How come mental math is so hard?

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zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,803
29,553
146
my bandwidth tends to be clogged with thoughts of boobies and beer; significant exposure to the latter having severely compromised my cache-dumping ability.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,803
29,553
146
Wow... impressive! I also have used the method you mentioned when doing multiplication and always wondered why they didn't teach it that way in school.

yeah, it was many years later when I started tutoring very young kids in simple math: multiplication, division, basic algebra, etc, that these methods starting coming to me.

I was always horrible at math--always. I'm still rather terrible at it. But when thinking of ways to try and explain these problems to kids, it jsut seemed easier to suggest that they think of large, whole numbers in tens, then deal with the rest of the numbers in steps as DrP describes.

I always felt stupid for not "getting" this much earlier in life, but I suppose part of it is that I was never trained to think this way early on and as I generally disliked math anyway, I never thought to approach it beyond my known protocol.
 

jagec

Lifer
Apr 30, 2004
24,442
6
81
Wow... impressive! I also have used the method you mentioned when doing multiplication and always wondered why they didn't teach it that way in school.

+1. Plus, with that way if you need to give an answer RIGHT NOW before you've finished doing the problem, you're already pretty close to the right value.

And exactly how does that make you smarter? What does the ability to do math on the fly actually gain you? Has practically 0 real world usage and benefits nothing to you other than your arrogance.

We like people like you. You end up getting fleeced by CC companies, car dealerships, and grocery stores, thus putting more money into circulation and stimulating the economy.

The "Dumb and proud" act is a little annoying, though.
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,218
4,446
136
I was listening to a radio program recently that got into certain aspects of how our brains work:

http://www.radiolab.org/2008/nov/17/

Go to about 4:40 and they talk about a study from way back in the 50s that tried to determine how much we could memorize in the short term. They found that it was around 7 digits, +/- 2 digits. Holding a lot of numbers in your head at once requires training. You can improve your ability to recall numbers in the short term but you have to use it constantly.

The interesting thing about the 7 +/- 2 number is that the units are arbitrary. Or more specifically, you can roll larger packets of information up into a single unit if you have a schema to use to hold that large packet.
For example, for many people the number 8675309 is a single unit, while a more randomly generated number like 4665423 must be stored as several smaller bits of information, and the size of those chunks of information tracks nicely with how experienced you are doing mental arithmetic.
 

Tweak155

Lifer
Sep 23, 2003
11,448
262
126
We like people like you. You end up getting fleeced by CC companies, car dealerships, and grocery stores, thus putting more money into circulation and stimulating the economy.

The "Dumb and proud" act is a little annoying, though.

And we hate people like you, ignorant with no clue as to what they're talking about, yet they keep talking.

I've yet to pay a single cent of interest on a credit card (nor any credit card fees), have a 2.75% interest rate on my mortgage and don't have a car payment on any of my 3 vehicles.

Keep on truckin' though.
 

Daishiki

Golden Member
Nov 9, 2001
1,943
36
91
It reminds me of the time when I went out to eat with coworkers. I was the last to get the receipt. While they were pulling out their phones to calculate tax and tip, I glanced at my items, then put down my money on the table first. One of the guys, who ordered the same things I did, took a look at how much I put down and said, "Yeah, that's what I was going to put down."

/asians
 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
49,606
166
111
www.slatebrookfarm.com
Hey now! The other reason being....you were taught math by lazy stupid Americans.

That last line was meant as a joke, but coming back to the thread now, I'm thinking, "ooops, I forgot the ."

But, you've stumbled upon a huge reason as well - in general elementary education teachers aren't that good at math. One of my friends attended a fairly well respected school in the area for education. He took the "math for el ed majors" course. One day, he showed me a test - "what grade level is this?" "I'm not positive, since they keep shuffling the curriculum around. But, I'd say it's right around 4th grade, give or take a year." "Guess how the students did. Not kids - the other kids in my class at <university>." "I don't know... just about everyone aced it, a couple people missed a question out of carelessness and rushing through it?"

Almost every one in his class failed the exam.
 

Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
13,923
2
81
Its the way our brain is wired. Some people with autism have their brains wired differently and can process raw numbers and images far better than the average person can.

