how did the chinese fall behind?

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JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
Anyone who says communism is a fucking idiot. Srsly, you are just plain retarded.

The Qing dynasty had been deteriorating for a while, until Britain came along in 1839 and kicked the shit out of them during the first opium war. The Chinese state started to whither and die until some time in the 1980's or 1990's.

Communism was a symptom of their disease, not a cause. It only took root because it provided an alternative to the chaos of warlordism that had enveloped the country. Jesus Hume Christ, the Communists were the only ones who resisted the Japanese.

In terms of technorogy the onry important period is 1950+ and indeed communism is what set them back. In an alternative universe where China followed the Asian Tiger model post WW2, who knows where'd they be today.
 

dighn

Lifer
Aug 12, 2001
22,820
4
81
In terms of technorogy the onry important period is 1950+ and indeed communism is what set them back. In an alternative universe where China followed the Asian Tiger model post WW2, who knows where'd they be today.

It's more precise to say they fell further behind because of communism. China's relative decline compared to the west started long before communism took over. I actually don't think it's a problem unique to China; look at the more developed asian countries and you'll see that they succeed by adopting western ideas. Even the most successful ones (e.g. Japan) don't innovate on a deep level like european-descended nations do (I'm not talking about fancy phones here). Something in asian culture just doesn't promote progress like european culture does.
 

rakzum

Banned
Sep 12, 2011
290
0
0
It's me or that Niall Ferguson is a quacking duck who glorifies colonialism and belittle Confucianism?
 

rakzum

Banned
Sep 12, 2011
290
0
0
It's more precise to say they fell further behind because of communism. China's relative decline compared to the west started long before communism took over. I actually don't think it's a problem unique to China; look at the more developed asian countries and you'll see that they succeed by adopting western ideas. Even the most successful ones (e.g. Japan) don't innovate on a deep level like european-descended nations do (I'm not talking about fancy phones here). Something in asian culture just doesn't promote progress like european culture does.

I don't think there is any trace of Confucianism in Eastern universities these days. You've got to be joking me. It's not culture, but a constellation of other factors that explain the current innovation status of Eastern countries.
 

iGas

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2009
6,240
1
0
Confucianism, Taoism and Buddhism, are ideas that held the Chinese together but also hampered progress.

The teaching tell people to except their position in life, as in the poor should be happy to be poor and so as wealthy people should be happy, hence there isn't a need to yearn to be greater than themselves or their forefathers. This peaceful teaching is the key element that stop progress, and learning even those it promote learning at the same time.

And then there it the lack of copy right or patent thinking process in Chinese society, therefore many inventor hide their trade secret, and only teach it to a select few. Often that lead to the lost of the trade secrets, because there are no male heir in the family to transfer the knowledge to.
 
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yhelothar

Lifer
Dec 11, 2002
18,408
39
91
1. Western Age of Enlightment - seriously, realizing you know nothing and dedicating society to the pursuit of truth and knowledge just made Europe ROFLSTOMP the rest of the world.

2. Confucianism, and the general Eastern philosophies of traditionalism. This has worked great for over a millenia as iGas explains. It made people accept their position in life and make them work hard. Production is high as people worked without complaint. But it had little room for innovation and growth, where the age of enlightment allowed Europe to enter the industrial revolution.

3. Isolationism: Fact #1 wouldn't be nearly as bad if the Chinese weren't so full of themselves and were willing to learn from others.
 

epidemis

Senior member
Jun 6, 2007
796
0
0
To clarify.. China was never a 3rd world country.

Hehe no, it was a second world country ^^

China never produced anything noteworthy, so I reject the title of this thread. They never were ahead in the first place.
 

yhelothar

Lifer
Dec 11, 2002
18,408
39
91
Hehe no, it was a second world country ^^

China never produced anything noteworthy, so I reject the title of this thread. They never were ahead in the first place.

They were ahead prior to the western age of enlightment. They were technologically and militarily superior prior to the 1500s. Their junks totally owned and dwarfed the western ships at the time. Their porcelain, tea, spices, etc were coveted and traded around the world.
 

OverVolt

Lifer
Aug 31, 2002
14,278
89
91
People forget how unstable China really is as a dictatorship. Multiple people in power who if they were to get sick would cause a power vacuum.

China will also have a hard landing from all the year after year economic growth when the numbers slow down.

People forget stuff like this and just think of China as some unidentified economic power house that doesn't have any rules.
 

infoiltrator

Senior member
Feb 9, 2011
704
0
0
China established a static culture, government, beaurocracy, and ruling class. Change was destabilizing, therefore descouraged. With no upward mobility (outside of classical pursuits) there was no reason to "capitalize" inventions.
The bow was superior to gun powder weapons into the early 1800s, if you had the trained, disiplined, motivated bowmen.
What drove European weapons developement was the political need for canon. Siege and naval.
The Moslems made a similar choice, for polical reasons. The clergy declared the Koran the only book worth studying, the rulers approved because it restricted rule and dominance to the aristocracy and those who could fight their way into it. More or less.
Egyptian Janasaries (look it up) asked why the Europeans insisted on using such unmanly weapons.

The US colonies were escentially independent states, they weredriven to unity and revolt, and succeeded because men choose to support the interests of most over themselves, a rare thing indeed.
When I see some of our political "statements" I wonder where the compromise and nation building went.
There are politicians here and now who would fit that chinese court very well.

Change isn't always comfortable, especially now as we have to make the rules as we go.
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
96,184
15,779
126
I would say adoption of Confucius's ideals did the most damage. It's good for creating stability, which you want in a big country like China, but lack of innovation or even will to import innovation hurt big time.
 
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