How Did Anand Let This Get Published?

[Arachnotronic]

While I wouldn't have said it in the same way, the quality of the article as a whole simply wasn't up to par and the conclusion made it quite clear why. There are two points about it that really bug me.

1. It's a review of mobile Richland. What business exactly does commentary on desktop Haswell have in the conclusion? I'll agree that it's a perfectly valid complaint - the lack of competition allows Intel to focus its resources on the markets that matter and not have to worry about losing the performance halo. That said, it sure seems like everyone wants to pretend that Haswell would have been completely different from what it is and had a larger performance bump and overclocked better if AMD was still competitive... yeah, that's just wishful thinking.

2. On the actual subject matter of the review he actually does bring up a point that's all too often glossed over - the part being reviewed is the best that AMD has to offer and the lower end parts take pretty healthy hits in GPU performance... But just three paragraphs before he claims that "AMD continues to offer superior mobile graphics" because AMD's top of the line 35W A10-5750M beat out an ultrabook using Intel's 15W i7-4500U with GT2 graphics?!? From previous Anandtech reviews of Iris Pro and the Macbook air he has access to benchmark results for all of the included games (or most at least) running on 15W GT3, 47W GT3e, and 57W GT3e... but instead of including them he simply published with results from the 15W GT2 just to make AMD look better and be able to declare them the winner. How is that claim not a blatant lie?

Well said, Khato.

 

[mikk]

The reviewer is a joke. Maybe he don't like Haswell because it didn't match his expectation in the desktop segment but Haswell itself is way off from a joke. That's a ridiculous and polemic statement, a serious reviewer shouldn't use such a word. I can't take him serious.

 

[galego]

From the recent AMD A10 mobile APU review,

I am, however, forced to address a few elephants in the room that are getting glossed over. As consumers, we need AMD to succeed. Lack of competition is showing in a major way: desktop Haswell is a joke, Haswell's GT2 IGP is a minor improvement yet promises to be the most common one in Intel's lineup, and Intel seems to be planning to mostly coast on Haswell for two years while focusing on Atom's successor.

I'm sorry, but while I do agree that desktop Haswell is underwhelming for those looking to upgrade from Ivy Bridge, it seems like complete [travesty] that this reviewer would actually say that Intel is "coasting" on Haswell when it was very clearly a major step in the right direction...mobile.

Haswell ULT brought some serious battery life gains, and Haswell in general brought us ~10% IPC increase in legacy code + some seriously cool new instruction set extensions. Broadwell should be good for mobile/AIO devices where it will be in BGA form and probably will focus much more on IGP improvements than CPU improvements anyway, so it'd be pointless to bring it to LGA.

Thoughts?


No profanity in the tech forums, please.

Moderator jvroig

The real question is How Did Intel Let Haswell Get Released?

Even assuming that Haswell was a major step in the mobile direction... it was two steps backward in the desktop: (1 - 2) = -1

 

[Binky]

The real question is How Did Intel Let Haswell Get Released?

Even assuming that Haswell was a major step in the mobile direction... it was two steps backward in the desktop: (1 - 2) = -1

Same for Win8...maybe the world is changing...

 

[Rio Rebel]

One reason Haswell is a disappointment to me is the new socket. As a consumer, moving to a new socket should mean an advancement in performance that justifies new hardware.

When you look at the improvements from Clarksdale to Sandy Bridge to Ivy Bridge to Haswell, and consider that you would have purchased at least THREE different motherboards along that line, it is not very value friendly to the consumer.

 

[Ajay]

The reviewer is a joke. Maybe he don't like Haswell because it didn't match his expectation in the desktop segment but Haswell itself is way off from a joke. That's a ridiculous and polemic statement, a serious reviewer shouldn't use such a word. I can't take him serious.

It depends on ones viewpoint. Sure, as a CPU, Haswell is not a joke. But as an Enthusiast, the IHS sure is. Given desktop Haswell is the sum of it parts, it's a joke, unless one likes taking their CPUs apart. Fortunately, LGA2011 is alive and well though a bit pricey, but I guess that the shape of things to come.

As Mark Bohr points out, the industry has been in pursuit of desktop performance as priority number 1 for 20 years. It's not easy to stomach to change for many of us (who don't care how many watts are CPUs are sucking from the wall).

 

[Ajay]

...

Hey, great sig quote!

 

[Roland00Address]

I think Dustin's point (the author of the anandtech a10 mobile post) is that Intel could make a better desktop chip.

Yes the core for haswell is the same chip on desktops and laptops. They do not increase the ghz speed for to do so they will have to increase the tdp for after 3.5 ghz there is a horrible return on ghz / tdp ratio.