Of course, there are tricks that you can apply, but in the end, they are just cheap tricks. They don't work to improve or grow neurons involved with number processing.
 

kyrax12

Platinum Member
May 21, 2010
2,416
2
81
Its the way our brain is wired. Some people with autism have their brains wired differently and can process raw numbers and images far better than the average person can.

Of course, there are tricks that you can apply, but in the end, they are just cheap tricks. They don't work to improve or grow neurons involved with number processing.

Can I work at improving mental math? Or is it just inherent.
 

exdeath

Lifer
Jan 29, 2004
13,679
10
81
Heh I just had to show someone today.

16 servings 140 calories per serving, total calories per box, GO!

1400 + half of that 700 is 2100 + another 140 = 2240

They about shit a brick when I had the answer instantly, they were still at 6 times 4 carry the 2 like they were taught in school...

I had the benefit of growing up a programmer since childhood so my brain is practically wired to do math like a CPU, eg: lots of short simple steps in parallel, breaking things into even powers or easy multiples and adding the odd remainder last, etc.
 
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jagec

Lifer
Apr 30, 2004
24,442
6
81
But, you've stumbled upon a huge reason as well - in general elementary education teachers aren't that good at math. One of my friends attended a fairly well respected school in the area for education. He took the "math for el ed majors" course. One day, he showed me a test - "what grade level is this?" "I'm not positive, since they keep shuffling the curriculum around. But, I'd say it's right around 4th grade, give or take a year." "Guess how the students did. Not kids - the other kids in my class at <university>." "I don't know... just about everyone aced it, a couple people missed a question out of carelessness and rushing through it?"

Almost every one in his class failed the exam.

Yup...early childhood education majors are just about the stupidest people in grad school.
 

skim milk

Diamond Member
Apr 8, 2003
5,784
1
0
I'm not a natural with mental math but got asked mental math questions (what is square root of 2250, what is 36x72, what is 625x625, etc) during the interview for my previous job. There are shortcuts that you can learn. I spent about a week practicing and learning it and got the offer
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
Other places would approach it like this: 30 times 50 = 1500. Easy to remember 1500. 4 times 50, add to the 1500. Now you're up to 1700. 7 times 30, add to 1700 is 1910. Just have to remember 1910. Lastly, 4 times 7, and add that to the 1910 = 1938.

I've done it that way for a long time. School never taught me, had to figure it out on my own. I'm trying to teach my daughter that sort of thing while she's young.
 

exdeath

Lifer
Jan 29, 2004
13,679
10
81
Can you improve over where you are now by working and exposing yourself more to it? Absolutely. Can you become this kid? No!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/...tistic-14-year-old-nobel-prize_n_3254920.html

Hehe kids are awesome.

It's all about passion.

My passion for computers and electronics as a child had me mastering assembly language and etching circuit boards before I was 10.

Most kids have no passion or desire to do anything except drool on themselves while they watch Dora the Explorer and Spongebob 6 hours a day. And you can look no further than the parents for the reason... most of the time.
 
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exdeath

Lifer
Jan 29, 2004
13,679
10
81
So you want them to do math in binary using logic gates?


If we are comparing a carry look ahead adder vs a ripple carry adder then yes exactly!

Most people attempt to do math in their head the way a crude straight forward and obvious ripple carry adder does, sequentially, right to left, 1 bit at a time in a very general process.

You know... carry the a add the b, times c, carry the d... blah blah blah too slow and too error prone and not compatible with human short term memory.
 
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Leros

Lifer
Jul 11, 2004
21,867
7
81
I'm assuming you were raised in the U.S. One reason it's hard to do is the algorithms that children are typically taught in this country for doing things like multiplication. For example, when multiplying 34 times 57, US children would multiply the 7 and 4 first, get 28, have to carry the two, multiply the 7 and 3, add the two. Then put a zero down to the right on the next line as a place holder, and multiply the 5 times the 4, carry the two, 5 times 3 and add the 2.

