How come in Christianity....

[StageLeft]

My words speak for themselves, as do yours.

Finally something we can both agree on.

 

[Flyermax2k3]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

My words speak for themselves, as do yours.

Finally something we can both agree on.

Oh noes!!! Is that 4 horsemen I see?

 

[azazyel]

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3

Originally posted by: azazyel

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3
My beliefs are based on the word of G-d in it's entirety (what is available to us, anyway). I don't follow any particular religion or sect, nor do I "blend beliefs from various religions". I believe the word of G-d is universal, and that it is applicable to all mankind (including modern day man).
Concerning the thoughts of any man, whether he be "religious" or scholarly or what have you: G-d says to let no man deceive nor to let any man guide your beliefs. This is not to say that no one's opinion is valid, simply to take everything with a grain of salt.

So, you believe in the book of Morman and the Koran?

Nope. The Quran has nothing to do with G-d, IMHO. I've never read the Book of Mormon, but I doubt it's validity simply because of the story of it's origin. Of course, only Joseph Smith and G-d really know if it's real or not

So, let me clarify, you believe the torah and the bible are the word of god. Yet, you have come to this belief on your own volition because "G-d says to let no man deceive nor to let any man guide your beliefs." So, in your youth you read both these books and did some historical research and had an epiphany showing you these were the true books? The reason I say this is because anyone I know who wasn't taught about the bible would just look at it as another book. But if you were not guided towards the bible then how did you know that it was the word of god? If just seems strange that other religions of the world, some of which teach very similar ideals were not incorporated into your beliefs. Even one that is said to be descended from Abraham.

 

[moonshinemadness]

Going along the theme of closed minded religions, when i was at school (I went to a catholic school, although im not a catholic) I was disturbed by the fact that our RE teachers would not acknowledge ANY other religion, including variants of the Christian base. The most Acknowledgement we got was a single lesson on "World Religions" 10 lines on judaism, Christian-(Methodist, C of E and a few others), Hinduism and Buddist.
I personally swing more to the pagan beliefs (Although i do not practice any particular religion) and despite the fact that alot of Christianity stems from Pagan beliefs (IMO) we didnt touch on the subject. Granted this was a catholic school but it was the same in the council run school. Surely this is a worryingly biased teaching?

Mikee

 

[azazyel]

Oh, well I am going home. Hope everyone has a great night. I will check in next am.

 

[Riprorin]

Originally posted by: xEDIT409
How come in Christianity, they believe that if one is not Christian or if they do not follow Jesus... something along those lines... they will go to hell?

I'm in a World Religions class, and today, we had a Minister come in as a guest speaker. When he said this, I asked him,

"Well sir, I'm Hindu, and so is my entire family. Back in India, my grandparents live in a remote agricultural village where Christianity or any other relgion except Hinduism and maybe Islam, don't exist. My grandparents are the nicest people I have ever met. They both used to be elementary teachers, they've contributed much of their time and money to their community, and overall, they're very good people. So which leads to my question... are they going to hell because they don't even know Christianity is a religon?

His response: "I'm very sorry to say, but, yes, they will be going to hell"

My reaction: :disgust: +

+ :Q + (A mix of those)

I think that if people honestly look at themselves versus the 10 commandments, they aren't as good as they think they are.

 

[LAUST]

Most of those commandments are really silly in todays civilization too. Lots of combo's of the same thing too. should have only been 4 or 5 tops

 

[daniel1113]

Originally posted by: moonshinemadness
Going along the theme of closed minded religions, when i was at school (I went to a catholic school, although im not a catholic) I was disturbed by the fact that our RE teachers would not acknowledge ANY other religion, including variants of the Christian base. The most Acknowledgement we got was a single lesson on "World Religions" 10 lines on judaism, Christian-(Methodist, C of E and a few others), Hinduism and Buddist.
I personally swing more to the pagan beliefs (Although i do not practice any particular religion) and despite the fact that alot of Christianity stems from Pagan beliefs (IMO) we didnt touch on the subject. Granted this was a catholic school but it was the same in the council run school. Surely this is a worryingly biased teaching?

Mikee

Um... then don't go to a catholic school... pretty simple.

It's like going to a technical institute and then complaining that you weren't taught how to be a Broadway actor...

 

[tantos]

one has to admit that the principles of Christianity are something for most everyone to aspire to...

