How did the right get it so wrong? CA booming instead of dooming!

[NWRMidnight]

Texas. We entirely rely on property taxes for localities (City/County/School District) since we don't have state income taxes.

Is that why your citizen's quality of life is in the toilet?
We don't have a state income tax here in Washington either (same revenue streams as Texas). The difference between your shitty state and Washington, is Washington is #1 in Quality of life for it's citizens, Texas in #38.. So please, don't act like things are being done right in Texas, because that is factually false.

Quality of Life by State 2024

worldpopulationreview.com

To add to your stupidity, Texas in #29 in reliant on Federal tax dollars.. Washington is #45.. (CA is #32) Just another example that Texas is not doing things right. (All 3 'WA,TX, CA' actually support many of the red states that are on the top of the list with their federal tax dollars, with TX giving the least support out of the 3).

The States That Are Most Reliant on Federal Aid

MoneyGeek’s analysis identified the states most reliant on federal funding and found an intriguing correlation between dependency and political leaning.

www.moneygeek.com

nom nom nom - delicious post history of the left eating itself as they realize the difference between paying taxes and not paying taxes lol.

How's that quality of life for Texan's doing?

 

[Fenixgoon]

Is that why your citizen's quality of life is in the toilet?
We don't have a state income tax here in Washington either. The difference between your shitty state and Washington, is Washington is #1 in Quality of life for it's citizens, Texas in #38.. So please, don't act like things are being done right in Texas, because that is factually false.

Quality of Life by State 2024

worldpopulationreview.com

Maryland #6, heyoooooo!

 

[woolfe9998]

I think you should take a break. You aren’t reading what I’m writing and you are coming across as angry.

What I highlighted was your claim of what we know. You are claiming that paying lower taxes is an incentive not to develope land despite having zero data to back that up. Developers weigh the costs (as in lost money) in not developing the land with potential profit if they developed/sold it at X (time) instead of developing/selling it at y(time). How much prop 13 impacts decisions is the unknown. If it turns out that it’s non factor then what did we get by eliminating prop 13? That seems like an important piece of data to have before making any policy decisions.

No, I don't need a break and I'm not angry. Are you?

I think maybe you didn't read my post #271 before writing this? Or maybe you did. Doesn't matter.

To summarize, anything that adds to development costs is a disincentive because it gets added to the cost side of the balance sheet. Yes, we don't know exactly by how much, or, for that matter, by how much other factors like higher regulations contribute. But the notion that prop13 or, for that matter, anything that makes development significantly more expensive, is a non-factor is kind of ridiculous.

Unless the amount of added cost is negligible. Which it is not. If you own a piece of undeveloped property you bought, say, back in the 70's, that lot was probably worth $30K at best in 1978 when prop13 was passed. I base that on the fact that developed homes in the bay area here were in vicinity of $70k-100K at that time. If you develop it now, you will have a property newly assessed at anywhere from 500K to millions, depending on many variables. We're talking about paying thousands or 10's or thousands in yearly taxes instead of hundreds. That strikes me as significant but YMMV.

 

[woolfe9998]

Here's another of the many serious problems with prop13. This is IIRC as a read about it several years ago so if they found a way to close this loophole, great.

If you own a business, say a dry cleaner, and you also own the property you operate out of, then you sell the property, all you have to do is have the property be "owned" by a business entity, say an LLC, instead of by you personally. Then when you sell the business and the property along with it, you sell ownership of the LLC instead of selling the property directly. And ownership goes along with the LLC. The sale then does not trigger a reassessment because there is no "change in ownership." So the new owner has the same property tax basis.

This is how businesses, small and large, including corporate chains, have avoided paying significant property taxes on their commercial property for decades now. But it's OK, we can make up for all that with high regressive sales taxes instead.

 

[Moonbeam]

It is funny/unsurprising how when people talk about keeping prop 13 they talk about the poor grandma taxed out of her home. In reality by far the biggest beneficiaries are rich people.

Now there's a moral argument for you. Tax Grandmas out of their home so you can stick it to a larger number of rich people.

 

[MrSquished]

Usually what I see is white flight. White people leave urban core and flee to suburbs. Then complain that their kids have to get bused to wherever because the are no schools near McMansionVille. Then go through bond referendum to build new school and then bitch about property taxes. These schools don't build themselves.

And they want good schools too. Texas has a very mediocre public school system. It's not a selling point at all. Whereas states like NJ and MA have the best public school systems.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Is that why your citizen's quality of life is in the toilet?
We don't have a state income tax here in Washington either (same revenue streams as Texas). The difference between your shitty state and Washington, is Washington is #1 in Quality of life for it's citizens, Texas in #38.. So please, don't act like things are being done right in Texas, because that is factually false.

