How can the dems just be blowwing another election?

[Vic]

Originally posted by: OrByte
I thought Kerry is the most librrl?

No no, that's algore.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: winnar111

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: RY62

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: winnar111

What's there not to believe? John Edwards was fairly moderate from 1998-2002, cosponsored the IWR, then flocked to the left wing of his party for whatever he did vote on in 2003.

Evan Bayh did the same thing a couple years later, he was one of very few red state Democrats to vote against Bush's SCOTUS nominees.

What's not to believe is that you think all the Democratic presidential candidates attempt to move in lockstep with moveon.org and NARAL. An idea that's obviously absurd and completely unsupportable by someone who takes even the slightest bit of time to look up their positions.

These people aren't caricatures man, they are regular people. Instead of just blindly hating them, take some time to learn about it.

I think the point is valid, at least in recent elections. If the candidate isn't far enough to the left the Dems won't nominate him/her. If the candidate isn't centrist the people won't elect him/her. Sooner or later the Dems will wise up and nominate a centrist then the candidate won't be forced to shift so hard for the general election.

Both parties do that to an equal extent. Just because centrists pander to the base for a few months doesn't make them not centrists.

That make George Bush a centrist in 2004?

Did you not read my other reply to you? Your answer lies there.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

It was the National Journal that rated him most liberal. They have been rating Senators like that for years. It is probably the most respected nonpartisan ratings in Washington.

He may not be THE farthest left of all Senators, but his record for 2007 did place him as the most liberal Senator. Even if the ratings are messed up it is hard to go from furthest left to middle of the road like some of his supports want to do.

I know what magazine it was, I remember the other thread. Maybe you should go refresh your memory on it.

 

[IGBT]

..get used to it. the democrat party has been hijacked by eco-kooks and secular progressives. it's going to get plenty worse.

 

[First]

Originally posted by: IGBT
..get used to it. the democrat party has been hijacked by eco-kooks and secular progressives. it's going to get plenty worse.

Good lord, you watch far too much Bill O'Reilly. :laugh:

 

[lupi]

Originally posted by: OrByte

Originally posted by: RY62

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: RY62

Or...Just because extremists pander to the majority for a few months doesn't make them not extremist.

In most cases I would agree with you. In Obama's case, there isn't enough history to say for sure which is true.

Do you consider Hillary an extremist? Their platforms are pretty much identical.

On some issues, yes. I tend to agree more with the ideas of DLC. The whole health care thing was kind of extreme. Still, if the government were to get involved, I'd prefer her plan over Obama's.

The biggest difference is that Senator Clinton has a known history. I can guess, with some degree of certainty, where she'll stand on most issues. I couldn't begin to guess where Obama will end up on most issues.

try reading his website..I think its pretty clear and user friendly.

Or

ontheissues.org. They did most of the homework for you.

You mean his website that has had some items changed/deleted or left untouched and he just stumps with material in opposition to those points?

 

[Jhhnn]

Lemme sum up the OP's position-

He somewhat realizes that the current batch of Repubs and their overpaid talking head sycophants are lying, cheating, stealing charlatans and conmen of the worst sort, yet somehow finds a way to believe them when they label the opposition as "Left" "Leftist" "eco-kooks" and "extremists"... We have extreme right-wingers masquerading as "centrists", raving about "leftists" (anybody who's not them) when there really is no "Left" in American politics. Real Leftists would label Obama as as a milquetoast apologist for Capitalism...

Basically, the OP and others like him are ready for 4 more years of the same reach-around because he's been conditioned to like it, and to trust the ravings coming out of his radio... Pavlov would be proud.

 

[RY62]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Lemme sum up the OP's position-

He somewhat realizes that the current batch of Repubs and their overpaid talking head sycophants are lying, cheating, stealing charlatans and conmen of the worst sort, yet somehow finds a way to believe them when they label the opposition as "Left" "Leftist" "eco-kooks" and "extremists"... We have extreme right-wingers masquerading as "centrists", raving about "leftists" (anybody who's not them) when there really is no "Left" in American politics. Real Leftists would label Obama as as a milquetoast apologist for Capitalism...
Basically, the OP and others like him are ready for 4 more years of the same reach-around because he's been conditioned to like it, and to trust the ravings coming out of his radio... Pavlov would be proud.

