How can sweatshop conditions be discouraged?

[jrs91]

Many companies outsource manufacturing of computers and similar electronics. They do this to minimize costs, but even to the extent of partnering with modern-day slave factories in third-world countries where regulations and laws do not protect citizen workers. This reality is sad for everyone involved.

What part of production do these poor sweatshop workers do? Do they assemble the boards? My understanding is that the computer components such as processors and memory are specially produced by machines, and the same for electrical components such as capacitors and resistors. So, if this is true, it leaves me wondering if avoiding these unethical practices is as simple as assembling in a friendly environment?

The Raspberry Pi charity assembles single-board microcomputers in the UK, where they are based, and Texas Instruments in the USA.

That is why I ask. I'd like to exercise my fair share of responsibility while still appreciating the gift of modern technology. In all honesty, any computer is still considerably fast! They still have plenty of appeal with an extraordinary array of functionality, not to mention layers of fascinating engineering principles to study, both in hardware and software!

Thank you so much!




Moved from Motherboards.

Anandytech Administrator
KeithTalent

 

[chubbyfatazn]

You said it yourself - money.

Got proof that all the things you listed are made by "sweatshop labour" in "slave factories" in "third-world countries"? That's a pretty big generalization.

In short, it's probably impossible for the average joe blow to determine what was actually made with sweatshop labour; you'd waste a lot of time getting nowhere. And given how many different parts go into a mobo, what would you do if even just one capacitor was made unethically? Not use it?

Also, this post doesn't belong in this subforum.

 

[redzo]

+1 wrong subforum

Good for those outsourcing companies!
They've maximized profit. Profit by all means is the purpose of any business. The limit is dictated only by that country's laws. Otherwise it is not a business.

Business is unethical. If you'll ever work in a corporation, get yourself in a leading position and follow yours truly philosophy, you'll probably bankrupt them.

And that's why I do not support corporate, nor religious involvement in the government of any country.

 

[realibrad]

+1 wrong subforum

Good for those outsourcing companies!
They've maximized profit. Profit by all means is the purpose of any business. The limit is dictated only by that country's laws. Otherwise it is not a business.

Business is unethical. If you'll ever work in a corporation, get yourself in a leading position and follow yours truly philosophy, you'll probably bankrupt them.

And that's why I do not support corporate, nor religious involvement in the government of any country.

Funny how this is a typical view. Honestly, this is how I though too when I was coming out of High School. Then, things changed as I was able to think a little deeper about things.

See, those who work in sweat shops are not typically forced to. There are some places where the workforce is, but its very rare. The vast majority of people who work on sweatshops do so willingly. This is because they are so poor, that a sweatshop is a better alternative. In CA, where I am from, I had a lot of friends that came from immigrants. Those parents busted their asses doing jobs that I would never want to do. The reason the parents came to CA, was because the life in the US was far better than the life they would probably have in Mexico. Jobs in Mexico simply do not pay as good as a sweatshop type job. The sad truth is that a sweatshop is better for them, than staying in Mexico. What people have done, is to remove the bottom rung for those immigrants, because those jobs are now gone. Worse yet, we have a social safety net that is limited to those who are citizens only. Immigrants are then coming to the US, and having to stay under the radar to improve their lives.

There are a lot of horrible things that happen in poor immigrant communities, because of the fear of getting caught. So when you ask how do we limit or get rid of sweat shops, just remember that what you are doing is hurting the poor to try to stop those at the top from earning money.

 

[master_shake_]

i have the answer for sweatshops.

air conditioning.

 

[Atreus21]

Funny how this is a typical view. Honestly, this is how I though too when I was coming out of High School. Then, things changed as I was able to think a little deeper about things.

See, those who work in sweat shops are not typically forced to. There are some places where the workforce is, but its very rare. The vast majority of people who work on sweatshops do so willingly. This is because they are so poor, that a sweatshop is a better alternative. In CA, where I am from, I had a lot of friends that came from immigrants. Those parents busted their asses doing jobs that I would never want to do. The reason the parents came to CA, was because the life in the US was far better than the life they would probably have in Mexico. Jobs in Mexico simply do not pay as good as a sweatshop type job. The sad truth is that a sweatshop is better for them, than staying in Mexico. What people have done, is to remove the bottom rung for those immigrants, because those jobs are now gone. Worse yet, we have a social safety net that is limited to those who are citizens only. Immigrants are then coming to the US, and having to stay under the radar to improve their lives.

