How do middle class people afford international vacationing?

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Golgatha

Lifer
Jul 18, 2003
12,680
1,597
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The problem is that people on AT don't fit those percentages. We have more like 30%+in upper middle class, 60% in middle class, etc. The view is skewed.

Back when I was middle class and now in upper-middle, not much for me changed. More money in savings for the most part. I think this is why most people don't see a difference between middle and upper middle outside of the extreme highs and lows.

Biggest difference I've noticed is that I have a new car a lot sooner. I don't buy stuff that I don't think is worth the tag and when my income goes up $10k or whatever, that's usually just money in the bank. I've already become used to not having that $10k.

I honestly don't know what I'd do different at $500k/yr. Maybe retire earlier.

I'm in the same boat. The main difference I've seen in my neighborhood is people complaining about mortgage payment taking up a large part of their paycheck (probably due to a small amount down on the house).

The other difference? When I got a new car late last year; the conversations I had with neighbors. Several neighbors were shocked that I wrote a check for it. Many of them have nicer vehicles, but I've heard at least a couple talk about what they're planning to do when their lease is up. Nothing wrong with leasing if your priority is to have a new shiny vehicle every 3 years I suppose. But I'm a weirdo. I've only had a car payment once in my life, and that's because I was very young (19 and in college), my car was totaled, and I found an excellent deal from a friend of my dad on a replacement car. Took out a $1,700 loan and paid it off within a year. My dad was good with money, but my mom was horrible (parents divorced when I was 2 years old largely over money issues). I decided, at a very young age, I was NOT going to live paycheck to paycheck and/or live beyond my means.
 
Nov 8, 2012
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My wife comes from a family that would travel internationally quite often, so I've been feeling guilty and pricing out vacations (for reference, growing up we'd only vacation domestically other than one trip back to my parent's homeland, and I didn't go to Europe until I could afford it on my own) - trip packages to Euro destinations for a couple are in the $5,000 - $9,000 range!

Now most of my peers make a similar salary range yet they all seem to travel like crazy, it's something I wonder about - how are they dropping upwards of 10% of their annual income often times multiple times a year (in NYC, where rent is already up to 50% of your income) - is everyone going into massive debt (my friends aren't huge savers based on the amount they spend dining and drinking out), or is there something I'm not getting? My wife's not demanding anything by the way, I just feel bad and am starting that jar.

When vacationing internationally, all you need is the plane tickets. It costs ~$1k to travel just about anywhere internationally. After you are there, you have no requirements. Need a place to sleep? Quit going for $300/night Disney Resorts, stay in a hostel.

Need to eat a meal? Keep it cheap, it's a way to eat genuine food - yet keep the budget down.

Lastly, the American lower to middle class is stupid. Where do you think the national credit card debt comes from? Always 1 step behind while people like myself and other ATOTs are one step ahead.
 

Naeeldar

Senior member
Aug 20, 2001
854
1
81
That is different but to me that is just looking to spend money because you have it. I don't blame them, don't get me wrong, but you can't realistically use 3 houses efficiently (outside of renting them out). I guess it depends how big the houses are.

College tuition I can see though. Good for him.

It's all relative. My father own's his own business so they probably spend a total of 80 days there a year for trips - it's basically his golf home. Efficient? Probably not as they upgraded from the condo but they love it down there and like being able to have friends/family come visit. As for NJ shore home - definitely not efficient but that again relates to family. Most of my siblings struggle to come visit in florida or some of the other vacations we do. They like the aspect of everybody being able to come down in the summer especially with grandkids. Besides you don't really lose money on property as a rule so it's just an investment. But that was my point about where the extra money would go. You'll spend it on properties or grand retirements etc..

And yeah we are lucky to have a father like that. He wants his grandkids to have same opportunity we do and outside of me it's unlikely any of them will be able to afford college for their kids. As he said we are the first generation to probably do worse than the previous generation - at least as a whole.
 

purbeast0

No Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
52,927
5,797
126
Agreed.

You guys who think saving every spare dime so you can retire early and not enjoy life now are making huge mistakes. It is all about balance.

i truly do not understand the mindset of people who "save save save" and won't even spend a dime to take a nice vacation every now and then, even if it means $5k less in their retirement fund.
 

Golgatha

Lifer
Jul 18, 2003
12,680
1,597
126
Agreed.

You guys who think saving every spare dime so you can retire early and not enjoy life now are making huge mistakes. It is all about balance.

I've come to the same conclusion recently. Don't know why it hit me at 35 years old, but for some reason it really hit me that I could have all the money in the world at 65-70 years old, and I would probably not enjoy it at all if I hadn't really lived during these next 30-35 years. Also, my oldest son just turned 10. In 11 short years (my youngest is almost 7), I'll most likely be an empty nester. I'll trade a little money for more time with them.