Nothing stops them from making a haswell core with more cores, it can be the same socket or a different socket as the xeons. They currently use the same socket with sandybridge-ex as they do with their must up to date xeons. Sandbridge ex is not release the same time as sandybridge due to testing and certification for servers.

If the die size for a 4 core haswell with the intel 4600 graphics is 177mm^2, and you were to double everything (which you wouldn't really need to do double everything) you would get an 8 core intel iris 5100 graphics with a die size of 354mm^2. To put that in comparison AMD Vishera 8 core with no integrated graphics is 315mm^2. If we double the tdp of the 4770k we get a tdp of 84 watts double that will be 168 watts. But let say we downclock the base clock (has the same turbos as the 4770k) to the level of the 4770r which has a base clock of 3.2 ghz instead of 3.5 ghz that makes the tdp 65watts double that tdp would be 130w. Said chips would still easily sell for $1000+, and would be an awesome chip with all the new instructions such as AVX2 (with double the resources).

One reason Haswell is a disappointment to me is the new socket. As a consumer, moving to a new socket should mean an advancement in performance that justifies new hardware.

When you look at the improvements from Clarksdale to Sandy Bridge to Ivy Bridge to Haswell, and consider that you would have purchased at least THREE different motherboards along that line, it is not very value friendly to the consumer.

They moved to a new socket due to the new power circuitry. Yes this new power circuitry is of very little benefit to desktop but since intel uses the same cpu for desktop and mobile and just scale the voltages to get more ghz, you can't have a haswell desktop without a new socket without redesign the power system which would mean it wouldn't be haswell anymore but instead something else.

Blame the laptops for the new power circuitry for laptops greatly benefited and thus the change.

 

[Subyman]

He specifically said desktop Haswell is a joke. There aren't many that would disagree. Most of the improvements were made for mobile uses while desktop users got very minor improvements to IPC. For an architectural refresh, Haswell is a joke for the desktop. That's without going into the crappy OCs people are getting and the continual use of TIM on the heat spreader...

 

[Sheep221]

From the recent AMD A10 mobile APU review,



I'm sorry, but while I do agree that desktop Haswell is underwhelming for those looking to upgrade from Ivy Bridge, it seems like complete [travesty] that this reviewer would actually say that Intel is "coasting" on Haswell when it was very clearly a major step in the right direction...mobile.

Haswell ULT brought some serious battery life gains, and Haswell in general brought us ~10% IPC increase in legacy code + some seriously cool new instruction set extensions. Broadwell should be good for mobile/AIO devices where it will be in BGA form and probably will focus much more on IGP improvements than CPU improvements anyway, so it'd be pointless to bring it to LGA.

Thoughts?

Reviewer was speaking about desktop CPUs and Haswell and Ivy bridge technically are jokes for desktops OP, everyone knows that. I'm not denying they made huge improvements for mobile market but why should desktop users care? Why they even released desktop processors on those platforms is something beyond all of us here.
The IVB-Haswell has no more than 5% IPC increase, 10% is technically possible, but there are no real gains which means no reason to upgrade. Not to mention heat shield TIM fiasco on IVB which continues on Haswell and will probably affect future desktop releases as well.

 

[monstercameron]

I find this thread to be very, very funny and telling, "oh someone says something bad about intel," watch all the supposed practical people[who only buy the faster cpu] flap arounf like fish out of water.
guys people have different opinions.

 

[erunion]

He specifically said desktop Haswell is a joke. There aren't many that would disagree.

I would disagree.

If the fastest available mainstream processor is a joke, where does that leave AMD?

The irony here is that he blasts HSW for being too similar to IVB in an article about Richland. Richland isn't just similar to Trinity, it is Trinity.

double standard much?

 

[Subyman]

I would disagree.

If the fastest available mainstream processor is a joke, where does that leave AMD?

The irony here is that he blasts HSW for being too similar to IVB in an article about about Richland. Richland isn't just similar to Trinity, it is Trinity.

double standard much?

Its not about Intel vs AMD, its about Intel's lack of interest in the desktop market. They are the best, so they coast. Exactly as the author described.

 

[Khato]

Reviewer was speaking about desktop CPUs and Haswell and Ivy bridge technically are jokes for desktops OP, everyone knows that. I'm not denying they made huge improvements for mobile market but why should desktop users care? Why they even released desktop processors on those platforms is something beyond all of us here.

Well, just to restate my earlier query which has thus far gone unanswered... what exactly does the state of desktop Haswell have to do with a review of mobile Richland?