As if the principles of any other religion isn't just as great? Christianity does not make a person
any more moralistic than any other person. I once had a girl in English class say "Even if you weren't
Christian, you should have morals" as if Christianity had a monopoly on morals.

 

[Rayden]

Originally posted by: MAME
how come on atot.......

50% of threads about about religion?

not only that 90% are Christian bashing or Christians defending themselves. I think about 0.001% are bashing other religions, Muslims, Hindus, Mormons... It's only ok to bash Christians.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Eli
Sick and sad, that's my reaction.

Close minded, simple minded fools, they are. They can't see the forest for the trees.

They don't realize their religion is no different or better than the other, when it comes down to it. Religion is a way to teach people values, morals and history. Unfortunately, it is human nature to distort and use such things for personal or political advantages.

Like I've said in other threads...

Some Muslims lead happy lives, some do not. Some Christians lead happy lives, some do not. Some Jews lead happy lives, some do not. Some Hindus lead happy lives, some do not. Some Atheists lead happy lives, some do not. Some Buddhists lead happy lives, some do not. Some Agnostics lead happy lives, some do not.

My point is that it's your choice.

If you need faith to be happy, that is fine and there is nothing wrong with that. You must, however, practice what you preach and realize that everybody is not like you. Not everybody is content accepting things as fact through nothing more than word of mouth, or text in a book. And again, there is nothing wrong with that. It is a sign of a thinking mind.

I have found that I do not need faith in intangible beings or objects to be happy. To further explain, I used to be very religious. As in, I believed in God, Jesus, that all things good came through him, etc, etc, etc. I believed this because it was taught to me by my Dad.

I don't believe that anymore primarily because.. I see how religion is used as a crutch by people to explain things they either do not really care about or do not wish to think about beyond a simple, usually mystical explination. I see how many billions of people there are in the world, and I realize that there is no special person; we're all the same regardless of our religion, race, etc. The same thing happens to all of us. We are born, we live our lives, and we die. What you make of it is up to you. If you are a happy, content person when you die, good job. If you are not, I am sorry.

As for Heaven and Hell.. I think the biggest misconception is that they are some sort of physical places. I find that amusing actually, it must be human nature to "physicalize" inheirently mystical things.. anyway..

The kingdom of heaven is within you, no? Therefor, so is hell. All that is to say is that you create your own heaven or hell. Again, it's up to you.

Just some thoughts...

Agree totally.

There is a Club atmosphere surrounding "Christianity"(other religions as well) that creates its' own myopic view of the World amongst its' membership. It is/was that same limited Worldview that segregated Europeans from "Barbarians"/"Pagans"/"Savages" and even separated Europeans from themselves(Britain vs France for eg.), they were the "Enlightened" going forth to "Enlighten" those in the darkness. It mattered not what their actions were, for "God" was on their side and those outside of "Christianity" were the pawns of Satan.

The problem here has little to do with Jesus or even the Bible, it is those claiming to be the "True Followers" of either/both. Those who have convinced themselves of being part of a greater thing, yet entirely missing the point of what their source of belief was saying. The end result is the repetitive use of mantra(s) instead of the life changing action, the creation of a fantasy world instead of the living in the Real world. If Jesus had come to give people the opportunity to live in an invisible city in the sky, why would he carry on so much about helping one's fellowman? Why would this help involve providing for Physical Needs above all else?

The answer is quite simple really, Heaven and Hell don't exist for a person after they die physically. Heaven and Hell exist for those Physically alive, not necessarily for the individual as you suggest(though that's certainly true for many), but for future generations. IOW, the whole point to Jesus Message is for those alive now to make life better for their children. In turn, those children make life better for their children and so on. Eventually, "Heaven" will exist or, if people fail, "Hell" will exist.

 

[Czesia]

Originally posted by: kranky
I believe that God knows best what to do about people who have never heard the Gospel, and it's not up to me to condemn anyone.

I do not believe that the "christian" God would persecute someone for something that they did not know. Unfortunately, I think that what that minister told your class was very ignorant on his part.

Don't believe that what you hear from one person is representative of all christians, because peoples' own personal beliefs will often come out in their religious convictions.

 

[Berkut]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Berkut

Originally posted by: Vic
Second, what is death to God? From His perspective, it could be seen as a release from the burden of the toiling existence on earth. We are His creations - He giveth and He taketh away.