Most of the discussion these days is about American politics. When we declare our positions (left, right, or center) it is in relation to American politics.

From your posts, I would say that you are extreme left, that you see the DLC as the Republican wing of the Democrat party and its members are extreme right-wingers. Fortunately, most Americans don't see things this way. From the perspective of American politics, Obama is far left and is currently pandering to the center.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: RY62

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Lemme sum up the OP's position-

He somewhat realizes that the current batch of Repubs and their overpaid talking head sycophants are lying, cheating, stealing charlatans and conmen of the worst sort, yet somehow finds a way to believe them when they label the opposition as "Left" "Leftist" "eco-kooks" and "extremists"... We have extreme right-wingers masquerading as "centrists", raving about "leftists" (anybody who's not them) when there really is no "Left" in American politics. Real Leftists would label Obama as as a milquetoast apologist for Capitalism...
Basically, the OP and others like him are ready for 4 more years of the same reach-around because he's been conditioned to like it, and to trust the ravings coming out of his radio... Pavlov would be proud.

Most of the discussion these days is about American politics. When we declare our positions (left, right, or center) it is in relation to American politics.

From your posts, I would say that you are extreme left, that you see the DLC as the Republican wing of the Democrat party and its members are extreme right-wingers. Fortunately, most Americans don't see things this way. From the perspective of American politics, Obama is far left and is currently pandering to the center.

Didn't we just talk about this? Obama is not far left any more than Hillary is far left. They are all centrists. If you want leftists in America, look at Nancy Pelosi, Kucinich, etc. They are leftists and they are in American politics.

You're just falling for the same BS that the Republicans push every election cycle. You do realize that if Hillary had won the nomination they would be saying the EXACT same thing about her, right? How true would it have been then?

 

[Nebor]

Yup, leave it to the dems to put up a black, Muslim, American-flag hating left wing extremist to lose what should have been the easiest election ever.

 

[db]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Lemme sum up the OP's position-

He somewhat realizes that the current batch of Repubs and their overpaid talking head sycophants are lying, cheating, stealing charlatans and conmen of the worst sort, yet somehow finds a way to believe them when they label the opposition as "Left" "Leftist" "eco-kooks" and "extremists"... We have extreme right-wingers masquerading as "centrists", raving about "leftists" (anybody who's not them) when there really is no "Left" in American politics. Real Leftists would label Obama as as a milquetoast apologist for Capitalism...

Basically, the OP and others like him are ready for 4 more years of the same reach-around because he's been conditioned to like it, and to trust the ravings coming out of his radio... Pavlov would be proud.

It's true. For some reason, otherwise smart people won't think for themselves ("b/c politics is HARD!") and instead believe their radio talk heroes, mindlessly repeating their talking points.

Clue: the power behind the far right doesn't give a sh*t about you except to get your vote.
You pay the taxes they don't have to. You do what they tell you. You are their bitch.

 

[db]

Originally posted by: Nebor
Yup, leave it to the dems to put up a black, Muslim, American-flag hating left wing extremist to lose what should have been the easiest election ever.

Actually he's a Christian who loves America
and wants to make it a level playing field
for all of us, not the elite few who are currently in power.

 

[RY62]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: RY62

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Lemme sum up the OP's position-

He somewhat realizes that the current batch of Repubs and their overpaid talking head sycophants are lying, cheating, stealing charlatans and conmen of the worst sort, yet somehow finds a way to believe them when they label the opposition as "Left" "Leftist" "eco-kooks" and "extremists"... We have extreme right-wingers masquerading as "centrists", raving about "leftists" (anybody who's not them) when there really is no "Left" in American politics. Real Leftists would label Obama as as a milquetoast apologist for Capitalism...
Basically, the OP and others like him are ready for 4 more years of the same reach-around because he's been conditioned to like it, and to trust the ravings coming out of his radio... Pavlov would be proud.

Most of the discussion these days is about American politics. When we declare our positions (left, right, or center) it is in relation to American politics.

From your posts, I would say that you are extreme left, that you see the DLC as the Republican wing of the Democrat party and its members are extreme right-wingers. Fortunately, most Americans don't see things this way. From the perspective of American politics, Obama is far left and is currently pandering to the center.

