How can the Democratic Party take away Florida's delegates?

[Lord Evermore]

How is it that the national Democratic Party can sanction the Florida Democratic Party by taking away their delegates to the national convention? Isn't this essentially telling every Democrat in Florida "your vote no longer counts"?

The Republican Party also sanctioned their Florida group, by cutting their delegates in half. Again, how is this possible?

CNN says it's all because of "squabbles over scheduling". So somebody in the higher levels of the official party can just have a bad day, get pissy about someone in the Florida party, and just negate the votes of millions of people?

The system is already royally fucked up with the whole 2-party system, primary elections and delegates to conventions and the electoral college, but this takes the cake, being able to penalize the voters of an entire state because some bureaucrats that none of them had anything to do with selecting to be in charge or make decisions and whose names the voters will never know got their panties in a twist, or forgot to put a checkmark in a box on a form.

 

[Mail5398]

If you know the rules going in and choose to ignore them, you will be punished. Simple as that.

 

[nageov3t]

they can do whatever they want to

but I hope they're not surprised when McCain repeats his Florida win in November.

 

[FoBoT]

you don't understand how the parties/national conventions work

the national party controls it ALL

so they make the rules
when the state legislators/governors defied the national party , they were "punished"

the voters don't control the primary/nomination process, the national party does

 

[SViscusi]

Originally posted by: Lord Evermore
How is it that the national Democratic Party can sanction the Florida Democratic Party by taking away their delegates to the national convention? Isn't this essentially telling every Democrat in Florida "your vote no longer counts"?

The Republican Party also sanctioned their Florida group, by cutting their delegates in half. Again, how is this possible?

CNN says it's all because of "squabbles over scheduling". So somebody in the higher levels of the official party can just have a bad day, get pissy about someone in the Florida party, and just negate the votes of millions of people?

The system is already royally fucked up with the whole 2-party system, primary elections and delegates to conventions and the electoral college, but this takes the cake, being able to penalize the voters of an entire state because some bureaucrats that none of them had anything to do with selecting to be in charge or make decisions and whose names the voters will never know got their panties in a twist, or forgot to put a checkmark in a box on a form.

Florida, in their rush to get in on all that early ad money, broke the rules and got punished. They could have had the primary at a later date but they chose not and it's that kind of bs that gets us primaries starting in the beginning of January.

If the National parties don't stop this crap now next cycle we'll begin in December, and the next one after that it will be just after midterms in November.

 

[IronWing]

Originally posted by: FoBoT
you don't understand how the parties/national conventions work

the national party controls it ALL

so they make the rules
when the state legislators/governors defied the national party , they were "punished"

the voters don't control the primary/nomination process, the national party does

That's because the primaries are the parties' parties. The states ought to get out of the business of supporting the primaries. It is really not the function of state government to assist parties in selecting their candidates.

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: loki8481
they can do whatever they want to

but I hope they're not surprised when McCain repeats his Florida win in November.

It will be interesting to see if any one the Republican side brings this issue up in the fall.

Kind of funny how the party that complains the most about disenfranchised voters just disenfranchised one of the most important states in the country.

 

[0roo0roo]

becuz, apparently the whole make our votes count spiel from 2000 meant nothing.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
becuz, apparently the whole make our votes count spiel from 2000 meant nothing.

your legislature threw your votes away and knew it when they did it.

 

[Lord Evermore]

Originally posted by: FoBoT
you don't understand how the parties/national conventions work

the national party controls it ALL

so they make the rules
when the state legislators/governors defied the national party , they were "punished"

the voters don't control the primary/nomination process, the national party does

I understand that the two parties are, officially anyway, just two coalitions of people who signed up to stand together like a union. But they get special protection that other parties don't.

My point is how is it LEGAL for them to disallow delegates from a state? I don't know if it's actual law, but there will always be a Democrat and Republican candidate for President. Other parties have to scrounge for support from every state to get in, but the two major parties are pretty much automatically granted a slot. The primaries and conventions are just their process to select the candidate, but it seems like since they are for all intents enshrined in law and tradition as being in the election, there should be other laws in place that ensure they are fair in how they handle their selections. The governor and legislators did something stupid and broke the rules, but why should a little old lady in Orlando lose her say in who will represent her in the elections for the party she chose to support? Does she get her money back for any donations she made since her vote in the primaries doesn't count anymore? I think not.

Obviously it comes down to it being up to the people to change the rules if they aren't fair, or get laws passed, but we all know that won't happen regardless of what "the people" actually want, because then someone in power might lose that power.

 

[Lord Evermore]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: loki8481
they can do whatever they want to

but I hope they're not surprised when McCain repeats his Florida win in November.

It will be interesting to see if any one the Republican side brings this issue up in the fall.

Kind of funny how the party that complains the most about disenfranchised voters just disenfranchised one of the most important states in the country.

The Republicans cut half the delegates from Florida too, so they can't be too reproachful.

 

[Wreckem]

Because the DNC and RNC have the power to do so.

Party nominations are under the authority of the parties, not the government. They can do as they wish.

Both the RNC and DNC have strict rules on primary scheduling.

The states wanted to front load the primaries. Doing so would give people less of a choice.

A national primary is a horrible idea. As is this years super tuesday.