Also, that's assuming I get there. We had a close female friend get killed in a car crash at 30 years old just last week. I'm sure her widowed husband doesn't give two shits about her 401k that he gets to cash out with no penalty, and how that money could compound over the years to give him a bigger retirement.

I don't believe in spending money you can't afford to spend (i.e. basic needs aren't being met because you bought something you wanted), but whether you save more for retirement, put money away for your kids college, or go on a trip; there's really no right or wrong way to spend it. Your money expenditures will show you where your real priorities are for sure though.
 
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purbeast0

No Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
52,927
5,797
126
When vacationing internationally, all you need is the plane tickets. It costs ~$1k to travel just about anywhere internationally. After you are there, you have no requirements. Need a place to sleep? Quit going for $300/night Disney Resorts, stay in a hostel.

Need to eat a meal? Keep it cheap, it's a way to eat genuine food - yet keep the budget down.

Lastly, the American lower to middle class is stupid. Where do you think the national credit card debt comes from? Always 1 step behind while people like myself and other ATOTs are one step ahead.

that is a very stupid assumption to make.
 
Nov 8, 2012
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that is a very stupid assumption to make.

I didn't mean ANYWHERE anywhere. I mean any typical tourist destination. Any Europe country, Russia, Austrailia, South America - possibilities are endless.

And yes. $1k is VERY reasonable, I've seen trips to Europe as low as $600.

Anyhow, I have to deal with a fiancee that likes to travel a lot. I was never the type, so it's new to me. However, I hold the pants as far as money is concerned.

My top priority list:
1) Eliminate all debt outside of Mortgage IE. School (Check)
2) Pay off a good chunk of mortgage with Extra principle, to the point where it cuts a good amount of interest for the remainder of the loan
3) Maximize 401k every year
4) Get through Wedding Budget
5) Start saving for kids
6) Always retain emergency savings
 
Mar 15, 2003
12,669
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OP: if you want me to help you plan a European vacation on a budget, just PM me. Would be happy to help.

I just may, thanks for the offer! Wife's preggers right now so the follow up will be in a bit (and we don't plan on traveling internationally with a baby, from New York to the Mid-West with our toddler was stressful enough!)

Thanks for all of the replies and advice, starting our jar now to save up for maybe Amsterdam or Rome in a year. Any good resources (other than google) for research on best times to fly and all that? Any mags or blogs to follow for deal announcements?

Also will look into credit cards with miles, but I'm personally pretty wary of credit cards. All it took was one lay off for me to totally screw up my credit in the past and it took a few good years to repair the damage, I wonder if there's a bank/debit card out there with point?
 
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purbeast0

No Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
52,927
5,797
126
I didn't mean ANYWHERE anywhere. I mean any typical tourist destination. Any Europe country, Russia, Austrailia, South America - possibilities are endless.

And yes. $1k is VERY reasonable, I've seen trips to Europe as low as $600.

Anyhow, I have to deal with a fiancee that likes to travel a lot. I was never the type, so it's new to me. However, I hold the pants as far as money is concerned.

My top priority list:
1) Eliminate all debt outside of Mortgage IE. School (Check)
2) Pay off a good chunk of mortgage with Extra principle, to the point where it cuts a good amount of interest for the remainder of the loan
3) Maximize 401k every year
4) Get through Wedding Budget
5) Start saving for kids
6) Always retain emergency savings

totally depends where you live. i can get to many "typical" tourist destinations from here on the east coast for $200 - $400 easily. bahamas flights can be found for $200 - $250. cancun or aruba can be found for $400 - $500 easily. europe can be found for $600 - $800.

Because $5k less now can mean $500k less later

$500k you will be too old to enjoy when you are older, if you even make it to live long enough to see it. and yeah i realize that $500k is a totally skewed number but i get your point. thankfully i'm in a position where i can do both.
 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
49,606
166
111
www.slatebrookfarm.com
If you really think about the OP's question - there are other questions (OP is NYC, right?)
How about "how does a middle class couple each afford a pack a day cigarette habit?" In NYC, it's about $13-$14 a pack. So, for 2, let's say $27 per day. That's $9855 per year for smoking. Or, if each has half a pack a day, nearly $5k per year for that habit.