Quality of Life by State 2024

worldpopulationreview.com

To add to your stupidity, Texas in #29 in reliant on Federal tax dollars.. Washington is #45.. (CA is #32) Just another example that Texas is not doing things right. (All 3 'WA,TX, CA' actually support many of the red states that are on the top of the list with their federal tax dollars, with TX giving the least support out of the 3).

The States That Are Most Reliant on Federal Aid

MoneyGeek’s analysis identified the states most reliant on federal funding and found an intriguing correlation between dependency and political leaning.

www.moneygeek.com

How's that quality of life for Texan's doing?

Whatever you're thinking - and whatever you're seeing is from a 100% disreputable resource. Hence, you can't bring it up in any other resource worth a shit lol.

because you know, when quality of life is in the shitter, thats when people MAGICALLY start flocking to your state amirite? You incompetent insectile lol.

But hey, why use facts when you can use your feelings instead?

 

[fskimospy]

Now there's a moral argument for you. Tax Grandmas out of their home so you can stick it to a larger number of rich people.

The exact same argument could be used for sales taxes.

 

[MrSquished]

I was on FB before and a friend had commented on this guys post from Arizona, whose profile has a pick of an AR rifle as his profile pic. Anyways he was bitching about how this parcel of land near him had been rezoned from being able to build 5 homes to 32 homes, and it was a long post and he bitched and moaned about all of it and how he was going to move, then went into a little diatribe about how the communists were trying to devalue our currency. I take it the Communists were Democrats.

One of the comments was 'the cities and the suburbs ruin everything, prove me wrong'

These people are not only NIMBY idiots, they are delusional. And it's so ironic that a guy rails against what he perceives as big government Communism while wanting the government to enforce what another landowner can do to their land just because it makes them happy. Total psychosis, like most conservatives.

Fucking idiots.

 

[ivwshane]

Here's another of the many serious problems with prop13. This is IIRC as a read about it several years ago so if they found a way to close this loophole, great.

If you own a business, say a dry cleaner, and you also own the property you operate out of, then you sell the property, all you have to do is have the property be "owned" by a business entity, say an LLC, instead of by you personally. Then when you sell the business and the property along with it, you sell ownership of the LLC instead of selling the property directly. And ownership goes along with the LLC. The sale then does not trigger a reassessment because there is no "change in ownership." So the new owner has the same property tax basis.

This is how businesses, small and large, including corporate chains, have avoided paying significant property taxes on their commercial property for decades now. But it's OK, we can make up for all that with high regressive sales taxes instead.

I don’t believe that’s been addressed/closed. However that’s a different topic from what we are discussing which is the impact on housing prices by prop 13.

I believe prop 13 does good but there are areas of opportunity to fix it like the area you mentioned.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

I don’t believe that’s been addressed/closed. However that’s a different topic from what we are discussing which is the impact on housing prices by prop 13.

I believe prop 13 does good but there are areas of opportunity to fix it like the area you mentioned.

It's hilarious how stupid you lefties are when it comes to enactments from liberal bunghole jurisdictions. All of a sudden NIMBY and FYGM is totally acceptable when it comes to something like property taxes lol.

Keep on keeping on, turdburglers - it's quite entertaining.

 

[fskimospy]

I was on FB before and a friend had commented on this guys post from Arizona, whose profile has a pick of an AR rifle as his profile pic. Anyways he was bitching about how this parcel of land near him had been rezoned from being able to build 5 homes to 32 homes, and it was a long post and he bitched and moaned about all of it and how he was going to move, then went into a little diatribe about how the communists were trying to devalue our currency. I take it the Communists were Democrats.

One of the comments was 'the cities and the suburbs ruin everything, prove me wrong'

These people are not only NIMBY idiots, they are delusional. And it's so ironic that a guy rails against what he perceives as big government Communism while wanting the government to enforce what another landowner can do to their land just because it makes them happy. Total psychosis, like most conservatives.

Fucking idiots.

It surely is something when ‘the government won’t control what gets built here’ means ‘communism’.

 

[ivwshane]

No, I don't need a break and I'm not angry. Are you?

I think maybe you didn't read my post #271 before writing this? Or maybe you did. Doesn't matter.

To summarize, anything that adds to development costs is a disincentive because it gets added to the cost side of the balance sheet. Yes, we don't know exactly by how much, or, for that matter, by how much other factors like higher regulations contribute. But the notion that prop13 or, for that matter, anything that makes development significantly more expensive, is a non-factor is kind of ridiculous.

