How Did Anand Let This Get Published?

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jpiniero

Lifer
Oct 1, 2010
14,839
5,456
136
Consider 3770k vs 4770k:

  • 1-5% increase in average performance, but performance regressions in specific tests.
  • Higher power consumption.
  • Run hotter.
  • Poor OC.
And that is the short list.

So? Do you think they care? Intel's got lots of problems - ARM, Windows 8, fab costs, physics, economic realities...
 

Sweepr

Diamond Member
May 12, 2006
5,148
1,142
131
[/LIST]

Correction: 8% increase in average performance at the same frequency.

10-11% faster than Ivy Bridge @ same frequency according to Hardware.fr, which makes it ~15% faster clock per clock than Sandy Bridge. Meanwhile AMD has yet to beat 2009 Phenom II IPC with its Bulldozer-based designs. A new version of this chart would be interesting:

 

Zap

Elite Member
Oct 13, 1999
22,377
2
81
"Only a 10% increase..."

Sounds like a first world problem to me.
 

Subyman

Moderator <br> VC&G Forum
Mar 18, 2005
7,876
32
86
"Only a 10% increase..."

Sounds like a first world problem to me.

That first world problem crap needs to die off. If we only took time to think about "survival" then we'd only be surviving, not improving. People's day-to-day issues shouldn't always be compared to starvation, it trivializes practically everything people work for. Its a funny phrase to put under cat faces, but that's it.
 

galego

Golden Member
Apr 10, 2013
1,091
0
0
So? Do you think they care? Intel's got lots of problems - ARM, Windows 8, fab costs, physics, economic realities...

AMD has those problems and more, but their new Richland is a step forward over trinity and Temash and Kabini are very important steps forward as well. Forthcoming Kaveri will be a giant step forward.

10-11% faster than Ivy Bridge @ same frequency according to Hardware.fr, which makes it ~15% faster clock per clock than Sandy Bridge. Meanwhile AMD has yet to beat 2009 Phenom II IPC with its Bulldozer-based designs. A new version of this chart would be interesting:


Some other benchmarks from tomshardware. About 5% increase in performance:




Performance regression:



Null increase in performance per watt:

 
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StrangerGuy

Diamond Member
May 9, 2004
8,443
124
106
"Only a 10% increase..."

Sounds like a first world problem to me.

Intel HAVE to limit the generational performance gains; they are already way overselling CPU power to the average consumer for years. The last thing they need is to add more processing power so people will have even less reason to upgrade.
 

Hulk

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,374
2,251
136
1. Start by not crippling chips by fusing off TSX and VT-d.

2. Then fix the thermal issues. If they can fabricate silicon at 22nm, they can surely fix the micrometer range gap between heatspreader and silicon underneath.

3. Bring Broadwell to desktop in 2014, instead of coasting on Haswell for 24 months. I could definitely do with a nice boost in iGPU and lower power consumption, even though there are plenty who say "these things do not matter for desktop".


To your points:

1. It's standard practice in any business to offer varying levels or performance at varying price points. Nothing to new here. Yes, it seems crazy to artificially limit performance by "turning off" parts of the chip that are actually there. But it's kind of the same thing when they limit clockspeed of a part that can go higher and we've been accepting that for decades.

2. No reason to as all of their parts run at rated frequency no problem. Although I will admit that it would be nice to see a more efficient TIM/manufacturing tolerances on "K" parts.

3. No reason due to lack of competition on the desktop. They are putting their focus on the ultra mobile space where they basically have zero market penetration.
 

mrmt

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2012
3,974
0
76
I think you guys should think about the future of the desktop market.

It's easy to see why Intel is dropping the ball here. Intel needs high margins because it needs to fund their bleeding edge tech. That said, with most of the consumer market moving to mobile, Intel will obviously focus their resources there. Instead of desktop, notebooks and servers Intel will go for mobile, notebooks and servers. Mainstream desktop is becoming an afterthought for Intel, a market where Intel doesn't even bother to field a good thermal solution. Cheap is the name of the game here. And the reason for that is not lack of competition, it's lack of returns. Intel doesn't feel compelled with ROI for the desktop markets.

The big elephant in the room isn't that Intel is cheaping on the IHS, but that Intel isn't designing, much less tuning their mainstream parts for desktop usage. Their mainstream parts are being tuned for mobile usage. Instead of investing money in develop a new fancy instruction to improve IPC or to make the core beefier, Intel is spending time and money in developing Cx sleeping states and other gimmicks to keep power under control. Instead of going for a clock speed uber alles process, they are going for a low leakage dense process. Once you have this kind of trend, other subjects like the cheap IHS become a non-issue, because whatever they field on the desktop it will be just an afterthought, a byproduct of their mobile designs.