It's one thing to draw conclusions and provide editorial insight based off the content of a review, it's another to go off on a tangent into a different product segment.

 

[galego]

Same for Win8...maybe the world is changing...

Hum! Bad adoption figures claim otherwise.

 

[lefty2]

I think his point was that we all get screwed when there is no competition.
Really, desktop Haswell is unimpressive -maybe saying it was a joke was going too far. AMD is not producing a FX version of steamroller in 2014 -basically they have given up on desktop. So, Intel puts out a half-assed desktop chip. Why bother spending huge amounts of research money if there is no competion?

 

[CHADBOGA]

The real question is How Did Intel Let Haswell Get Released?

Even assuming that Haswell was a major step in the mobile direction... it was two steps backward in the desktop: (1 - 2) = -1

LOL How is it two steps backward in the desktop?

 

[Arachnotronic]

I think his point was that we all get screwed when there is no competition.
Really, desktop Haswell is unimpressive -maybe saying it was a joke was going too far. AMD is not producing a FX version of steamroller in 2014 -basically they have given up on desktop. So, Intel puts out a half-assed desktop chip. Why bother spending huge amounts of research money if there is no competion?

It's not about competition it's about the fact that the market is shrinking.

 

[Ajay]

It's not about competition it's about the fact that the market is shrinking.

It's about both.

 

[meloz]

Rather ironic to give that kind of criticism when writting an AMD review.

AMD is trying, and failing. Intel can do much better, but won't.

Hardware enthusiasts (few enough remaining of us) get screwed in the process.

 

[BallaTheFeared]

Gotta love the thought processes around here.

AMD is still battling Core2 for IPC, meanwhile Intel lands another 20% IPC increase tock, lower power consumption, great scaling up and down with clocks and voltage, as well as adding new instructions.

:thumbsup:

 

[Aikouka]

The biggest power savings are found on the mobile chips, but you won't see that on the desktop parts because they don't have the s0ix states. In those situations, it may even be fine for Haswell to use more power while active if it can race to sleep faster than its predecessors.

 

[frozentundra123456]

I would disagree.

If the fastest available mainstream processor is a joke, where does that leave AMD?

The irony here is that he blasts HSW for being too similar to IVB in an article about Richland. Richland isn't just similar to Trinity, it is Trinity.

double standard much?

Yea, this is kind of along the lines of what I was thinking. How can you claim one company is not improving fast enough because they are so far ahead that there is no competition, and then criticize that company for its performance.

Where does that leave AMD? If haswell is a joke, what is Vishera, a worse joke?

 

[blackened23]

AMD is trying, and failing. Intel can do much better, but won't.

Hardware enthusiasts (few enough remaining of us) get screwed in the process.

Intel can do better at what? If you understand what intel is aiming for, Haswell is by far the biggest success intel has had in recent memory - Haswell was designed for mobile efficiency from the outset and considering it has better battery life than nearly every ARM SOC, I would say intel surpassed all expectations. 13 hours of battery life. That is more than the ipad while having far, far great computational power.

Like it or not, desktop is becoming a niche because nobody buys desktops anymore save a few enthusiasts who whine on forums incessantly. I'm sorry, but the average consumer knows nothing about how to insert a chip into an LGA socket and will never buy a huge desktop - I'm a desktop guy too but I completely understand the design considerations that went towards Haswell - they're going after a market which actually sells product. Not a desktop market that is dipping by 20% per quarter. I guess per most posters here, intel should chase the market that isn't selling...perhaps they could join AMD as a not for profit organization by doing so.

Aside from all of this, I don't even understand the Haswell hate. The chip was not designed in desktop form for someone who wants to upgrade their CPU every 11 months, on it's own merit it's a great chip - it has a solid IPC increase over IVB, similar to the IPC increase IVB had over SB. Let's not put it in the same light as an FX chip which are disappointments in every way. In the meantime, if you really want an enthusiast part you can wait for the IB-E which is coming this fall - i'm sure there will be something for folks to complain about regarding IB-E as well. I wonder what it will be. Probably price. Price/performance. We should take bets on what people will whine about w.r.t. IVB-E.

 

[meloz]

Intel can do better at what?

1. Start by not crippling chips by fusing off TSX and VT-d.

2. Then fix the thermal issues. If they can fabricate silicon at 22nm, they can surely fix the micrometer range gap between heatspreader and silicon underneath.

3. Bring Broadwell to desktop in 2014, instead of coasting on Haswell for 24 months. I could definitely do with a nice boost in iGPU and lower power consumption, even though there are plenty who say "these things do not matter for desktop".