Didn't we just talk about this? Obama is not far left any more than Hillary is far left. They are all centrists. If you want leftists in America, look at Nancy Pelosi, Kucinich, etc. They are leftists and they are in American politics.

You're just falling for the same BS that the Republicans push every election cycle. You do realize that if Hillary had won the nomination they would be saying the EXACT same thing about her, right? How true would it have been then?

Yeah, we did just talk about this. And you're still not getting it.

At this time, we can only "hope" that Obama is not far left any more than Hillary is far left. There's no history to say for sure where he is. For all I know, he could be left of Pelosi. We have him left in the primary and center in the GE. Maybe he's really left. Maybe he's really centrist. Maybe both perceptions are false and he'll be something as yet unknown.

I'm sure the Republicans would have said the exact same thing about Senator Clinton and some of the things they'd say would probably be true. At least we know her long time positions well enough to decide for ourselves.

 

[ElFenix]

all i know is that i just discovered that barry obama's social security plan isn't a plan at all.

 

[db]

Originally posted by: ElFenix
all i know is that i just discovered that barry obama's social security plan isn't a plan at all.

Please explain how it compares to our current system.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: db

Originally posted by: ElFenix
all i know is that i just discovered that barry obama's social security plan isn't a plan at all.

Please explain how it compares to our current system.

the only change barry has proposed to SS is an added tax on incomes (employment, i guess) over 250,000.

the trick is that, as proposed, it wouldn't be in place for another 10 years from now. even at his most optimistic that's a year after barry isn't president anymore. unless he's thinking of getting rid of an amendment.

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Lemme sum up the OP's position-

He somewhat realizes that the current batch of Repubs and their overpaid talking head sycophants are lying, cheating, stealing charlatans and conmen of the worst sort, yet somehow finds a way to believe them when they label the opposition as "Left" "Leftist" "eco-kooks" and "extremists"...
-snip-

Ummm.. You do realize that the "left" thingy is based on a study of his voting record and is not a fabrication of Rush et al.

I realize such *studies* are inherently subjective (of course, if this study upheld the left's view I'm sure I'd lambasted for mentioning that it's subjective), but AFAIK there are only two. One has Obama rated #1, the other has him rated #10 (IIRC).

I've read some critiques on the study rating him #1. While no one thinks it's perfect, no one can really claim that there's any other better method. It was also noted that Obama 's rating was higher in '07 than '06 due to some votes he missed that would have likely given him a lower ranking. I wish someone would check out those missed votes and try to determine if they were missed *on purpose* because he was campaigning in the primaries and try to please the Dem hard core types. I.e, he may brought the ranking upon himself as a consequence of preparing for the primary.

Now that he's running to the middle in the gen election (e.g., voted for FISA), I bet his '08 ranking will put him much lower.

I think the above is a better explaination of why the Dem nominee seems to have a high lefty ranking every election than the vast right-wing conspiracy spin stuff some of you are claiming.

Fern

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: db

Originally posted by: ElFenix
all i know is that i just discovered that barry obama's social security plan isn't a plan at all.

Please explain how it compares to our current system.

the only change barry has proposed to SS is an added tax on incomes (employment, i guess) over 250,000.

the trick is that, as proposed, it wouldn't be in place for another 10 years from now. even at his most optimistic that's a year after barry isn't president anymore. unless he's thinking of getting rid of an amendment.

No one wants to toy with SS. It's the sacred cow in US politics. Even Bush did little more than posturing when it came to his SS plan.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Lemme sum up the OP's position-

He somewhat realizes that the current batch of Repubs and their overpaid talking head sycophants are lying, cheating, stealing charlatans and conmen of the worst sort, yet somehow finds a way to believe them when they label the opposition as "Left" "Leftist" "eco-kooks" and "extremists"...
-snip-

Ummm.. You do realize that the "left" thingy is based on a study of his voting record and is not a fabrication of Rush et al.

I realize such *studies* are inherently subjective (of course, if this study upheld the left's view I'm sure I'd lambasted for mentioning that it's subjective), but AFAIK there are only two. One has Obama rated #1, the other has him rated #10 (IIRC).