And what about AMD? AMD doesn't need high margins. With forecast margins around 40%, why isn't AMD focusing all their resources on the desktop when Intel is dropping the ball? AMD doesn't appear to want this market for themselves, and the only explanation is that forecast returns for a high level premium mainstream desktop chip will be low, very low. Far lower than anything AMD can think of, and AMD pipeline isn't exactly a ROI star.

AMD strategy since Bulldozer reflects this reality. They designed two parts, one for mobile and other for servers. The leaky mobile parts become mainstream APU, and the defective/leaky junk silicon becomes FX chips. When an unprofitable company like AMD decides to leave a market on the backburner, why would a profitable company like Intel do the opposite?

It's easy to bash Intel for what they have been doing now, cheaping out the IHS, fuzzing off features. I'd be happier if they weren't doing this. But in the end, the real problem is that returns on the desktop market appear to be diminishing to the point that not even AMD finds desktop worth the investment. And there is no amount of features or better IHS that could make up for that.
 
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mikk

Diamond Member
May 15, 2012
4,173
2,211
136


That just shows that some Boards were immature. They tested with a Gigabyte, so no surprise really. Last week Gigabyte published a beta bios to address the bandwith issue.


Keep posting cherry picked benchmarks.

I'm not familiar with Himeno but what can happen is that some apps are struggling to detect the new Haswell which causes a fallback to an older code. From what I have seen it is a very very rare case however, so your cherry-picked benchmarks look stupid.
 

Sheep221

Golden Member
Oct 28, 2012
1,843
27
81
I think you guys should think about the future of the desktop market.

It's easy to see why Intel is dropping the ball here. Intel needs high margins because it needs to fund their bleeding edge tech. That said, with most of the consumer market moving to mobile, Intel will obviously focus their resources there. Instead of desktop, notebooks and servers Intel will go for mobile, notebooks and servers. Mainstream desktop is becoming an afterthought for Intel, a market where Intel doesn't even bother to field a good thermal solution. Cheap is the name of the game here. And the reason for that is not lack of competition, it's lack of returns. Intel doesn't feel compelled with ROI for the desktop markets.

The big elephant in the room isn't that Intel is cheaping on the IHS, but that Intel isn't designing, much less tuning their mainstream parts for desktop usage. Their mainstream parts are being tuned for mobile usage. Instead of investing money in develop a new fancy instruction to improve IPC or to make the core beefier, Intel is spending time and money in developing Cx sleeping states and other gimmicks to keep power under control. Instead of going for a clock speed uber alles process, they are going for a low leakage dense process. Once you have this kind of trend, other subjects like the cheap IHS become a non-issue, because whatever they field on the desktop it will be just an afterthought, a byproduct of their mobile designs.

And what about AMD? AMD doesn't need high margins. With forecast margins around 40%, why isn't AMD focusing all their resources on the desktop when Intel is dropping the ball? AMD doesn't appear to want this market for themselves, and the only explanation is that forecast returns for a high level premium mainstream desktop chip will be low, very low. Far lower than anything AMD can think of, and AMD pipeline isn't exactly a ROI star.

AMD strategy since Bulldozer reflects this reality. They designed two parts, one for mobile and other for servers. The leaky mobile parts become mainstream APU, and the defective/leaky junk silicon becomes FX chips. When an unprofitable company like AMD decides to leave a market on the backburner, why would a profitable company like Intel do the opposite?

It's easy to bash Intel for what they have been doing now, cheaping out the IHS, fuzzing off features. I'd be happier if they weren't doing this. But in the end, the real problem is that returns on the desktop market appear to be diminishing to the point that not even AMD finds desktop worth the investment. And there is no amount of features or better IHS that could make up for that.
You have been just reading too much of net reviews and rumors sir,

