How can the dems just be blowwing another election?

[fisheerman]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Polls now don't matter. The only poll that matters happens in November. I honestly don't know why either side is so focused on polls right now.

ZV

Negative campaigning Republicans are trying to instill FUD amongst the Democrats.

Is that your take on the OP?

He did say 'polls' and the 'dems... blowwing another election' when it is only one national poll among several, and the elections are still more than 2 months away.
That does kinda sound like FUD, wouldn't you say?

it was front page on yahoo DA. sorry for not visiting all the poll sites and calculating the average. I was just pointing out that this election should be a landslide with everyone pissed of at the current admin and it seems like it isn't going to be.

 

[lupi]

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: fisheerman
I just don't understand how the dem party can be blowing this election with such a poor choice in candidate. I'm not politically affiliated and always vote for the best candidate.

People that I know (as well as I) want change from the current repub party but will never vote for such a left winger as obama.

I just can't believe with the current approval rating in the repubs and people looking for alternatives that this race is even close.

Know it looks like they are going to blow it again

new polls

repost.

and if you think obama is a left winger then you'd never vote for a democrat so quit the apolitical bullshit talk. You want, what? a pro-life, pro-gun, anti-welfare, anti-big govt democrat? pray tell, who is this mythical beast?

And that's why the dems will lose. Can't suck up to the leftist fringe and expect to win.

 

[lupi]

Originally posted by: OrByte

Originally posted by: fisheerman

Originally posted by: OrByte

Originally posted by: fisheerman
I just don't understand how the dem party can be blowing this election with such a poor choice in candidate. I'm not politically affiliated and always vote for the best candidate.

People that I know (as well as I) want change from the current repub party but will never vote for such a left winger as obama.

I just can't believe with the current approval rating in the repubs and people looking for alternatives that this race is even close.

Know it looks like they are going to blow it again

new polls

People that I know (as well as I) want change from the current repub party and will vote for Obama because McCain will be 4 more years of GWB.

I guess my people cancel out your people

but most of the people that I am around have in the past been die hard republicans and are furious with the current state of the party and are looking for alternatives.

im in VA and I can tell you if the dems would've had someone closer to center instead of far left this state would turn blue.

the dems took a guarenteed victory and turned it into a real election race.

but most of the people that I am around have in the past been die hard republicans too! and THEY Are furious with the current state of the part and are looking for alternatives!!! OMGWTFHTH!?!?

anecdotal evidence is fun!!

This isn't passing the sniff test...sorry.

Oh and btw- I wonder if BHO picks Kaine as his VEEP if that has any impact on VA going blue hmmmm?

I don't rthink there is much chance of the state going blue now. Just after the primary kaine starting taking a tour of the state with his more taxes would be good for us plan which got rave reviews and no chance of passing at the state level.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: fisheerman

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Polls now don't matter. The only poll that matters happens in November. I honestly don't know why either side is so focused on polls right now.

ZV

Negative campaigning Republicans are trying to instill FUD amongst the Democrats.

Is that your take on the OP?

He did say 'polls' and the 'dems... blowwing another election' when it is only one national poll among several, and the elections are still more than 2 months away.
That does kinda sound like FUD, wouldn't you say?

it was front page on yahoo DA. sorry for not visiting all the poll sites and calculating the average. I was just pointing out that this election should be a landslide with everyone pissed of at the current admin and it seems like it isn't going to be.

Okay, that understandably covers the polls comment but not the rest of your comments. Obama is not 'far left' and a 'landslide' in a Presidential election is defined as winning by 10 points, and those almost only happen when an incumbent President is running for re-election. Otherwise, extremely close elections are the norm. Remember 2000, when a post-impeachment post-dot.bust Clinton was sagging in the polls and yet Bush couldn't even win the popular vote (something which Clinton never did in both his runs BTW).
So it's not that Obama is doing poorly, it's that expectations are unrealistic. And why? FUD, of course. The easiest (but slimiest) way to defeat your opponent is to convince him that he's losing when he's really winning.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: winnar111

Originally posted by: jonks

Democrats don't 'leave you alone', though they'll leave more in your pocket if you have less and take more from your pocket if you are worth more. They don't believe in small gov't or letting the market decide everything. They believe everyone is needed to help everyone else at least to some degree. No democrat could ever reach the nomination running on republican principles.