Exactly, this is why it is ok to commit genocide, as long as God commands it!

Like he commanded Joshua to butcher every man, woman, and child in the city he conquered.

And like he commanded Jim Jones to have his followers drink the Special Kool-Ade (tm)

Twisting the words of another person into a form that they did not intend is a dishonesty of the worst sort. You show your true colors... begone.

Sorry, I do not generally leave on the request of anonymous internet posters.

Your lack of a meaningful response I shall simply presume to indicate that you lack the ability to respond meaningfully - but do not feel bad, my point is a logical land mine for most Xians. Better to stick your head in the sand and chat "Begone evil spirit!" than to, you know, think.

 

[fw3308]

Again let me preface this reply with that I am in no position to judge anyone. These comments stem from my personal beliefs. In the case of someones relatives who may live in a remote area and have never been exposed to any other religious influences other than what they have been raised with then only God can answer or decide there fate. However, if they are aware of Christianity and all that it entails and choose to follow there gods and religious beliefs then they have made a concious choice to not follow Christ and would ultimatley spend eternity in hell. The hard part with a lot of religions other than Christianity is that when someone chooses to make a change and leave old beliefs behind they risk being cut off from there physical family forever. Some might even deem them dead in there eyes. No one ever said that taking up your own personal cross and following Christ would be easy. But nothing in life worth having is ever easy. Also you have to remeber that many atrocities have been committed in the name of a lot of religions, especially Christianity. And many men who have committed these have been in publicly visible positions that have influenced many people to turn away. I am human and I make mistakes and fail every day. You have to look beyond men and there failings and look to the source to see the real answer. Read, study and seek your own soul for the answers. This book may help. It is by a journalist who set out to disprove Christ and his existence. The journalist's name is Lee Strobel and his book is titled "The Case for Christ".

 

[Athanasius]

Hello xEDIT409:

Regarding this quote:

How come in Christianity, they believe that if one is not Christian or if they do not follow Jesus... something along those lines... they will go to hell?

I am sorry the minister responded to you the way he did. But his view does not accurately represent historical Christianity, so please do not make his statement a fundamental part of your assessment of the Christian religion.

The historical standard regarding judgment is that individuals are evaluated based on how they respond to the truth from God that they have, not how they respond to some truth that they don't have.

I don't post often, but I have a well-deserved reputation for lengthy posts, so I will try keep this one shorter. Consider this statement from Romans 2:7-8 of the Christian New Testament:

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, he [God] will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

If you are interested, I could give you a long list of biblical passages and early Christian writers (first three centuries C.E.) who do not take the view taken by this minsiter who spoke in your class.

Christian doctrine teaches that there is a light from God that, to varying degrees, enlightens every man. We all have some residue of God's light within us; as Christian teaching declares, we are all "created in the image of God." Christian teaching also declares that this "light" from God is not just an impersonal "divine spark." It is personal, it is eternally generated from God the Father, and it is in fact God. That Light is the "Logos" or "Word" of God. See the Gospel of John 1:1-9.

Christian teaching also declares that this personal light, eternally with and generated from the Eternal God, became joined (the English theological term is "incarnated") with one particular human at one particular point in time at that one individual's moment of conception in the womb of his mother. That human was Jesus of Nazareth. See John 1:14-18.

Hence Jesus of Nazareth can say, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." But that has always been the case, even before the Word was incarnate in Jesus of Nazareth. No one has ever come to God but by means of the Logos/Word/Light of God that God has first placed within him and exposed him to.

This the Church had originally taught. And the Church was optimistic about some individuals that lay outside the Christian tradition but seemed to sincerely respond to God's light to the degree that such light had been manifested to them in their consciousness. Hence the early Church was optimistic about such "pagans" as Heraclitus, Plato, Socrates, etc. If the early Church had known of Lao-Tse, Confucius, or some individuals in the Hindu tradition, who can say what they would have thought?

This does not change the overall biblical position that mankind is fatally flawed. Mankind has a spiritual malignancy that it cannot overcome by its own efforts. It needs God's Grace. It needs an infusion of divine chemotherapy, and that chemotherapy is the Word of God. But it is the Word that one has, not the Word one doesn't have. But that Word is filtered through culture, nature, nurture, and even the particular limitations of consciousness that develop through singular attachment to one language.