Other places would approach it like this: 30 times 50 = 1500. Easy to remember 1500. 4 times 50, add to the 1500. Now you're up to 1700. 7 times 30, add to 1700 is 1910. Just have to remember 1910. Lastly, 4 times 7, and add that to the 1910 = 1938.

In the first algorithm, it takes multiple steps to arrive at the first number and multiple steps to arrive at a 2nd number before you add them together. In the latter algorithm, you're keeping a running total while still doing one multiplication at a time.

Cue about middle school age. The brain has developed to the point where it can handle more abstract concepts (like variables.) Now we're teaching Algebra, and it takes a couple days of teaching before the kids get good at multiplying something like (2x+3) and (4x-5). Kids in other places think, "shit, this is what I've been doing for 4 years. This is nothing new." This, in part, explains some of the differences on standardized testing. Through, I think it's 4th or 5th grade, U.S. children compare quite favorably, then they fall way behind.

-----

Also, fucking calculators. If you had a little robot that carried absolutely everything for you, you never even had to lift up a glass to your mouth to drink, in a couple of years, you'd be asking, "why is it so hard to carry a bag of groceries." Without practice, you can't do arithmetic very quickly. The more often you use a calculator for simple arithmetic operations, the slower your brain gets at doing that mental arithmetic.

Further, if you don't have a calculator, you start learning tricks. 87 times 93? Why, that's just 8100 minus 9. Why? Because it's (90-3)(90+3); the product of conjugates which is 90²-9. Or, in a calculus class, faced with finding the area under a curve using the midpoint method (midpoint of the base of a rectangle determines the x-value at which you determine f(x) for the height of a rectangle). It's fairly common on those problems to have to find 6.5², 7.5², 8.5², etc.
6.5 squared: 6 squared (36) plus 6 = 42. Tack on a .25 to the end: 42.25
7.5 squared: 7 squared (49) plus 7 = 56. Tack on a .25 to the end: 56.25
8.5 squared: 8 squared (64) plus 8 = 72. Tack on a .25 to the end: 72.25
At which point you might see a pattern. "Hey, it goes up by 14, then 16, I'll bet the next one is 18 higher." Though the pattern might be a little harder to discern if f(x) is something like 2x²+x+5; but no more difficult to do in your head.

Why it works? Again with the algebra. (x + 0.5)(x + 0.5) = x² + x + .25
Note: if you did (10x + 5)(10x + 5), you get 100x²+100x+25. So, the pattern is the same without the decimal.

As your mind learns more of these tricks, you look absolutely amazing to people who can't do mental arithmetic. You might say, "but you're doing..." Doesn't matter - it's still mental arithmetic, it's just that with a fluency in Algebra, you have a lot more algorithms at your disposal. And, with practice (not relying on a calculator from 4th grade on), you get quicker and quicker at identifying which tricks work on which problems.

Fun problem: I'll get a class to give me digits of a 9 digit number. Once I have a lot of kids shouting out numbers, it's easy to be selective for the 2nd number to make it 142857143. I can multiply any 9 digit number times 142857143 faster than the students can type it into a calculator (only to find out that the display on the calculator isn't large enough. So, when they get a rounded number in scientific notation, we have to turn to a computer to verify my answer. But it's simple: I multiply by 142857143 indirectly. First I multiply the 9 digit number by 1000000001 (which just makes it an 18 digit number with the first 9 digits repeating. So, if the first 9 digits that the kids give me are 234897561, then the new number is 234897561234897561. Then, divide by 7. Long division - in your head. (omg, it's soooo hard, since you haven't done long division in your head in 20 years.)
7 goes into 23 3 times (write down the 3, mentally carry the 2; 7 goes into 23... )


So, in summary, why is mental math so hard for you? Because you're a lazy, stupid American.

Yeah... that's not in the state approve curriculum. We're going to need you to lecture out of this book and then give the students these worksheets. If you keep teaching non-approved material, we're going to fire you.
 

Tsavo

Platinum Member
Sep 29, 2009
2,645
37
91
Yeah... that's not in the state approve curriculum. We're going to need you to lecture out of this book and then give the students these worksheets. If you keep teaching non-approved material, we're going to fire you.

No little idgit left behind.

Just when I think education in this country can't get any worse, it gets worse.
 
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