There are a lot of horrible things that happen in poor immigrant communities, because of the fear of getting caught. So when you ask how do we limit or get rid of sweat shops, just remember that what you are doing is hurting the poor to try to stop those at the top from earning money.

Nailed.

You have to consider that these jobs represent opportunity to desperately poor people. Is it better that they remain unemployed and penniless, or working in conditions and for wages we in the first world consider terrible?

 

[brhanks]

People need to know where there stuff is coming from and honest if you start living in a more egalitarian society more people have to breathing room to start thinking about stuff besides living paycheck to paycheck.

 

[redzo]

See, those who work in sweat shops are not typically forced to. There are some places where the workforce is, but its very rare. The vast majority of people who work on sweatshops do so willingly. This is because they are so poor, that a sweatshop is a better alternative.

Of course, but let's not get too emotional. The people whom you are talking about, you can't get rid off, you'll never be able to eliminate that class in a functional democratic free society. They are like homeless people: everybody wants to help and feels empathy but there no solution for them over the long run.

In CA, where I am from, I had a lot of friends that came from immigrants. Those parents busted their asses doing jobs that I would never want to do.

That's a good point. They are satisfying demand. They feel a gap that you are unwilling to fill. Capitalism and healthy economy at its best because of them. Kudos to them!
You are sincere. I like that.

Jobs in Mexico simply do not pay as good as a sweatshop type job. The sad truth is that a sweatshop is better for them, than staying in Mexico. What people have done, is to remove the bottom rung for those immigrants, because those jobs are now gone. Worse yet, we have a social safety net that is limited to those who are citizens only. Immigrants are then coming to the US, and having to stay under the radar to improve their lives.
There are a lot of horrible things that happen in poor immigrant communities, because of the fear of getting caught. So when you ask how do we limit or get rid of sweat shops, just remember that what you are doing is hurting the poor to try to stop those at the top from earning money.

I live in a former communist eastern European country.
Tax collecting is inefficient because of deep government corruption.
Minimum wage is sh*t.
Better european economies get the pleasure to meet some of our fellow working class, but they've got nothing to fear about: we are not that many. This is me getting emotional.

My point was/is:
You cannot interfere that much in a economy. Too much regulation leads to totalitarianism. But, hey, how about regulating that banking system/wallstreet just a little? ...So that it does not crash anymore and take everybody else down with it. You could also increase minimum wage a little in order to help those poor people doing sh*ty jobs. This things seems achievebale by the Us from my perspective. They look so simple and dumb... Now regarding my own country: too much governmental corruption, no money for increasing the minimum wage => things are a little more complicated.

Funny how this is a typical view. Honestly, this is how I though too when I was coming out of High School. Then, things changed as I was able to think a little deeper about things.

I honestly do not understand where this came from.

 

[bradly1101]

Money [saved] will always trump ethics.

 

[realibrad]

Of course, but let's not get too emotional. The people whom you are talking about, you can't get rid off, you'll never be able to eliminate that class in a functional democratic free society. They are like homeless people: everybody wants to help and feels empathy but there no solution for them over the long run.



That's a good point. They are satisfying demand. They feel a gap that you are unwilling to fill. Capitalism and healthy economy at its best because of them. Kudos to them!
You are sincere. I like that.



I live in a former communist eastern European country.
Tax collecting is inefficient because of deep government corruption.
Minimum wage is sh*t.
Better european economies get the pleasure to meet some of our fellow working class, but they've got nothing to fear about: we are not that many. This is me getting emotional.

My point was/is:
You cannot interfere that much in a economy. Too much regulation leads to totalitarianism. But, hey, how about regulating that banking system/wallstreet just a little? ...So that it does not crash anymore and take everybody else down with it. You could also increase minimum wage a little in order to help those poor people doing sh*ty jobs. This things seems achievebale by the Us from my perspective. They look so simple and dumb... Now regarding my own country: too much governmental corruption, no money for increasing the minimum wage => things are a little more complicated.



I honestly do not understand where this came from.

"Business is unethical"

A business is not unethical in the same way it has no ethics. Its a very non trivial point to me.