Unless the amount of added cost is negligible. Which it is not. If you own a piece of undeveloped property you bought, say, back in the 70's, that lot was probably worth $30K at best in 1978 when prop13 was passed. I base that on the fact that developed homes in the bay area here were in vicinity of $70k-100K at that time. If you develop it now, you will have a property newly assessed at anywhere from 500K to millions, depending on many variables. We're talking about paying thousands or 10's or thousands in yearly taxes instead of hundreds. That strikes me as significant but YMMV.

Your numbers are off by a lot but I understand the point you are trying to make.
I’m just guessing but if someone buys land, there is zero point in not developing it just because you’ll end up paying a lot more in property taxes when if you don’t develope it you’ll still be paying taxes on it but instead of being able to sell it for a hefty profit or live in it or use it for rental property, or get any value out of it, it will just be an anchor around your neck. So I don’t see how that could be common thinking with a significant number of vacant lots.

Then again, Americans have proven that they aren’t very smart.

 

[NWRMidnight]

Whatever you're thinking - and whatever you're seeing is from a 100% disreputable resource. Hence, you can't bring it up in any other resource worth a shit lol.

because you know, when quality of life is in the shitter, thats when people MAGICALLY start flocking to your state amirite? You incompetent insectile lol.

But hey, why use facts when you can use your feelings instead?

You are more than welcome to dispute the my facts with your own sources..

As for your growth rate aregument:

5. Texas

Texas grew 1.29% from 2019 to 2020. Its current population is 29,360,759, a growth of 373,965 from 2019. This means that Texas's population grows by over 1,000 people per day. Texas has the fifth-highest birth rate in the U.S. of 13.2 births per 100,000 people. However, only 40% of its population growth is attributed to natural increases, while 60% is due to net migration. Recently, international migration has exceeded domestic migration, with an increase in migration from Asian countries, especially China and India.

for contras:

8. Washington

Washington's population grew by 1.05% between 2019 and 2020, growing from 7,614,024 to 7,693,612. Washington has no state income and is considered to be one of the most beautiful states for its cascading mountains and national parks. Washington is also considered to have the best overall quality of life because of its strong job market, a low poverty rate, and the overall health of its residents.

Fastest Growing States 2024

worldpopulationreview.com

Most of the domestic migration to Texas is just brain washed idiot GQP flocking to be with other idiots who believe in the same lies you do. Just stupid being stupid

 

[JockoJohnson]

Do any other states have a similar Prop 13? Are people being taxed out of their homes elsewhere due to no Prop 13 protecting them?

Not sure if this was mentioned but aren’t all property taxes used for school and local municipal? So people can lock in their taxes on their property with Prop 13? I guess teachers, police, fire, etc.don’t get pay raises or budgets never increase in CA.
If everyone’s property tax was assessed every year, wouldn’t that help average out those that don’t have it increase vs those that pay a larger amount because they just moved in?

 

[ivwshane]

Do any other states have a similar Prop 13? Are people being taxed out of their homes elsewhere due to no Prop 13 protecting them?

Not sure if this was mentioned but aren’t all property taxes used for school and local municipal? So people can lock in their taxes on their property with Prop 13? I guess teachers, police, fire, etc.don’t get pay raises or budgets never increase in CA.
If everyone’s property tax was assessed every year, wouldn’t that help average out those that don’t have it increase vs those that pay a larger amount because they just moved in?

That’s not how it works. There are about 15-20 states with similar laws.

For reference; prop 13 doesn’t lock in your taxes, it sets your initial property tax rate at 1% and sets a cap that it can’t increase more than 2% per year from assessments (when no major improvements have been made).

Lowered property tax revenue meant an increase in taxes elsewhere. Those increases resulted in about 36% more in revenue however compared to other states that was lower than the 70% increase in revenue other states saw. Even still, the per person revenue is less than it was in 78 accounting for inflation (I suspect because most cities have grown in size).

 

[Moonbeam]

The exact same argument could be used for sales taxes.

I don’t think there should be any tax but on income and that everybody with income should pay something with that something being very little for low income people. But an argument against sales tax is not equivalent to demanding a reevaluation of prop 13 protected Granny homes. Appreciate, however, your admission your position is immoral.

Also, by allowing the states to set their own tax methodologies, we have created a race to the bottom to attract businesses over quality of life. Who would live in the dump Republican states were it not for low business taxes or offer jobs with no union protection.

 

[Vic]

I own a home in CA. Lived in it for 30 years. During that time many of my neighbors have sold their homes for a lot of money and that justifies my taxes increasing? That increased value hasn't put a cent into my pocket, it hasn't increased my income, it hasn't improved my quality of life.
When I purchased my home I knew what I was paying for the house and the taxes, and I could just afford it. The idea that the state is entitled to tax based perceived value is insane.