As eskimo asked, on what positions is Obama far left, or at least, left of the other possible dem noms? He was nearly identical to the runner up on every issue.

NAFTA, welfare reform, and DADT. Oh, and the absurd policy that is affirmative action.

Please explain what about Obama's positions on these issues is 'far left'.

 

[GTKeeper]

Originally posted by: fisheerman
I just don't understand how the dem party can be blowing this election with such a poor choice in candidate. I'm not politically affiliated and always vote for the best candidate.

People that I know (as well as I) want change from the current repub party but will never vote for such a left winger as obama.

I just can't believe with the current approval rating in the repubs and people looking for alternatives that this race is even close.

Know it looks like they are going to blow it again

new polls

I agree with you.

The people in 'the middle' like you and I are seriously getting jacked again this election. Its funny is that WE are the ones that decide elections and not the lefties or righties.

Until Obama gets a simple message out and starts sticking up for himself its going to be possible for McCain to win.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: GTKeeper

Originally posted by: fisheerman
I just don't understand how the dem party can be blowing this election with such a poor choice in candidate. I'm not politically affiliated and always vote for the best candidate.

People that I know (as well as I) want change from the current repub party but will never vote for such a left winger as obama.

I just can't believe with the current approval rating in the repubs and people looking for alternatives that this race is even close.

Know it looks like they are going to blow it again

new polls

I agree with you.

The people in 'the middle' like you and I are seriously getting jacked again this election. Its funny is that WE are the ones that decide elections and not the lefties or righties.

Until Obama gets a simple message out and starts sticking up for himself its going to be possible for McCain to win.

You aren't getting jacked at all. Both of the candidates are centrists. In a two party election the median voter always decides it.

 

[GrGr]

"people want change just not left extreme"

Hehehe, these 'people' want the impossible as usual.

So I guess they will vote for McCain to continue to increase inflation, continue to increase the size of government and national debt, continue to pursue even more war etc etc etc. All the while proclaiming how they do not want those things...

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: eskimospy
You aren't getting jacked at all. Both of the candidates are centrists. In a two party election the median voter always decides it.

Seriously. I'm economically conservative, socially liberal, and the tipping point for me in this election is that the Republicans have completely failed (yet again!) in their promises to be fiscally conservative (and McCain's proposed budget promises to do so yet again again) while continuing to pander to the hardline social conservatives.
So I feel little choice but to go with Obama, who IMO is more likely to balance the budget and who, of course, is a social liberal.

But this far left, far right crap is nonsense.

 

[winnar111]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: winnar111

Originally posted by: jonks

Democrats don't 'leave you alone', though they'll leave more in your pocket if you have less and take more from your pocket if you are worth more. They don't believe in small gov't or letting the market decide everything. They believe everyone is needed to help everyone else at least to some degree. No democrat could ever reach the nomination running on republican principles.

As eskimo asked, on what positions is Obama far left, or at least, left of the other possible dem noms? He was nearly identical to the runner up on every issue.

NAFTA, welfare reform, and DADT. Oh, and the absurd policy that is affirmative action.

Please explain what about Obama's positions on these issues is 'far left'.

They're to the left of Bill Clinton's positions staked during his Presidency.

 

[fisheerman]

Originally posted by: GTKeeper

Originally posted by: fisheerman
I just don't understand how the dem party can be blowing this election with such a poor choice in candidate. I'm not politically affiliated and always vote for the best candidate.

People that I know (as well as I) want change from the current repub party but will never vote for such a left winger as obama.

I just can't believe with the current approval rating in the repubs and people looking for alternatives that this race is even close.

Know it looks like they are going to blow it again

new polls

I agree with you.

The people in 'the middle' like you and I are seriously getting jacked again this election. Its funny is that WE are the ones that decide elections and not the lefties or righties.