God sees past all of that. He sees what the Bible calls "the heart" and judges the individual based on their heart response to the Word they have, not their impossibility of responding to a Word they don't have. And it is not my place to judge another man; especially one I have never met. And especially if I base that judgment on a shallow understanding of Christian doctrine that seems particularly prevalent in some circles of Protestant Christianity in America in the 21st Century.

BTW, I am not Roman Catholic, so I am not critiquing Protestantism as a prelude to a Roman Catholic-Protestant debate.

If you want more info, I will gladly respond as time permits.

 

[sxr7171]

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3

Originally posted by: Berkut
The way to really get them going is to follow that up with

"Well, that is unfortunate. What about 'innocents', such as they are? Does an infant who dies in childbirth go to hell? One who dies at 6 months? 6 years? What is the dividing line, if there is one? If there is no dividing line, i.e. all that are not Christian go to hell then surely the Christian god is a monster, since he sends infants to eternal torture while not giving them an opportunity to be saved."

Typically you get some version of "God does not punish innocents, they go to limbo or straight to heaven or something along those lines. Of course, the response to that then is "Then shouldn't we kill all infnats before they get the opportunity to reject your God? Wouldn't it be better for an infant to die and be saved rather than live and risk the likelihood that they will not accept Christ?"

Fun with Xians!

Biblically speaking, anyone under the age of 20 is not considered to be an adult, and is, therefore, still an innocent.

They told me in religion class that the age was considered 7 years when people are responsible for their own actions.

 

[Brutuskend]

Originally posted by: xEDIT409
How come in Christianity, they believe that if one is not Christian or if they do not follow Jesus... something along those lines... they will go to hell?

I'm in a World Religions class, and today, we had a Minister come in as a guest speaker. When he said this, I asked him,

"Well sir, I'm Hindu, and so is my entire family. Back in India, my grandparents live in a remote agricultural village where Christianity or any other relgion except Hinduism and maybe Islam, don't exist. My grandparents are the nicest people I have ever met. They both used to be elementary teachers, they've contributed much of their time and money to their community, and overall, they're very good people. So which leads to my question... are they going to hell because they don't even know Christianity is a religon?

His response: "I'm very sorry to say, but, yes, they will be going to hell"

My reaction: :disgust: +

+ :Q + (A mix of those)

Not true.

There is a passage in the bible that states if you were never told about Christianity, the rules don't apply.

If you believe in that sort of thing.

 

[amcdonald]

Correct me if I'm wrong , but I think the bible says that if you don't hear the gospel, you are judged under the laws of the old testament...
again, correct me if I'm wrong. I'll go try to find a verse supporting that statement.

Edit: Okay, read romans 2:1-16 and see what you get out of it... I think thats your answer more or less.

 

[busmaster11]

Originally posted by: Athanasius
Hello xEDIT409:

Regarding this quote:

How come in Christianity, they believe that if one is not Christian or if they do not follow Jesus... something along those lines... they will go to hell?

I am sorry the minister responded to you the way he did. But his view does not accurately represent historical Christianity, so please do not make his statement a fundamental part of your assessment of the Christian religion.

The historical standard regarding judgment is that individuals are evaluated based on how they respond to the truth from God that they have, not how they respond to some truth that they don't have.

I don't post often, but I have a well-deserved reputation for lengthy posts, so I will try keep this one shorter. Consider this statement from Romans 2:7-8 of the Christian New Testament:

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, he [God] will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

I have a feeling I'll agree with just about everything you say. But I struggle with this part myself. The context of Romans 2, out of which the quote was taken out of, has to do with enciuraging the reader to not judge because God is kind and forgiving to everyone, and He sets the Ultimate example. While I do feel personally, that God instills some measure of moral goodness in all of us, I believe those who have refused a genuine opportunity to know Christ will go to hell. Those who never had such an opportunity - the Bible doesn't say - or, when quoted out of context, will seem contradictory.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: sxr7171

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3

Originally posted by: Berkut
The way to really get them going is to follow that up with

"Well, that is unfortunate. What about 'innocents', such as they are? Does an infant who dies in childbirth go to hell? One who dies at 6 months? 6 years? What is the dividing line, if there is one? If there is no dividing line, i.e. all that are not Christian go to hell then surely the Christian god is a monster, since he sends infants to eternal torture while not giving them an opportunity to be saved."