I've read some critiques on the study rating him #1. While no one thinks it's perfect, no one can really claim that there's any other better method. It was also noted that Obama 's rating was higher in '07 than '06 due to some votes he missed that would have likely given him a lower ranking. I wish someone would check out those missed votes and try to determine if they were missed *on purpose* because he was campaigning in the primaries and try to please the Dem hard core types. I.e, he may brought the ranking upon himself as a consequence of preparing for the primary.

Now that he's running to the middle in the gen election (e.g., voted for FISA), I bet his '08 ranking will put him much lower.

I think the above is a better explaination of why the Dem nominee seems to have a high lefty ranking every election than the vast right-wing conspiracy spin stuff some of you are claiming.

Fern

The problem with that study, Fern, is that its subjectiveness was to consider 'liberal' and 'left' as the same things. And that is a complete fabrication of Rush et al.

And McCain hasn't even voted in the Senate since early this year, and there's little doubt that he missed a lot of votes on purpose, as he missed the stimulus vote.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: RY62

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: RY62

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Lemme sum up the OP's position-

He somewhat realizes that the current batch of Repubs and their overpaid talking head sycophants are lying, cheating, stealing charlatans and conmen of the worst sort, yet somehow finds a way to believe them when they label the opposition as "Left" "Leftist" "eco-kooks" and "extremists"... We have extreme right-wingers masquerading as "centrists", raving about "leftists" (anybody who's not them) when there really is no "Left" in American politics. Real Leftists would label Obama as as a milquetoast apologist for Capitalism...
Basically, the OP and others like him are ready for 4 more years of the same reach-around because he's been conditioned to like it, and to trust the ravings coming out of his radio... Pavlov would be proud.

Most of the discussion these days is about American politics. When we declare our positions (left, right, or center) it is in relation to American politics.

From your posts, I would say that you are extreme left, that you see the DLC as the Republican wing of the Democrat party and its members are extreme right-wingers. Fortunately, most Americans don't see things this way. From the perspective of American politics, Obama is far left and is currently pandering to the center.

Didn't we just talk about this? Obama is not far left any more than Hillary is far left. They are all centrists. If you want leftists in America, look at Nancy Pelosi, Kucinich, etc. They are leftists and they are in American politics.

You're just falling for the same BS that the Republicans push every election cycle. You do realize that if Hillary had won the nomination they would be saying the EXACT same thing about her, right? How true would it have been then?

Yeah, we did just talk about this. And you're still not getting it.

At this time, we can only "hope" that Obama is not far left any more than Hillary is far left. There's no history to say for sure where he is. For all I know, he could be left of Pelosi. We have him left in the primary and center in the GE. Maybe he's really left. Maybe he's really centrist. Maybe both perceptions are false and he'll be something as yet unknown.

I'm sure the Republicans would have said the exact same thing about Senator Clinton and some of the things they'd say would probably be true. At least we know her long time positions well enough to decide for ourselves.

So you're saying that you don't know what his positions are in one breath, and then in the next you are declaring him on the 'far left' of American politics. See the problem?

 

[Jhhnn]

Originally posted by: RY62

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Lemme sum up the OP's position-

He somewhat realizes that the current batch of Repubs and their overpaid talking head sycophants are lying, cheating, stealing charlatans and conmen of the worst sort, yet somehow finds a way to believe them when they label the opposition as "Left" "Leftist" "eco-kooks" and "extremists"... We have extreme right-wingers masquerading as "centrists", raving about "leftists" (anybody who's not them) when there really is no "Left" in American politics. Real Leftists would label Obama as as a milquetoast apologist for Capitalism...
Basically, the OP and others like him are ready for 4 more years of the same reach-around because he's been conditioned to like it, and to trust the ravings coming out of his radio... Pavlov would be proud.

Most of the discussion these days is about American politics. When we declare our positions (left, right, or center) it is in relation to American politics.

From your posts, I would say that you are extreme left, that you see the DLC as the Republican wing of the Democrat party and its members are extreme right-wingers. Fortunately, most Americans don't see things this way. From the perspective of American politics, Obama is far left and is currently pandering to the center.