Until Obama gets a simple message out and starts sticking up for himself its going to be possible for McCain to win.

I agree and I think we are the norm.

I'm looking for a good reason to vote for this guy but everytime I get close he changes his position. Just stick to what you believe and stop pandering to the polls.

Mccain is a no go in my book so I guess I will not be voting.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: winnar111
They're to the left of Bill Clinton's positions staked during his Presidency.

Wow, that is weak. And I suppose you have some kind of explanation as to why it was the right that was opposed to NAFTA during Clinton's Presidency?

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: winnar111

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: winnar111

Originally posted by: jonks

Democrats don't 'leave you alone', though they'll leave more in your pocket if you have less and take more from your pocket if you are worth more. They don't believe in small gov't or letting the market decide everything. They believe everyone is needed to help everyone else at least to some degree. No democrat could ever reach the nomination running on republican principles.

As eskimo asked, on what positions is Obama far left, or at least, left of the other possible dem noms? He was nearly identical to the runner up on every issue.

NAFTA, welfare reform, and DADT. Oh, and the absurd policy that is affirmative action.

Please explain what about Obama's positions on these issues is 'far left'.

They're to the left of Bill Clinton's positions staked during his Presidency.

Since when is the relation to Bill Clinton's position the arbiter of what is 'far left'? Recent polls have seventy five percent of Americans support the repeal of don't ask don't tell as Obama does. I'll give you a hint, 75% of the population can't be on the far left. If they are, it's not the far left. 70% of Americans support affirmative action, so once again... how can 70% of a country be on 'the far left'? For NAFTA 56% of Americans want to renegotiate the agreement as Obama does. Once again, how can 56% of Americans be on 'the far left'?

Your problem is that you've taken your personal opinions and decided that they must represent the center. Guess what: they don't. There are a lot of things Clinton did in office that were liberal. There were quite a few that were downright right wing. He's famous for this.

So as I asked before, what positions of Obama's are 'far left'? I'm still waiting.

 

[thraashman]

I think what's going on isn't so much the Dems blowing this election, it's the "nice guys finish last" prospect showing its head. Look at the campaigning out there. McCain's is getting increasingly negative and attacking. Obama's is staying cleaner. We've seen this again and again. All the Republicans do is attack attack attack. They don't know how to do anything else (and I don't mean in just campaigning). However, much like in dating, the assholes get the goods. We've seen nice guys finish last before. And it's happening again. There's this bombardment of negative campaigning from McCain that is beginning to convince people that its true. Hell, from all the campaigning I've seen all I can say about McCain is he might actually be a bigger jackass than Bush is. He's certainly toting the line of trying to become the most incompetent candidate for president ever.

As I've heard say, think of how stupid the average person is, now realize that half the people are dumber than that. It seems that those half are conservatives from what I've seen. Because they're the ones that keep buying this bullshit, false, negative campaigning and might just end up electing a moron president who'll bankrupt us while polluting our beaches and destroying our air and endangered species. But damn will Iran be bombed and we'll appreciate that full out nuclear war with Russia he causes!

Seriously, wake up people. McCain is a joke and a horrible option for president. Obama might not be perfect, but he's one of the best options we've had in decades (yes, I know, that's not saying much).

 

[OrByte]

Originally posted by: acheron2112

Originally posted by: OrByte

Originally posted by: fisheerman
I just don't understand how the dem party can be blowing this election with such a poor choice in candidate. I'm not politically affiliated and always vote for the best candidate.

People that I know (as well as I) want change from the current repub party but will never vote for such a left winger as obama.

I just can't believe with the current approval rating in the repubs and people looking for alternatives that this race is even close.

Know it looks like they are going to blow it again

new polls

People that I know (as well as I) want change from the current repub party and will vote for Obama because McCain will be 4 more years of GWB.

I guess my people cancel out your people

I didn't vote for Bush either time, but I'm very likely voting for McCain, because despite the Dems repeating that McCain is "4 more years of GWB", that's fairly obviously not true.

Perhaps my people plus his people beat your people?

fairly obviously not true!?

