How do car dealers make money selling at or around invoice?

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Apparently a lot of cars are going now for less than invoice. Even when times are good it's possible to get them at invoice plus a few hundred, in some cases.

So, where does the dealer get his money? It can't be from maintenance, especially since dealers are more than happy to sell a car to somebody out of town who will never show up again.

I'm inclined to think that invoice is not really what they pay; what they pay is invoice but later submit a report to the manufacturer of the cars they've sold and get a rebate back, so even if you buy at $500 under invoice, they may get a rebate of a couple thousand on a car so they still make money.

Is this right?
 

Vette73

Lifer
Jul 5, 2000
21,503
8
0
Invoice is what they pay, but they also get kickbacks for selling cars. Kinda like a factory rebate to the dealer. That and they also make money on the intrest part of the deal. So lose $500 on car price but make over $2000 on the loan.

I know GM and others also add if you sell X number of cars you get Y number of the new car that everybody wants. I remember when the C6 came out that dealers were selling C5's at a lose to get more C6's.
 

rh71

No Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
52,856
1,048
126
There are factory-to-dealer rebates that you never hear about. Whenever a dealer is willing to give you invoice, they are not doing it out of the kindness of their hearts - they have wiggle room with that rebate provided to them so that they can still make some profit - either that or get you to buy that warranty or addon accessory that have crazy markups. Currently there are a lot of offers to get remaining 08 vehicles off their lots so they can either reduce overhead or make room for [fewer] 09s or both. It has gotten so bad that some dealers made the news when they offered buy 1-get-1-free (SUV + econobox, SUV + SUV) which tells you something about their profit margins and what they were able to work with, but they can only sustain the lower margins for so long as they do have overhead and many have shut down or downsized. I can tell you straight from the mouth of a BMW Internet Mgr that there is about a 6.5% gross profit made on a vehicle like an X5 which after all their internal fees and expenditures & personnel involved is not all that impressive.
 

Chunkee

Lifer
Jul 28, 2002
10,391
1
81
Originally posted by: rh71
There are factory-to-dealer rebates that you never hear about. Whenever a dealer is willing to give you invoice, they are not doing it out of the kindness of their hearts - they have wiggle room with that rebate provided to them so that they can still make some profit - either that or get you to buy that warranty or addon accessory that have crazy markups. Currently there are a lot of offers to get remaining 08 vehicles off their lots so they can either reduce overhead or make room for [fewer] 09s or both. It has gotten so bad that some dealers made the news when they offered buy 1-get-1-free (SUV + econobox, SUV + SUV) which tells you something about their profit margins and what they were able to work with, but they can only sustain the lower margins for so long as they do have overhead and many have shut down or downsized. I can tell you straight from the mouth of a BMW Internet Mgr that there is about a 6.5% gross profit made on a vehicle like an X5 which after all their internal fees and expenditures & personnel involved is not all that impressive.

This is true...trust me...they are making money...mostly by moving them out...but mind you..they are still asshats...they make money on used....low ball the living shit out of you, sell it for 4grand more than they gave you and add all their bullshit fees...

i used to sell...i know... i quit after 3 months....it is disgusting the tactics used and how they treat people. there should be a way to purchase a car without a dealership...buy from factory for something like that. bottom feeders.
 

Horsepower

Senior member
Oct 9, 1999
963
1
0
In defense of the dealers, they pay interest on millions of dollars to have the cars on the lot. It also takes hundreds of thousands to open and close the doors every month. The salesperson gets 20% of the profit, closer 8%, and finance whatever they can mark up the interest. Dealers rely on impulse buying, because most people wait to the last second to replace a vehicle.

If you can find a good honest buying consultant (broker) to assist, you are better off. They get a small commission, but protect you from the upsell. Take some time, do some comparisons, then make a decision.
 

lupohki

Golden Member
Oct 11, 1999
1,925
0
0
I think the OP is only interested in the initial transaction, so I'm not going to count parts and service. Besides, you don't have to return to the dealership that you bought car at anyway.

Let's say you're doing a straight cash deal with no financing or trade in, then the two sources of profit for the dealership for selling at invoice is dealer holdback and factory to dealer incentives.

There may not be any dealer incentives and they can vary a lot. Look at edmunds.com for info on current dealer incentives.

Dealer holdback is a percentage of the MSRP that the dealer gets from the factory after selling the car. It's basically a way for the factory to pay for the dealer's interest or cost of keeping the car on the lot. The percentage varies between makes.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Originally posted by: lupohki
I think the OP is only interested in the initial transaction, so I'm not going to count parts and service. Besides, you don't have to return to the dealership that you bought car at anyway.

Let's say you're doing a straight cash deal with no financing or trade in, then the two sources of profit for the dealership for selling at invoice is dealer holdback and factory to dealer incentives.

There may not be any dealer incentives and they can vary a lot. Look at edmunds.com for info on current dealer incentives.