In other words, you agree with the Rightwing's redefinition of the political spectrum, which makes your supposed heroine, Hillary Clinton, a "Leftist" just as much as Obama... given the overlap and similarity of their stated positions on the issues...

Tell me how that's not accurate, how the minor differences mean one is a "Leftist" and the other is not... Explain to me how a non-"Leftist" is now stumping strongly for a "Leftist"- Hillary for Obama...

Or are you just snakebit by poisonous rightwing labelling of anybody who's not them as "Leftist"? Leftist as compared to Mao? Castro? Cesar Chavez? How about somebody a little more moderate, like Segolene Royal? Maybe some of our own historical Leftists, like Eugene Debs?

You really have no idea of what you're talking about, nor do the usual dittoheads involved in this thread, so just quit it. You wouldn't know a real Leftist from your left foot.

 

[First]

I would argue that McCain is clearly more a centrist than Obama, whose record on crossing the aisle is far less impressive (nearly non-existent, actually), while McCain has stuck his nose out on hot button issues. And while being anti-Iraq war, as a D or R, wasn't popular before the war in 2002, fact is that it was much more acceptable to be anti-war as a Dem than as an R at that time. McCain had far more to lose with his base with the McCain-Kennedy bill last summer than anything Obama has ever experienced.

That said, you'd have to be braindead not to see why this election is relatively close (but will still go to Obama barring unforeseen surprise circumstances); and that's because McCain's maverick persona is still alive and well, with everyone knowing he will cross party lines to get things done. That's why he has powerful support from Independents and it's ultimately why this won't be a blowout like it would have been had Guiliani or Romney gotten the nod. Short of McCain's hawkish stance on Iraq and his horrid anti-gay voting record, he really is not that bad a candidate, plain and simple.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: fisheerman
I just don't understand how the dem party can be blowing this election with such a poor choice in candidate. I'm not politically affiliated and always vote for the best candidate.

People that I know (as well as I) want change from the current repub party but will never vote for such a left winger as obama.

I just can't believe with the current approval rating in the repubs and people looking for alternatives that this race is even close.

Know it looks like they are going to blow it again

new polls

You sound very confused to me.

Not only on the issue that 'change' from the current horrible regime is a left-wing leader, but also that Obama is not a left-wing leader as you say. He's very 'centrist'.

IMO it's the voters like you who are part of the problem, self-described 'not political', i.e., not informed, and ruling out left-wing leaders for no good reason.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: fisheerman

actually i am as middle as they get.
i want to be left alone

From what? Who is the bogeyman under your bed, chasing you in black helicoptors?

keep as much of my hard earned money as possible

You're against government programs that are good investments for the nation? That make the nation greater? That are morally compelling at helping the weak and needy?

Oh, you are for some programs? You're not for 'keeping as much of your money as possible' then - and you should not be.

If you say you want to keep as much of your money as possible, does that mean you want to increase the taxes on the most wealthy, which can lower your taxes and debt?

what two people do in there own time ( and with who) is there business and what a women wants to do with her body is her business.

To play devil's advocate, then, you're in favor of legalizing crack and heroin and meth no matter how much the use skyrockets and addicts increase the crime rate?

You're in favor of letting women beat and kill their children (remember, the pro-life crowd doesn't consider a fetus the woman's body, but the fetus's body inside the woman).

 

[quest55720]

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: fisheerman
I just don't understand how the dem party can be blowing this election with such a poor choice in candidate. I'm not politically affiliated and always vote for the best candidate.

People that I know (as well as I) want change from the current repub party but will never vote for such a left winger as obama.

I just can't believe with the current approval rating in the repubs and people looking for alternatives that this race is even close.

Know it looks like they are going to blow it again

new polls

You sound very confused to me.

Not only on the issue that 'change' from the current horrible regime is a left-wing leader, but also that Obama is not a left-wing leader as you say. He's very 'centrist'.

IMO it's the voters like you who are part of the problem, self-described 'not political', i.e., not informed, and ruling out left-wing leaders for no good reason.

I love when you obama people claim he is a centrist. Find me all these issues he crossed the isle and joined the republicans to get something done. A single vote on FISA does not make him a centrist. McCain has sure gone against his party plenty and sometimes at a great cost.