Typically you get some version of "God does not punish innocents, they go to limbo or straight to heaven or something along those lines. Of course, the response to that then is "Then shouldn't we kill all infnats before they get the opportunity to reject your God? Wouldn't it be better for an infant to die and be saved rather than live and risk the likelihood that they will not accept Christ?"

Fun with Xians!

Biblically speaking, anyone under the age of 20 is not considered to be an adult, and is, therefore, still an innocent.

They told me in religion class that the age was considered 7 years when people are responsible for their own actions.

It is my limited understanding that for Jews the age is approx 13 years old. That makes sense, since it is about the age where child bearing becomes possible. The Bar/Bat Mitzvah is the ceremonial part of the transition. These days it seems to have lost some of its' original meaning(as far as I can tell), for most Jews 18 seems to be the current age, though the Mitzvah's are still celebrated at age 13.

 

[SuPrEIVIE]

maybe some of you have heard of this play "The Crucible" for those that haven't have a look at it if you want great play that teaches morals and true courage

 

[alocurto]

ummm.... people suck. Live life the way u want. I'm goin with the odds are that when u die u are dead. Don't worry, u wont care.

 

[sxr7171]

DP

 

[sxr7171]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: sxr7171

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3

Originally posted by: Berkut
The way to really get them going is to follow that up with

"Well, that is unfortunate. What about 'innocents', such as they are? Does an infant who dies in childbirth go to hell? One who dies at 6 months? 6 years? What is the dividing line, if there is one? If there is no dividing line, i.e. all that are not Christian go to hell then surely the Christian god is a monster, since he sends infants to eternal torture while not giving them an opportunity to be saved."

Typically you get some version of "God does not punish innocents, they go to limbo or straight to heaven or something along those lines. Of course, the response to that then is "Then shouldn't we kill all infnats before they get the opportunity to reject your God? Wouldn't it be better for an infant to die and be saved rather than live and risk the likelihood that they will not accept Christ?"

Fun with Xians!

Biblically speaking, anyone under the age of 20 is not considered to be an adult, and is, therefore, still an innocent.

They told me in religion class that the age was considered 7 years when people are responsible for their own actions.

It is my limited understanding that for Jews the age is approx 13 years old. That makes sense, since it is about the age where child bearing becomes possible. The Bar/Bat Mitzvah is the ceremonial part of the transition. These days it seems to have lost some of its' original meaning(as far as I can tell), for most Jews 18 seems to be the current age, though the Mitzvah's are still celebrated at age 13.

That makes more sense in this context. I remember that in our school people were getting Confirmation in 6th grade or age 12. I guess we were told that 7 is the age because they start confessions at that age.

 

[Flyermax2k3]

Originally posted by: azazyel

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3

Originally posted by: azazyel

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3
My beliefs are based on the word of G-d in it's entirety (what is available to us, anyway). I don't follow any particular religion or sect, nor do I "blend beliefs from various religions". I believe the word of G-d is universal, and that it is applicable to all mankind (including modern day man).
Concerning the thoughts of any man, whether he be "religious" or scholarly or what have you: G-d says to let no man deceive nor to let any man guide your beliefs. This is not to say that no one's opinion is valid, simply to take everything with a grain of salt.

So, you believe in the book of Morman and the Koran?

Nope. The Quran has nothing to do with G-d, IMHO. I've never read the Book of Mormon, but I doubt it's validity simply because of the story of it's origin. Of course, only Joseph Smith and G-d really know if it's real or not

So, let me clarify, you believe the torah and the bible are the word of god. Yet, you have come to this belief on your own volition because "G-d says to let no man deceive nor to let any man guide your beliefs." So, in your youth you read both these books and did some historical research and had an epiphany showing you these were the true books? The reason I say this is because anyone I know who wasn't taught about the bible would just look at it as another book. But if you were not guided towards the bible then how did you know that it was the word of god? If just seems strange that other religions of the world, some of which teach very similar ideals were not incorporated into your beliefs. Even one that is said to be descended from Abraham.

The only response I can offer you (albeit late) is that sometimes, man just has to take things on faith.
RE: other religions: something about picking parts of one religion and mixing it with parts of others just doesn't seem right to me. Call me closed-minded, that's fine.