Desktop is and will remain for many years to come main platform for computing.
Desktops are everywhere, go to stores, offices, households, there are apparently 10 people in the room who work on desktops and one on laptop.
Laptops are good for students who study abroad, frequent travelers, or tablets if they want it even lighter and smaller, but honestly, everywhere I go laptops are held in the closet or on the bed at least, and everyone still owns and buy new desktops. I'd say there has been an increase in laptop and tablet sales respectively, but not a real decrease in desktop usage.
Intel and AMD are now focused on mobile hardware because they want to earn cash on that stuff too, they OWN and CONTROL the desktop market, without anyone else endangering it. But since the mobile phones and tablets mainly became more versatile rather than for calling and simple organization of work data they also want to compete with ARM, Samsung and their licensed manufacturers because they also can get a good market share, which is now in the boom, but I don't believe any of this stuff like desktop is dying or will get diminished in next few years, yeah we were told in 1970s that computers in 20 years will be higly intelligent devices used for real-time translation, health problem diagnostics and even providing own ideas in developing new technologies, today we are told that desktop gonna go soon, what? None of the future predictions are true and never be. It's 2013 and desktops are faster and hardware is more ergonomic but yet there is nothing that is going to replace them, so just the tablets and phones are not good for any desktop tasks beyond basic web browsing and listening to music. Laptops are better candidates in replacing desktops but still many people choose the desktops over because of ergonomy, increased durability and performance. Office applications, design suites, programming, any serious video and photo editing and more creative jobs are done on laptops only when it is only option, not to mention you can't do that on phones or tablets. It's not true that AMD or Intel skipped on desktop market, they LIVE from it, they don't live from selling atom netbooks and tablets. The desktop computers are however much more sophisticated and so they decided that they can manage to develop competing circuitry for mobile electronics with some more focus on the subject to gain in new emerging market because they know they can't lose on desktops as no one else is working in this field. If they skip on mobiles now, they lose step and will get taken over by others.
I don't strictly need Intel or AMD to release any competitive 2500K successor, but I don't agree with releasing new architecture for desktops when adjustments were done for mobile sector. I consider this as big turnoff from Intel, because IVB and Haswell are Sandy bridges customized for mobile makret, not new redesigned desktop CPUs, and they shouldn't be sold like that, that's all the problem right now here. I'd rather don't want to see any new arch in 4 years but when it comes it will bring huge IPC, Power and IGP improvements rather than rebadging same thing all over.
 

Phynaz

Lifer
Mar 13, 2006
10,140
819
126
Desktop is and will remain for many years to come main platform for computing.

Nice wall of text. The problem is it's wrong in the second sentence. Just look at CPU sales. Mobile x86 parts started outselling desktop parts some years ago, and the trend is accelerating. And we won't even mention computing devices that aren't x86 based.
 

blackened23

Diamond Member
Jul 26, 2011
8,548
2
0
You have been just reading too much of net reviews and rumors sir,

No offense, but you need to step out of your reality distortion field. Desktop sales are dismal, and that is a fact - The average person does not care about the increased performance, the trend is smaller, sleeker, with longer battery life. Period end of story. The average consumer can do their computing tasks on a tablet, whereas 15 years ago any type of computing task required a desktop. As the average consumer doesn't need 15 gabillion GFlops, they choose the lighter device that can be used on the go.

This leaves a far smaller niche of hobbyists and gamers who still enjoy desktops, but the buyer base for these products is far smaller than it was several years ago. Desktop will be around for some years but I see prices rising across the board and I personally predict intel will shuffle their "mainstream" processors towards 6 to 8 core E type processors with higher costs. I can see discrete GPU prices increasing as well, since the sales of discrete cards has fallen across the board as well.

I'm not saying this because i'm looking forward to it, as I still enjoy desktops. But it seems to be inevitable outcome, the sales numbers don't lie. The decline of desktop and intel's change of focus has nothing to do with AMD or lack of competition, in fact if you look at what AMD is doing they're doing precisely the same thing - trying to increase mobility and efficiency with their mobile products. Only they're doing a worse job at it. Intel doesn't even consider AMD a real competitor these days, their primary concern is qualcomm, nvidia, and all ARM SOC manufacturers. They've stated as much many times in the past couple of years.
 
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mrmt

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2012
3,974
0
76
You have been just reading too much of net reviews and rumors sir,

Desktop is and will remain for many years to come main platform for computing.

Could you please explain your statement? Notebooks surpassed desktops sales since since 2008 or 2009. The number today is closer to 65%/35% (units) in Intel mix, 50%/50% in AMD.
 

Sheep221

Golden Member
Oct 28, 2012
1,843
27
81
Nice wall of text. The problem is it's wrong in the second sentence. Just look at CPU sales. Mobile x86 parts started outselling desktop parts some years ago, and the trend is accelerating. And we won't even mention computing devices that aren't x86 based.
Outselling has nothing to do with desktops being more or less common in general point of view, or dying or extinct or whatever else terms being used on this board lately.
I said that desktops have specific technological role and when looking in the near future I don't see any of the mobiles going to replace desktops in this regard. Until phones or tablets won't be this sophisticated that they will deploy display and controlling mechanics of desktops from themselves and retaining their performance, I don't see desktops going nowhere.
You just can't pack the SUV or semi-truck in to the supermini car with its features being preserved bro. Or believe it is yet possible.
 

blackened23

Diamond Member
Jul 26, 2011
8,548
2
0
Right. Nobody said that desktops will disappear overnight. There is still a role for desktops and intel will still sell chips for high performance computing, but the average person doesn't need such a high performance device. Intel is focusing their R+D on a market that is selling, not one that is declining by 20% per quarter - so it is all too understandable as to why intel isn't completely focused on all out desktop IPC.
 