If the states got their way and the primaries were all front loaded into Jan. and early Feb. We'd have Rudy Guiliani and Hillary Clinton winning their parties nominations by landslides.

The RNC and DNC put their foots down with Florida and Michigan, and no other states continued on trying to move their primaries up to Jan.

 

[Wreckem]

Originally posted by: Lord Evermore

Originally posted by: FoBoT
you don't understand how the parties/national conventions work

the national party controls it ALL

so they make the rules
when the state legislators/governors defied the national party , they were "punished"

the voters don't control the primary/nomination process, the national party does

I understand that the two parties are, officially anyway, just two coalitions of people who signed up to stand together like a union. But they get special protection that other parties don't.

My point is how is it LEGAL for them to disallow delegates from a state? I don't know if it's actual law, but there will always be a Democrat and Republican candidate for President. Other parties have to scrounge for support from every state to get in, but the two major parties are pretty much automatically granted a slot. The primaries and conventions are just their process to select the candidate, but it seems like since they are for all intents enshrined in law and tradition as being in the election, there should be other laws in place that ensure they are fair in how they handle their selections. The governor and legislators did something stupid and broke the rules, but why should a little old lady in Orlando lose her say in who will represent her in the elections for the party she chose to support? Does she get her money back for any donations she made since her vote in the primaries doesn't count anymore? I think not.

Obviously it comes down to it being up to the people to change the rules if they aren't fair, or get laws passed, but we all know that won't happen regardless of what "the people" actually want, because then someone in power might lose that power.

Actually, the Democratic Party and Republican Party are more than "coalitions" they are indpendent non profit corporations more or less. They can disallow delegates, because party nominations ARE NOT under the authority of the Federal Government, they are under the authority of the RNC and DNC. They create the rules the state parties are supposed to abide them.

This was known last summer. They got stripped then. This isnt a new thing. The people of Florida should have demanded the date be moved back.

 

[Moonbeam]

Hell, the Supreme Coup stole their entire election.

 

[randym431]

They were punished because of the "rules".

Otherwise...
Some state, wanting the attention, would constantly move their primary
up and up and up (and up and up and up).

Heck, some states would be having their 2012 primary/caucus BEFORE the 2008 november elections. :roll:

 

[Balt]

I think the problem is you are considering the two parties as part of the official government system, when they aren't. They are, in essence, two private corporations or organizations that only offer the power of getting to call yourself the OFFICIAL candidate for the Democrats or the OFFICIAL candidate for the Republicans.

Basically, they can do pretty much whatever they want to in the primaries. The idea is that if the people don't like it, they can create a new party with whatever rules they want. We aren't officially limited to a two-party or three-party system, that's just the way it turns out.

 

[jpeyton]

Florida doesn't deserve the right to vote in any national election until they overhaul their voting system from the top down in every county, and prove its efficacy.

 

[Thump553]

Lord Evermore, it's not a matter of law-that's enacted by Congress, but rather a matter of party rules. In a nutshell, the section of the national Democratic party that is in charge of enforcing convention rules warned the Florida Dem party not to move up it's primary, and if it did, the delegates selected in that primary would not be seated at the convention. The Florida Dem party decides to move up the primary in defiance anyway.

This is a power struggle between the local and the national.

As analogy, suppose Duke University announced it was going to pay all its basketball players a salary. The NCAA says you can't do that and if you do, you will not be permitted to play in March Madness. Duke pays the salaries anyway and is banned. Is that unfair? Because Duke is a great name in basketball and a big draw, should the rules be ignored for them?

It's not absolutely final what will happen here. Its possible some face-saving compromise could be worked out-perhaps Florida can have a caucus down the road and those delegates will be seated. Rest assured that if there is no settlement there will be a batttle to seat those delegates at the convention, especially if their votes will be significant to the outcome. If Super Tuesday seals the outcome of the convention it will all be meaningless anyway, and in that event maybe the national party will back down.

 

[reeserock]

Hell, the party leaders used to pick the candidate in a smoke filled room without any input from the people. That's why we have the primary nowadays.

 

[IronWing]

Originally posted by: reeserock
Hell, the party leaders used to pick the candidate in a smoke filled room without any input from the people. That's why we have the primary nowadays.

The smoke-filled room was a better system. At least the candidates represented the desires of the party members.

 

[Lemon law]

Like it or not, flawed or not, the political primary process is a electoral reform less than a century old designed expressly to take the political parties nominated power away from "party bosses" and place it in the more in the hands of the "American people."

Like many previous posters have pointed out, its simply the existing set of rules, and if you don't like the existing rules, the day long passed to change the rules for this year as both parties now have quite a few states that will lose all or part of their delegates at their respective conventions.

However, as any student of political conventions knows, prior party rules can be remarkably plastic in the first day or two of any party nominating convention. And while the speeches are given amid much hoopla made for TV ceremony, back at the hotels, the pragmatic with long knives are still hammering out the platform and delegate seating rules, and in that opening back room process, the nomination is often won or lost. And in event of a possible deadlocked convention, the pissing contests over rules can get down right weird as all groups try to put together all manner of strange scenarios.

 

[Deeko]

I hate the primary system.

 

[Lemon law]

Originally posted by: Deeko
I hate the primary system.

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Read your American history, the previous process was worse. And now propose a better process than the primary process if you want to be a credible reformer.