Let me give you some examples of how McCain lines up with GWB, only recently too I might add...because McCain had to flip-flop on some of these issues to get there...

McCain will continue with Bush's tax cuts...making the top ~10% of Americans the only real Americans with any stake in the "Ownership Society" of GWB. <he flip floped on this issue btw.

McCain will continue to blunder in Iraq even though Iraq is requesting a pull out date. McCain wants to be there for 100 years

McCain is just as hawkish when it comes to foreign policy as GWB is. Just look at his rhetoric over the Russia/Georgia crisis. Look at what McCain has said about Russia for months now. Even GWB looks more conservative when it comes to foreign policy.

McCain will send conservative Justices to the court to overturn RvW. GWB started that process. That said, this is a personal preference issue, and I don't want McCain anywhere near selecting judges for SCOTUS.

McCain had to flip flop on taking the endorsement of the religious right, GWBs "base" that mistakenly elected him 2 times.

McCain voted with Bush's position 90+% as a senator since Bush took office. (I think one study had Obama voting 40% of the time with GWB since Obama has been a Senator)

McCain back in 2000 was a much better candidate than the McCain in 2008.

But what is even MORE important, is that McCain has surrounded himself with many of the same thinkers and political resources that GWB did. These influential people had their chance, they royally fvcked this country, and I don't want these people (neocon, PNAC, whatever) anywhere near a seat of authority or influence in this country.

I am sure there are issues where Bush and McCain do not agree. Drilling in ANWAR is one of them, I think. However, when it comes to domestic (economic) policy, and foreign policy, and SCOTUS, McCain and Bush are mirror freaking images of each other. And to me those are very important issues.

I think I've come up with some pretty obvious ways wherein a vote for McCain is a vote for GWB...again... I'd appreciate it if I could get a list wherein a vote for McCain isn't a vote for a 3rd GWB term.

 

[OrByte]

.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: acheron2112
despite the Dems repeating that McCain is "4 more years of GWB", that's fairly obviously not true.

Really how so?

 

[jpeyton]

BTW, use a poll that combines all polls. Don't put all your eggs in one nest. FiveThirtyEight, CNN Politics and RCP all have Obama up in the polls.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
BTW, use a poll that combines all polls. Don't put all your eggs in one nest. FiveThirtyEight, CNN Politics and RCP all have Obama up in the polls.

That is quickly changing

 

[RY62]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: GTKeeper

Originally posted by: fisheerman
I just don't understand how the dem party can be blowing this election with such a poor choice in candidate. I'm not politically affiliated and always vote for the best candidate.

People that I know (as well as I) want change from the current repub party but will never vote for such a left winger as obama.

I just can't believe with the current approval rating in the repubs and people looking for alternatives that this race is even close.

Know it looks like they are going to blow it again

new polls

I agree with you.

The people in 'the middle' like you and I are seriously getting jacked again this election. Its funny is that WE are the ones that decide elections and not the lefties or righties.

Until Obama gets a simple message out and starts sticking up for himself its going to be possible for McCain to win.

You aren't getting jacked at all. Both of the candidates are centrists. In a two party election the median voter always decides it.

LOL They are now. :laugh:

Until he was the nominee you couldn't say that about Obama. Actually, you couldn't really say what he was, though he did seem to always vote the party line, whenever he did happen to vote.

 

[newnameman]

Originally posted by: eskimospy
If they are, it's not the far left. 70% of Americans support affirmative action, so once again... how can 70% of a country be on 'the far left'? For NAFTA 56% of Americans want to renegotiate the agreement as Obama does. Once again, how can 56% of Americans be on 'the far left'?

Your problem is that you've taken your personal opinions and decided that they must represent the center. Guess what: they don't. There are a lot of things Clinton did in office that were liberal. There were quite a few that were downright right wing. He's famous for this.