Also, not everything needs regulation. Regulation is often used to "protect" the consumer. That seems fine at first, until you then think the consumer is stupid. Once you try and protect a stupid consumer, you get the system we in Europe and the USA. You can use regulation to make sure that things dont happen to 3rd parties with out the 3rd parties approval, but that is usually where it should end.

As for banking regulation, PM me on that one, because that is way to long to hash out on this thread. I would argue that "regulation" was the majority of the case of the 2008 banking collapse.

 

[jrs91]

Just by the way people are responding, we can see that this is a difficult issue. Many good points come up. We will always have the poor. However, look at how much revenue the industry collects, especially the companies who outsource.

Human greed will never cease to exist, but I guess I tend to look at it like slavery in the United States. In the mean time, I feel like I should have, as a consumer, the freedom to put my money towards something produced in a way I support.

 

[Vdubchaos]

Vote with your money, it's the only REAL vote that actually counts.

Where your money goes, is who you support. Figuring out if companies engage in sweatshop conditions is tough, but lot of info is out there!

 

[realibrad]

Just by the way people are responding, we can see that this is a difficult issue. Many good points come up. We will always have the poor. However, look at how much revenue the industry collects, especially the companies who outsource.

Human greed will never cease to exist, but I guess I tend to look at it like slavery in the United States. In the mean time, I feel like I should have, as a consumer, the freedom to put my money towards something produced in a way I support.

What you have to ask yourself is which way would help the poor the most. Many seem to think that low paying jobs help the rich more than the poor.

If you wanted to help the poor, give them a job. Give them skills and a pathway to a better life. Sweat shops used to be that pathway. They allowed families to gain skills and or improve the lives of other family members by giving them money to invest in them.

I get that you want to make sure the poor are not taken advantage of, but ask your self the following question.

Will not buying something take away a paycheck from a poor person? If the answer to that question, then I hope it was worth it. I don't see justification to a yes if it was simply because you don't want them to suffer. The poor suffer far more when they don't have low paying jobs as a option.

Remember, there are far more poor people living outside of 1st world countries. All that evil outsourcing ends up giving jobs that really, poor people could use.

 

[Matt1970]

Vote with your money, it's the only REAL vote that actually counts.

Where your money goes, is who you support. Figuring out if companies engage in sweatshop conditions is tough, but lot of info is out there!

This X1000

 

[jrs91]

Thank you for the economic/political insight. I certainly wouldn't want to attempt to help and end up hurting the situation. I look at all the profit put into the hands of these companies, and it just makes me wonder if regulations really could pose a better solution. I suppose for every x dollars I personally spend I could donate 1 dollar to progressive causes.

At any rate, I may have framed the question a little wrong, because I was really in search of what parts are made where, in respect to avoiding sweatshops.

To bring a little encouragement, here's links to some of the major semiconductor fabs that came up. These facilities not only seem legitimate, but just fascinating, especially in this day and age.

Taiwanese Semiconductor Manufacturing Company (TSMC)
http://www.tsmc.com/tsmcdotcom/PhotoListingAction.do
http://www.tsmc.com/english/newsEvents/dc_video.htm
http://www.tsmc.com/english/newsEvents/document_center.htm

Semiconductor Manufacturing International Corporation (SMIC)

"Wherever we build fabrication facilities, we also build residential communities for our employees and their families. Our residential community in Shanghai is a 276,000 square meter multipurpose campus. It includes housing of all kinds, K-12 school, medical and dental clinic, pharmacy, fitness center, ... A core element of each residential community is our company schools, which offer award-winning curricula in English and Chinese tracks. ... Today, the school has over 2,000 students and 200 teaching staff, and ranks in the top 1% of China’s private schools. ..."

http://www.smics.com/eng/about/csr.php#link05


In fact, I think that culture would be an exciting lifestyle for anyone!

Just seems unbalanced that these kinds of benefits aren't reciprocated to the sweatshops where final products get assembled, you know?

 

[MongGrel]

Tell ISIS the sweatshops are burning Korans and drawing cartons of Mohammed.

Might take a few out at any rate.

 

[halik]

Many companies outsource manufacturing of computers and similar electronics. They do this to minimize costs, but even to the extent of partnering with modern-day slave factories in third-world countries where regulations and laws do not protect citizen workers. This reality is sad for everyone involved.