Or, how about people who have that $5 latte at Starbucks every.single.day.of.the.workweek. That's $1k/year just for coffee. Again, I'd say "I don't know how people afford that." But, really, I do - they just prioritize coffee a lot higher than I do as far as things they're willing to purchase just for enjoyment. Ditto cars - how do so many of the people afford such nice cars? They can't. Well, they can - if they prioritize the car as being more important to spend their money on than other things that I'd rather spend money on. I'd rather buy a nice new kayak paddle in April for $100, a $100 in new fishing equipment in May, a $100 new tube to tow behind the boat in June, an extra $100 to spend on vacation in July, an extra $100 to spend in August on vacation, an extra $100 to spend on hunting equipment in September, etc.; than be driving a car that cost $100 more per month to drive.
 
Nov 8, 2012
20,828
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totally depends where you live. i can get to many "typical" tourist destinations from here on the east coast for $200 - $400 easily. bahamas flights can be found for $200 - $250. cancun or aruba can be found for $400 - $500 easily. europe can be found for $600 - $800.

... I think we got a little confused here, when I said ~$1000, what I actually MEANT to say is traveling anywhere costs < $1000.00... yeah, I didn't mean to say it was expensive.
 

purbeast0

No Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
52,927
5,797
126
... I think we got a little confused here, when I said ~$1000, what I actually MEANT to say is traveling anywhere costs < $1000.00... yeah, I didn't mean to say it was expensive.

oooh gotcha, yeah i thought you were saying approximately $1k.
 

Imported

Lifer
Sep 2, 2000
14,679
23
81
Marking for later. A few good tips about travel I've read.. GF wants to travel to Europe next year or the following year.
 

Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
20,429
3,533
126
Any good resources (other than google) for research on best times to fly and all that? Any mags or blogs to follow for deal announcements?

Also will look into credit cards with miles, but I'm personally pretty wary of credit cards. All it took was one lay off for me to totally screw up my credit in the past and it took a few good years to repair the damage, I wonder if there's a bank/debit card out there with point?

There is a ton of information at http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/

Generally the off peak times to Europe will be in the late fall to early spring but varies by destination and company. For example: American Airlines has a very generous definition of 'off peak' from October 15th to May 15th with frequent sales and the beloved 'off peak award' pricing. Sadly, availability of these has been drying up so they are a bit tough to snag. US Air has a bit more flights but their off peak is January 15 - Feb 28th (or thereabouts)

Also - something to consider is places in southern Europe are often popular destinations for northern european residents in the winter. I forget when and where exactly but there are a couple of places in Spain that get over run with Brits during a couple of dates so even though its in the general late fall to early spring those time frames will be peak travel times for those cities.

ITA Airfare search is also a very powerful tool if your travel times and locations are flexible. (ie: I want to know the cheapest airport to fly into within 2000 miles of Paris). The biggest downside is a lot of the smaller carriers aren't on it so there are some regional flight options you won't find on it (ie: Easyjet, Ryanair)
http://matrix.itasoftware.com/

There really aren't any debit cards that generate a lot of points. Suntrust has a Delta card but delta points suck for transatlantic flights and you don't get very many. Alaskan Airlines also has a point earning debit card but don't have a large network to Europe to make then user friendly either

United points are generally the easiest to use (a combination of network, pricing and availability) and, if the saver awards are available, those run about 60,000 round trip per person
 

Excelsior

Lifer
May 30, 2002
19,048
18
81
There are so many variables here, but first you don't book "packages". Secondly, if you don't have significant debt or are house poor, you just save enough. I've done four international trips in the last 2 years, all 7 days or more (including 11 individual flights for one of the trips) and I make around 60K a year. It isn't that hard. In fact, getting time off of work is more difficult. I also paid for all of these trips without taking on debt. Now they were very different. One was with a GF to Spain, and we stayed at nice places and ate very well. I probably spent $2500 over 12 days, but I planned well and saved where I could. Also did Argentina for 11 days, and piggy backed Miami on that for 4 days. I probably spent $3200 on that trip. but I stayed at hostels or B&Bs and didn't spend too much on food (the exchange rate helps). Peru for 10 days, $2100 (again, a cheap place once you get there).

There is an art to travel...when you book, how and where you book, and how.
 

Doppel

Lifer
Feb 5, 2011
13,306
3
0
i truly do not understand the mindset of people who "save save save" and won't even spend a dime to take a nice vacation every now and then, even if it means $5k less in their retirement fund.
I don't, either. However, the good news is there are damn few of them. For every person saving madly for retirement at huge current expense there are 10 who are saving virtually nothing. Average retirement fund is pathetic because people live balls to the wall.
When vacationing internationally, all you need is the plane tickets. It costs ~$1k to travel just about anywhere internationally. After you are there, you have no requirements. Need a place to sleep? Quit going for $300/night Disney Resorts, stay in a hostel.
Really? I've stayed in a couple of hostels and the idea of paying a bunch of money to fly to Europe and then sleep in a place shittier than my college dorm room on vacation just doesn't appeal to me whatsoever. That crappiness is compounded with kids.
 

rh71

No Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
52,856
1,048
126
there was a thread elsewhere that had numerous people agreeing that middle class can't afford Disney anymore either. Over $3k for less than a week. It cost us $4300 and we didn't even have lunch at the park everyday or live in the resort.