So as I asked before, what positions of Obama's are 'far left'? I'm still waiting.

http://www.rasmussenreports.co...give_special_treatment
Bullsh!t. Stop spreading FUD, troll. :|

 

[Rainsford]

I'm sorry, but isn't this the same form-letter bullshit we hear every single election? Republicans have, for some reason, been able to equate "liberal" with "OMG communist" (or at least they think they have), so every election they haul out the old charge that the Democratic candidate is "super liberal" or "the most liberal member of the Senate", or some other variation of the same basic idea. I don't think they think it's a good strategy, it's just what you do if you're a Republican talking head and it's election time.

But for the love of God, how can people be so stupid as to actually consider this a real argument? I mean, John Kerry was "the most liberal member of the Senate" in 2004, and he's still there...so do you mean we went ahead and election someone even more liberal to the Senate, and then nominated him for President? Is Kerry now the second most liberal member of the Senate? Boy, this is some bad luck on the part of the Dems :roll:

Seriously, how does this not sound ridiculous to everyone else?

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: newnameman

Originally posted by: eskimospy
If they are, it's not the far left. 70% of Americans support affirmative action, so once again... how can 70% of a country be on 'the far left'? For NAFTA 56% of Americans want to renegotiate the agreement as Obama does. Once again, how can 56% of Americans be on 'the far left'?

Your problem is that you've taken your personal opinions and decided that they must represent the center. Guess what: they don't. There are a lot of things Clinton did in office that were liberal. There were quite a few that were downright right wing. He's famous for this.

So as I asked before, what positions of Obama's are 'far left'? I'm still waiting.

http://www.rasmussenreports.co...give_special_treatment
Bullsh!t. Stop spreading FUD, troll. :|

First of all, how is citing polling data spreading 'fear, uncertainty, and doubt'? Anyways, that doesn't matter. According to Pew Research 70% of Americans support affirmative action.

What you're missing here is that this is a classic case of question bias. If you ask someone if they support a project that provides 'special treatment', lots of people reject it. If you ask them if they support programs to help African Americans overcome historical discrimination, then lots support it. That's how both polls can ask about the same topic and come up with different answers.

To learn more about this topic I can point you to two good papers. One is by David Sears called "Is it really racism? The origins of white Americans' opposition to race targeted policies", the other is by Paul Sniderman called "Beyond Race: Social Justice as a Race Neutral Ideal". The papers are in some ways only tangently related to our topic, but they clearly show the differences in question bias and how it applies to affirmative action.

Oh, and calling me a troll is pretty stupid.

 

[jjzelinski]

Originally posted by: Vic
Well then it's a good thing that Obama is not 'far left extreme.'

And only one poll shows McCain up today. Other polls, like Gallup, show that Obama is still up in the race.

The minor bump McCain is getting right now is because he's a filthy mudslinger, has completely broken his promise to run a clean campaign, and is running attack ad after attack ad full of lies.
And his 'straight talk' consists of toeing the party line, most of which was written by the Bush, hence the 'McSame' or 'Bush 2.0' comments.

edit: and FFS, somebody get back to me when the Republicans will 'leave me alone.' I can't believe that kind of bullsh!t actually flies.

That's exactly how McCain lost my faith, because at one point I truly admired the man. Shit, I even read one of his Bios and that's pretty much a first. I read it about three, maybe four years ago prior to him making a full time job out a capitulating on what he claimed were the virtues of his character that he spent a lifetime cultivating. Part of me thinks that all this bullshit he's been espousing for the last couple of years is just smoke and mirrors to let him slip by the resentful, narrow minded sheep that currently rule the Republican party, but then I realize how contradictory that is to what he portrayed himself as. fucking pisses me off. For lack of a better word, the guy was something of a hero to me for the reasons modern cons hate him so much. Oh well, he sure as shit won't be getting my vote.

 

[Infohawk]

I could still see Obama winning but I also have my doubts. The problem with Democratic party is that they do not recognize the importance of race in electoral politics. This is still a white country. That will change but for now it is the case.

The average white person sees Democrats pandering to illegal immigrants (amnesty) and minorities (affirmative action). Obama is an archetypal liberal. Kerry already failed as that.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the Democrats need to pick a Nascar-looking candidate like Bill Clinton.