Taxing people out of their homes so they can be sold to wealthy people is absurd. And what happens to folks who's homes have decreased in value? Does the state refund all of the overpaid taxes? Is the state going to guarantee the value of my home?

Hey pal, if you've owned a home in CA for 30 years, where you could probably sell it for 1k times what you paid for it, and property taxes and not a mortgage are your biggest foreclosure threat, then you are - by every definition of the word - a wealthy person.

 

[Vic]

Do any other states have a similar Prop 13? Are people being taxed out of their homes elsewhere due to no Prop 13 protecting them?

Not sure if this was mentioned but aren’t all property taxes used for school and local municipal? So people can lock in their taxes on their property with Prop 13? I guess teachers, police, fire, etc.don’t get pay raises or budgets never increase in CA.
If everyone’s property tax was assessed every year, wouldn’t that help average out those that don’t have it increase vs those that pay a larger amount because they just moved in?

No, no states have anything like Prop 13. Because Prop 13 is stupid. No one is being taxed out of their home. That myth needs to stop. These people bought a house for $35k that's now worth $3.5mm, which they could cash out at any time. And those teachers, police, fire, etc are living on some insane CALPERS or CALSTRS full pension, with crazy generous COLAs, and are trying to evade the same taxes everyone else pays by complaining about how rich they are. Seriously.

 

[woolfe9998]

Your numbers are off by a lot but I understand the point you are trying to make.
I’m just guessing but if someone buys land, there is zero point in not developing it just because you’ll end up paying a lot more in property taxes when if you don’t develope it you’ll still be paying taxes on it but instead of being able to sell it for a hefty profit or live in it or use it for rental property, or get any value out of it, it will just be an anchor around your neck. So I don’t see how that could be common thinking with a significant number of vacant lots.

Then again, Americans have proven that they aren’t very smart.

I think there may be a certain inertial resistance to doing things which are a lot of hassle. Keeping property vacant is hassle free.

When you own a vacant property, the property taxes are practically your only expense. I don't think you even need insurance to cover a vacant lot. And if you do, it would be very cheap. And no maintenance costs. Property taxes are basically it. So if property taxes are practically nil, the property has close to zero carrying costs, so you can just sit on the property and watch it appreciate.

If, OTOH, you consider developing it, you have to a hire a contractor/developer and pay a ton of money to do it, or else take out a big bank loan. So why not just sit on it for awhile? Maybe in 20 years you'll have the money and/or inclination to develop it, or eventually you can sell it to someone who will. I don't think this logic prevails in most cases, but I can definitely seeing it prevail in some cases.

Not a big point, but I don't think my numbers are that far off. I know my family home was assessed at $90K in 1978 when prop13 passed. $30K sounds like a reasonable estimate of what the raw land would have cost without improvements. And I also know the property was worth $1.5 million in 2017. The point being, the difference between the property taxes on raw land in 1978 versus improved land today is enormous, and hence, so is the difference in property taxes.

 

[A///]

California loses those who can't afford to live here. There may be some wealthy people who move out, but these are wealthy people and middle class who aren't conservative for the most part. They propagate in states such as Texas, Arizona, the Carolinas (lots of datacenter jobs that pay extremely well for the region), etc. and will forever change the political landscape there. It's the California Master Plan TM.

 

[IronWing]

California loses those who can't afford to live here. There may be some wealthy people who move out, but these are wealthy people and middle class who aren't conservative for the most part. They propagate in states such as Texas, Arizona, the Carolinas (lots of datacenter jobs that pay extremely well for the region), etc. and will forever change the political landscape there. It's the California Master Plan TM.

Except that the California transplants aren’t particularly liberal when it comes to their own personal money.

 

[A///]

Except that the California transplants aren’t particularly liberal when it comes to their own personal money.

That would be fiscal politics and not reflecting on their personal political ideology. Regardless of that, the states welcoming Californian expats are sitting on a ticking time bomb when it comes to their bottom line. You don't need bleeding heart liberals to change state demographics. Even a centrist majority is a massive threat to these deep red states or regions.

 

[himkhan]

LOL at the 3rd world shithole that Texas is. You can't help but be a shithole with S1, Texas hiker, Taj... 3 'libertarian' posing as Republican Victim Class Warriors, 1 mirror. The amount of dumb fuck oozing out of that trilogy assures O2 thievery the likes of which have never been seen.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

LOL at the 3rd world shithole that Texas is. You can't help but be a shithole with S1, Texas hiker, Taj... 3 'libertarian' posing as Republican Victim Class Warriors, 1 mirror. The amount of dumb fuck oozing out of that trilogy assures O2 thievery the likes of which have never been seen.

Yeah nothing says 3rd world shithole like people flocking to your area from all over lol you halfwit imbecile.