What part of production do these poor sweatshop workers do? Do they assemble the boards? My understanding is that the computer components such as processors and memory are specially produced by machines, and the same for electrical components such as capacitors and resistors. So, if this is true, it leaves me wondering if avoiding these unethical practices is as simple as assembling in a friendly environment?

The Raspberry Pi charity assembles single-board microcomputers in the UK, where they are based, and Texas Instruments in the USA.

That is why I ask. I'd like to exercise my fair share of responsibility while still appreciating the gift of modern technology. In all honesty, any computer is still considerably fast! They still have plenty of appeal with an extraordinary array of functionality, not to mention layers of fascinating engineering principles to study, both in hardware and software!

Thank you so much!




Moved from Motherboards.

Anandytech Administrator
KeithTalent

Time and gradual development of the country in question? The alternative to what you describe is subsistence farming; which is far worse. There's a reason why all these people travel from rural China to work at these factories.

 

[Zebo]

You guys need to read democracy inc. Probably the best primer on whats going on in modern world. Basically you cant until ppl get united world wide. (which is impossible we cant even do that in a city) Capital will just move to next sweat shop desperate country if you employ labor organizers or boycotts. Prepare for slavery.

Thank god im retired.

with corporations controlling all governments you are a commodity to be cast aside like garbage when you can no longer make money for corp or someone else can better. It's no longer about community or middle class or anything else besides some billionaires bottom line.

 

[1prophet]

Nailed.

You have to consider that these jobs represent opportunity to desperately poor people. Is it better that they remain unemployed and penniless, or working in conditions and for wages we in the first world consider terrible?

Yes and I'm sure Americans that have gotten pink slips so their jobs could be outsourced went home happy that their job loss helped some poor third worlders out their.

It's amazing how these "profit only matters corporations" justify their decisions around some altruistic bullshit and now it's all OK.

These same corporations then get all butthurt when their products and IP is copied and then they cry to the tax payer funded American government to do something about it,

because these little people that these corporations outsourced to should be happy just to have a job and shouldn't be stealing their corporate masters intellectual property or counterfeiting their goods.

 

[Atreus21]

Yes and I'm sure Americans that have gotten pink slips so their jobs could be outsourced went home happy that their job loss helped some poor third worlders out their.

You'd prefer that global market conditions be controlled so that no one ever has to lose their jobs? Should all American consumers be denied the convenience and efficiency of an ATM so that we can keep a few thousand extra bank tellers employed?

It's amazing how these "profit only matters corporations" justify their decisions around some altruistic bullshit and now it's all OK.

These same corporations then get all butthurt when their products and IP is copied and then they cry to the tax payer funded American government to do something about it,

because these little people that these corporations outsourced to should be happy just to have a job and shouldn't be stealing their corporate masters intellectual property or counterfeiting their goods.

The beauty of capitalism is that it subordinates greed to the service of your peers. You can only be greedy commensurate with your producing something that people want, unless you want to operate illegally.

A free trade system can only happen if there is respect for private property. Just as people have a limited right to physical property, they have a limited right to their ideas as well.

 

[inachu]

Many companies outsource manufacturing of computers and similar electronics. They do this to minimize costs, but even to the extent of partnering with modern-day slave factories in third-world countries where regulations and laws do not protect citizen workers. This reality is sad for everyone involved.

What part of production do these poor sweatshop workers do? Do they assemble the boards? My understanding is that the computer components such as processors and memory are specially produced by machines, and the same for electrical components such as capacitors and resistors. So, if this is true, it leaves me wondering if avoiding these unethical practices is as simple as assembling in a friendly environment?

The Raspberry Pi charity assembles single-board microcomputers in the UK, where they are based, and Texas Instruments in the USA.

That is why I ask. I'd like to exercise my fair share of responsibility while still appreciating the gift of modern technology. In all honesty, any computer is still considerably fast! They still have plenty of appeal with an extraordinary array of functionality, not to mention layers of fascinating engineering principles to study, both in hardware and software!

Thank you so much!




Moved from Motherboards.

Anandytech Administrator
KeithTalent

Make it illegal for employees to live with their employers at their mansions.