I will say that a lot of people (middle class) do not know how to save properly to begin with.
 
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vshah

Lifer
Sep 20, 2003
19,003
24
81
we saved a ton of money using airbnb vs hotels when we went to paris earlier this year.
penthouse apartment overlooking eiffel tower for $220/night.

wife being vegetarian made it easy to avoid expensive food. breakfast was pastries/croissant at any bakery. we spent <$40 on food per day. total for a 10 day trip including premium economy tickets was <$9k. We probably won't do another trip like that for a few years at least though. We take annual trips to india to visit family which takes up most of the travel budget, the rest we use for weekend trips around the states.
 

M0oG0oGaiPan

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 2000
7,858
2
0
digitalgamedeals.com
a good strategy helps. buying cheap domestic tickets and using points for international travel. off season, midweek flights. hostels. couch surfing.

there's also woofing. (World Wide Opportunities on Organic Farms). WWOOF is an exchange - In return for volunteer help, WWOOF hosts offer food, accommodation and opportunities to learn about organic lifestyles.
 

Colt45

Lifer
Apr 18, 2001
19,721
1
0
I've gone to europe a few times, fairly affordably. The plane was definitely the largest cost.

Depends where you go, though. I'd usually go to the balkans, where food is cheaper than here. Rooms are pretty cheap there, but we'd spend most of our time in tents (which doesn't work in winter). I've got some family there too, which makes a pretty big difference, though, as we'd stay with them part of the time.

Car rental was the number two expense, I think i'd probably just buy an ancient diesel merc next time, if I'd be there for a few months.
 

crashtestdummy

Platinum Member
Feb 18, 2010
2,893
0
0
As others have said, I think a lot of it has to do with the standard by which you travel.

The price of the flights to Europe are more or less fixed at $1K/person. You can't really avoid that. Everything else, though, is on a sliding scale. Staying in Hotels and eating at sit-down restaurants will run you $300-400 a day, depending on the city, for a couple. If you stay at hostels and eat cheap food, that price drops to $100/day. You can go even lower than that, though. When we were driving around the Norwegian countryside on our honeymoon, we stayed in cabins at commercial campsites ($40/day) and cooked our own food ($10/day). We could have spent even less camping (free), but felt like splurging. (We also could have taken buses instead of renting a car.)

My point is that a lot of what you can afford has to do with what you expect. I think most people want to re-create the Europe they see in movies, in which case you really are stuck with that high price tag. If you view Europe as a place like any other, though, you can get around quite cheaply once you're there.
 

Sheep

Golden Member
Jun 13, 2006
1,275
0
71
As others have said, I think a lot of it has to do with the standard by which you travel.

The price of the flights to Europe are more or less fixed at $1K/person. You can't really avoid that. Everything else, though, is on a sliding scale. Staying in Hotels and eating at sit-down restaurants will run you $300-400 a day, depending on the city, for a couple. If you stay at hostels and eat cheap food, that price drops to $100/day. You can go even lower than that, though. When we were driving around the Norwegian countryside on our honeymoon, we stayed in cabins at commercial campsites ($40/day) and cooked our own food ($10/day). We could have spent even less camping (free), but felt like splurging. (We also could have taken buses instead of renting a car.)

My point is that a lot of what you can afford has to do with what you expect. I think most people want to re-create the Europe they see in movies, in which case you really are stuck with that high price tag. If you view Europe as a place like any other, though, you can get around quite cheaply once you're there.

I'm shocked it took 5 pages of responses for someone to mention alternate types of lodging which are generally the biggest international trip costs next to airfare. If you're visiting cities, you can save a ton of money by staying in hostels and B&Bs/pensions instead of hotels. If you're a couple you can get a slightly more expensive private room and avoid the dorms too. The two hostels I stayed in in Vienna and Rome were nicer than some hotels I've stayed in while being like a quarter of the price of mid-range hotels in those cities. The only splurging we really did was on dinner and I still spent only about $3,500 on a 13 day trip including airfare, trains (unless you're going to the countryside or need to get out of the city center, car rentals in Europe make zero sense), lodging and all other expenses in five different cities/areas (Rome, Cinque Terre, Venice, Vienna and Berlin).
 
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