How do vegans get low density lipids?

[Naer]

How exactly?

 

[Ventanni]

I'm going to skip the passive "may reduce risk" and "appears to reduce" language and get right to the point.

A proper vegan diet enjoys substantially reduced risk of heart disease, high blood pressure, high cholesterol, diabetes, Alzheimer's, obesity, colon cancer, and cancer rates in general. In fact, the top 15 killers of Americans every year are almost, but not entirely, eliminated among true vegan populations. And interestingly, the populations within the United States that have the longest average lifespans are the Seventh-Day Adventists; thanks in large part to their belief in sticking to a plant based diet. That's not to say that vegans don't have their own challenges, but it is safe to say that Americans eat waaaaaay too much meat. If we ever want to realistically tackle our exorbitant health care costs, it's going to have to start by what we purchase at the grocery store.

On a site note, I did recently go vegan. My wife decided to go vegan in her struggle to lose weight, so to simplify things and support her, I went with her. I have to say that the overall experience has been wonderful. It's been a lot of fun, and I feel great. I'm thinking about posting my experience more in depth here on these forums, but it's been a really engaging and enjoyable experience. If you're willing to cook and aren't grossed out by anything and everything green, then I highly recommend it.

 

[J.Wilkins]

How exactly?

Your body makes LDL all on it's own and will balance it if you get too little or too much.

 

[J.Wilkins]

I'm going to skip the passive "may reduce risk" and "appears to reduce" language and get right to the point.

A proper vegan diet enjoys substantially reduced risk of heart disease, high blood pressure, high cholesterol, diabetes, Alzheimer's, obesity, colon cancer, and cancer rates in general. In fact, the top 15 killers of Americans every year are almost, but not entirely, eliminated among true vegan populations. And interestingly, the populations within the United States that have the longest average lifespans are the Seventh-Day Adventists; thanks in large part to their belief in sticking to a plant based diet. That's not to say that vegans don't have their own challenges, but it is safe to say that Americans eat waaaaaay too much meat. If we ever want to realistically tackle our exorbitant health care costs, it's going to have to start by what we purchase at the grocery store.

On a site note, I did recently go vegan. My wife decided to go vegan in her struggle to lose weight, so to simplify things and support her, I went with her. I have to say that the overall experience has been wonderful. It's been a lot of fun, and I feel great. I'm thinking about posting my experience more in depth here on these forums, but it's been a really engaging and enjoyable experience. If you're willing to cook and aren't grossed out by anything and everything green, then I highly recommend it.

The same has been shown for 100% meat diets. I would love to see some actual studies on the lifespan of SDA's being significantly longer than other groups who are also not over eating (you can't compare 1000Kcal a day lean people to morbidly obese people for obvious reasons).

In reality it has less to do with what you eat than how much you eat and apart from saturated fatty acids or high amount of fructose (as in too much fruit/veggies) there is no real problem with any diet as long as you don't get too much of it.

Personally I'm on a ketogenic diet after injuring my leg and gaining BF% like crazy eating as I used to. It works great for me.

 

[Ventanni]

I did very well on keto as well. It was a lot of fun.

 

[Ventanni]

I used to buy these amazing pork chop sirloins from Sam's Club when I was on Keto. I was in Heaven eating those things! I think my mistake was not buying more, because once they sold out, I was never able to find them again. That was, by far, the biggest highlight to Keto, haha.

Now that I've experienced both diets and have done my research on each one, I'd say that my individual preference goes to vegan. And no, not the militant, unbearable to hang around vegan, but just a simple fruit, vegetable, nut, and grain rich diet. I feel better, I have more options, and it's far more budget friendly. I also realized that on a societal level, vegan is environmentally sustainable, whereas keto is not. Keto did teach me the importance of grain fed cattle and so on, but ultimately to do it right, you need approximately 2 acres per head of cattle. That figure is reduced if you feed them corn, but that's what we want to avoid. With the right farming techniques (ie, not industrialized monocrop), that same 2 acres can support enough fruits, nuts, vegetables, and grains to feed several families throughout the year. It's also carbon sequestering, doesn't kill off the bees, and a more efficient use of land.

And so looking at this from the big picture. I realize this is where I lose people on message boards, but just hear me out. Everything has a cost; nothing is free. In the coming years, the US and the West will be faced with several highly expensive issues that it must tackle: Repairing our infrastructure, maintaining our innovative lead, increased military spending to match our neighbors, rising health care costs, and environmental conservation (climate change). We have the resources to tackle one or two of those issues, but not all at the same time. I'm pretty sure that both of us Keto and Vegan lovers can agree that the rise in health care costs and decline in the general health in this nation is directly related to the food we put in our body. When you've got people who adopt either a pure vegan or pure keto lifestyle, and suddenly they're dropping weight, their doctor, and the 20 prescriptions they're on, that should be telling us something.