Dealer holdback is a percentage of the MSRP that the dealer gets from the factory after selling the car. It's basically a way for the factory to pay for the dealer's interest or cost of keeping the car on the lot. The percentage varies between makes.
It must be one of those two.

 

BassBomb

Diamond Member
Nov 25, 2005
8,396
1
81
Invoice is not what they pay.
You can find out online from some websites at the actual cost dealers pay, vs the invoice price
 

Pacfanweb

Lifer
Jan 2, 2000
13,149
57
91
No dealer actually PAYS invoice for their stock units.

Holdback, as mentioned before. It's extra money the manufacturer includes for various costs...advertising, floorplan, etc.

So the longer a car sits on the lot, the less the dealer makes on it, because it eats into the holdback.

Now, when you see cars advertised for "under invoice", that just means there is a manufacturer rebate on the car.

Sometimes when they're trying to move old units, such as leftovers from the previous year, the manufacturer will help out by paying the salesmen a flat fee...which will encourage the dealer to cut the price to the REAL price, which is invoice minus holdback, to move the unit.

The salesmen are motivated to be okay with this because they are getting paid anyway.

Example: In 2002 I was in internet sales at a very large Ford dealer. We had some 2001 Focuses left over. Ford came to us and said they'd pay a 200.00 dollar "spiff" on those units.

A salesman typically gets 20% or so of the profit on a new vehicle. "Profit" is defined (at least at that dealership) as, however much over the REAL cost you sold it for. Not how much over invoice, but how much over the invoice price minus the holdback.

THAT price, at least on a Ford product, is known as "Memo". That's how it's listed on the invoice.
Less expensive cars have less markup.....therefore, you don't make as much money.
Well, the profit on a Focus if you sold the damn thing for sticker was hardly enough to make you much more than the 200 bucks Ford was giving us, so we were eager to sell them for "Memo"......and customers were eager to buy them at that price. Win/Win.

We sold cars for memo all the time, especially at the end of the month or if they were pushing a certain model.

What sucked was, if you were competing with another dealer, and to get the sale the manager chopped your deal to memo when there WASN'T a spiff on that model. Memo deal means there's no profit, which means no commission....and all we got was a flat 50 bucks for those deals.
And the hell of it was, customers who got those deals were almost always the biggest pains in the ass, and were the ones you had to do the most work to get the sale.


More about invoice sales:

Didn't bother me at all to sell a more expensive vehicle, (over 30k) like an Expedition or a decked-out F-150 for the invoice price. That would still be approximately a 12-1500 dollar deal because there was so much more holdback on the more expensive models. So you could make 2-300 bucks on an invoice sale of one of those vehicles, and the customers were typically easier to get financing for, whereas your Focus-type customers tended to be second-chance finance or first-time buyers.
 

rh71

No Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
52,856
1,048
126
^ how often did these vehicles sell when you made $200-300 each on them?
 

Pacfanweb

Lifer
Jan 2, 2000
13,149
57
91
Originally posted by: rh71
^ how often did these vehicles sell when you made $200-300 each on them?
Back then they were selling pretty well.

I preferred to sell used cars, though. They paid us 25% of the profit, and what I did was find out which models were the ones that they had "stolen" at auction. Try and sell them, you give the customer a great deal, and you still make good money.


The fun ones were when the 2002 T-Birds came out. We sold them for 5,000 dollar OVER sticker, and we couldn't get enough of them. Some places sold them for 10k over sticker.

 

MikeMike

Lifer
Feb 6, 2000
45,885
66
91
Originally posted by: Pacfanweb
Originally posted by: rh71
^ how often did these vehicles sell when you made $200-300 each on them?
Back then they were selling pretty well.

I preferred to sell used cars, though. They paid us 25% of the profit, and what I did was find out which models were the ones that they had "stolen" at auction. Try and sell them, you give the customer a great deal, and you still make good money.


The fun ones were when the 2002 T-Birds came out. We sold them for 5,000 dollar OVER sticker, and we couldn't get enough of them. Some places sold them for 10k over sticker.

see, now adays, many dealers will only pay you commission based upon the sale price vs. invoice. not including H/B/

i know GM invoices... on them there are the following different prices
GMU, this is supplier price, some cars it is above invoice, some below.
GMS, this is employee price, always below invoice
H/B Hold back, it is what the dealer will be paid once the car is sold.
adv 267, advertising fee that dealers in certain regions must pay so they are sponsored on the local ads.

now, there are vehicles that get additional money, sometimes you get 267 (i think thats the number, its at the bottom of an invoice on gm) back as well.

 

sindows

Golden Member
Dec 11, 2005
1,193
0
0
Well the general population generally sucks at haggling so dealers can make a decent profit per car. Where they really make money is with used cars.
 

Horsepower

Senior member
Oct 9, 1999
963
1
0
Originally posted by: Thump553
Horsepower-where and how do you find a legit consultant?

Check web and yellow pages for "automobiles brokers". Get a few names of satisfied clients, and confirm with them. If they have belonged to a referral organization (like BNI.com) for years, they can't help but be legit.
 
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