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AnandThenMan

Diamond Member
Nov 11, 2004
3,949
504
126
When there was nothing else but a desktop computer, in many cases the system was severely under utilized. How many people had (and still have) a mid tower that has computing power far beyond what they even begin to max out. That would be most people.

Now with the shift to much less powerful devices, the convenience is there and processing power is enough for the vast majority of workloads. To me that is why the desktop is effectively on life support.
 

BallaTheFeared

Diamond Member
Nov 15, 2010
8,115
0
71
Right. Nobody said that desktops will disappear overnight. However, intel is focusing their R+D on a market that is selling, not one that is declining by 20% per quarter - so it is all too understandable as to why intel isn't completely focused on all out desktop IPC.

That's half the story.

The other half is server, which uses the same core.

What Intel is trying to do is get their chips to scale from top to bottom.

They want clock speed and performance to scale better with voltage and power usage.
 

blackened23

Diamond Member
Jul 26, 2011
8,548
2
0
That's correct as well. Efficiency is highly desirable for the parallel processing / server market, so it makes sense for intel to take this direction with their R+D.
 

Sheep221

Golden Member
Oct 28, 2012
1,843
27
81
Right. Nobody said that desktops will disappear overnight. There is still a role for desktops and intel will still sell chips for high performance computing, but the average person doesn't need such a high performance device. Intel is focusing their R+D on a market that is selling, not one that is declining by 20% per quarter - so it is all too understandable as to why intel isn't completely focused on all out desktop IPC.
That's what I was speaking about, I talked about working activities where desktops are important, business sector, workplace, serious stuff, servers(servers are technically desktops anyway), even workers in terrain still use rugged laptops and that ofc leaves much more desktop computers to be used beside hobbysts and enthusiasts. I know that people who just use facebook and read mail will use tablets instead of desktops and that will cause a good shrink of them ofc, but I said that desktops will retain considerable market share for long time still due to their nature. And I noticed IRL that desktops are not somehow decreasing, as I said everywhere I go I see desktops to be still most prevalent type of computers.
Same goes for AMD and Intel, as I said it too that they are both focused on mobiles now.
Could you please explain your statement? Notebooks surpassed desktops sales since since 2008 or 2009. The number today is closer to 65%/35% (units) in Intel mix, 50%/50% in AMD.
Than again I was speaking about computing, social networking, youtube etc are not computing, they are media type money generators which is more of TV nature rather than computing nature.
 

relztes

Junior Member
Apr 19, 2009
8
0
0
I think the OP is definitely picking the wrong thing to complain about in this review. The real problem is that a $150 35W AMD processor is compared only to $300 15-17W intel processors. I'm not sure who this favors, since the price obviously favors intel, while the TDP AMD, but it makes the comparison nearly worthless. A 35W A10 should be compared to a 35W i3. I know it's not anything Anandtech does intentionally, it's just that nobody is sending Anandtech an i3 review sample. But it gives the manufacturers a lot of control over the review process if they get to choose which products get compared to their competitors.

If we ever get a review of the A8 5545M, it would be nice to see that compared to a U-series i3 as well.
 

mrmt

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2012
3,974
0
76
Than again I was speaking about computing, social networking, youtube etc are not computing, they are media type money generators which is more of TV nature rather than computing nature.

It doesn't matter what *you* consider computing, as you need a MPU to watch youtube and go through social network. And when I say mobile, I'm not talking about tablets or phones, but also notebook and mobile workstations. It is here the desktop problem. People are using notebooks instead of a bulky desktop, and the notebook market is already bigger than the desktop market. Guess which market is getting more optimizations from both x86 companies.

Here's a real world example of what I'm talking about: My company has over 350.000 client computers around 30 countries, and guess what, the majority of them is notebooks, not desktops.
 

mikk

Diamond Member
May 15, 2012
4,173
2,211
136
I think the OP is definitely picking the wrong thing to complain about in this review. The real problem is that a $150 35W AMD processor is compared only to $300 15-17W intel processors.


Price comparisons with regular and ULV models are nonsense. It is also nonsense to base it on list prices. It's not what big OEM's have to pay. Don't forget A10 is a showcase APU which isn't available without discrete GPU. When it comes to integtrated graphics performance A10 won't matter. What matter are A4, A6, A8 APUs. A10 price:

http://skinflint.co.uk/eu/?cat=nb&xf=29_AMD+A10-5M#xf_top

Over 1000&#8364;!!!

Because it is not available without GPU and probably won't in the future. Haswell ULV:

http://skinflint.co.uk/eu/?cat=nb&xf=29_Core+i5-4~29_Core+i3-4~2647_15~29_Core+i7-4&sort=p


Way cheaper. The cheapest Haswell ULV notebook is listed for 399&#8364;.
 
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