God created the world remove my faith that He will help me day-to-day? How will proving that negate my faith that He'll keep me safe while driving down some ghetto street in the middle of the night?

wow... you guys are fun to debate with

nik
 

NikPreviousAcct

No Lifer
Aug 15, 2000
52,763
1
0
Originally posted by: Athlon4all
Originally posted by: bGIveNs33
Do any of you creationist leave room for theistic evolution?? Do you really think that everything in the Bible was meant to be taken literally? Jesus told stories all the time, "Good Samaritan", "Prodigal Son" ect. those never happened! I repect you'll(i'm from the south) for standing up for what you believe in, but don't close your mind to other possibilities. The moment you stop trying to learn and ponder, you become ignorant.
No. Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth" Not to mention the fact that the Bible teaches that there was no death or suffering until man sinned and Evolution inheriantly in nature says that Man has come to be by organisms dieing, including those before man was even alive to sin.

Guys, why do you reject what the Bible teaches? God is offering you a better life!!!! If you would call on the name of the LORD and give you life to him, life would be so much better!!!! Don't think your good works will get you to heaven, "There is none righteous, no not one." I beg you all to reject unrighteousness and accept Christ today!!!!

Uh... you're not really doing us any good. :frown: Nobody's asking for a some trite Sunday school babbling.

nik
 

NikPreviousAcct

No Lifer
Aug 15, 2000
52,763
1
0
Originally posted by: FrustratedUser
Originally posted by: Tominator
Originally posted by: FrustratedUser
A new thread about Creationism is started.

I call all Creationists to present evidence.


But all your so-called evidence leads to a dead end where even scientist cannot agree.

I call all evolutionist to face the facts! There are none!

Hmmm, do I get this right?

Evolutionists have to prove their theory.
Creationistst just say God created everything and that's it. No discussion.


Ohh, come on! give me a break!

Well, if evolutionists can get away with creating things out of wild imagination, then I can sit here and ask you to prove it. I haven't read one single bit of evolutionary theory that doesn't contradict itself, require things impossible without some sort of preordered, controlled structure, etc.

nik
 

silverpig

Lifer
Jul 29, 2001
27,703
11
81
Religion is based on the faith that there is a god. Proof of a god would negate any need for faith in the existence of a god, which is really the problem most people have with religion.
 

silverpig

Lifer
Jul 29, 2001
27,703
11
81
Remember that article in Scientific American about this? It was called "15 Answers to Creationist Nonsense." It got a LOT of reaction and response from everyone, including members here. Well, I just picked up the new Scientific American, and in it are many letters about that article. Here is how the beginning of the letter section reads:

"John Rennie is a fool, and not very bright," begins one of the most colorful responses to his article "15 Answers to Creationist Nonsense" in the July 2002 issue. After asserting that "the very fact that we exist is evidence of a Supreme Being that created all things," the letter suggests that Rennie should be "flogged, stoned, drawn and quartered, and spat upon." Some of the hundreds of anti-evolution correspondents insisted that creationists no longer really made the silly argument "If men descended from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?"; others... well, repeated that argument. Rennie is grateful for the many promises of prayers for his soul [he'll need them for other reasons] but suspects that the glee of those writing that he will be in for a rude surprise on Judgment Day betrays a sinful lack of mercy. More letters on this article and other heresies from the July 2002 issue follow.

I've chosen a few other highlights from some of the letters that made it:


I think this one sums up the pointlessness of trying to force your view on someone:
"...Science cannot persuade those who, having rejected science, do not acknowledge the rules of scientific thought."


A suggestion of a "truce":
"...Rather the greatest service may well be to help people of faith understand that faith and science are two quite different ways of observing the same universe but that they cannot be substituted for the other, nor can either be used to judge the other."
 
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