The reality is, we pay for it. In fact, about 28% of the total 2017 US budget ($1.03 trillion) last year went towards medical costs. And while that figure cannot be eliminated, it can be reduced by a factor of hundreds of billions of dollars. For that money, we could be landing on Mars. But, we're not. We're treating heart failure because someone couldn't keep their hands out of the Doritos bag.

 

[magomago]

The same has been shown for 100% meat diets. I would love to see some actual studies on the lifespan of SDA's being significantly longer than other groups who are also not over eating (you can't compare 1000Kcal a day lean people to morbidly obese people for obvious reasons).

In reality it has less to do with what you eat than how much you eat and apart from saturated fatty acids or high amount of fructose (as in too much fruit/veggies) there is no real problem with any diet as long as you don't get too much of it.

Personally I'm on a ketogenic diet after injuring my leg and gaining BF% like crazy eating as I used to. It works great for me.

There is no such thing as too much fruits and veggies. The overall direction of the last 50 years of nutrition research is very clear: more plants less meat for optimal health. Go look at any good meta analysis of topics, and you will find this to be true (try www.nutritionfacts.org)

I can't tell by 100% meat you mean literally eating only meat, or going low carb. Either way both are terrible for health in the long term.

 

[J.Wilkins]

There is no such thing as too much fruits and veggies. The overall direction of the last 50 years of nutrition research is very clear: more plants less meat for optimal health. Go look at any good meta analysis of topics, and you will find this to be true (try www.nutritionfacts.org)

I can't tell by 100% meat you mean literally eating only meat, or going low carb. Either way both are terrible for health in the long term.

OK, except science has been completely wrong for 50 odd years recommending high carb diets and you don't need studies to see that, you can just take a look at what has happened to a population that has taken the low fat/high carb recommendations to heart.

There low carb diets work better AND are a lot healthier for a great majority of people no matter what you think on the matter and there have been enough studies to confirm their health benefits.

Too much fruit/starchy veggies is no different from too straight sugar, they are not magical living things that transform the sugar content into something else, it's just sugar.

 

[PeterScott]

Too much fruit/starchy veggies is no different from too straight sugar, they are not magical living things that transform the sugar content into something else, it's just sugar.

It's not remotely the same thing. Try gorging on Apples and see how many you can eat. Compare how much sugar is in a glass of fruit juice.

The problem with sugar, is that it is concentrated to unnatural levels in fruit juice and processed food. It really shouldn't be a problem in natural food.

 

[magomago]

OK, except science has been completely wrong for 50 odd years recommending high carb diets and you don't need studies to see that, you can just take a look at what has happened to a population that has taken the low fat/high carb recommendations to heart.

There low carb diets work better AND are a lot healthier for a great majority of people no matter what you think on the matter and there have been enough studies to confirm their health benefits.

Too much fruit/starchy veggies is no different from too straight sugar, they are not magical living things that transform the sugar content into something else, it's just sugar.

Not at all - the standard american diet is nowhere near high carb diet; it is a very fat heavy diet; SAD is a diet that includes a lot of processed sugars to help deliver lots of fat.

Again there is no such thing as too much fruit or veggies.

 

[Kaido]

On a site note, I did recently go vegan. My wife decided to go vegan in her struggle to lose weight, so to simplify things and support her, I went with her. I have to say that the overall experience has been wonderful. It's been a lot of fun, and I feel great. I'm thinking about posting my experience more in depth here on these forums, but it's been a really engaging and enjoyable experience. If you're willing to cook and aren't grossed out by anything and everything green, then I highly recommend it.

Most people don't even realize how much they like "vegan" food. Probably 95% of the sides of most meals are plant-based.

btw, do you read Serious Eats? They just had an article on grilled cabbage: (substitute out vegan alternatives for the sauce for your diet, of course)

http://www.seriouseats.com/2014/09/food-lab-turbo-why-you-should-be-grilling-your-cabbage.html

On another tangent, have you heard of aquafaba before? If not, that's a separate topic, but check out this great vegan butter recipe:

http://plantepusherne.dk/vegan-aquafaba-butter/

And if you're not doing gluten-free vegan, have you done no-knead bread before? Another great & easy food item to cook!

 

[J.Wilkins]

It's not remotely the same thing. Try gorging on Apples and see how many you can eat. Compare how much sugar is in a glass of fruit juice.

The problem with sugar, is that it is concentrated to unnatural levels in fruit juice and processed food. It really shouldn't be a problem in natural food.

It's exactly the same thing and there isn't a natural fruit that you can buy in any store anymore, they have all been HEAVILY refined to contain 50-100X the sugar content of the original fruit.

Who the hell gorges on apples anyway and what would be the point of that when there is delicious and healthy protein to eat that contain actual nutrients that your body NEEDS?

Here's the kicker, there are 8 essential amino acids and two essential fatty acids but there is no such thing as an essential carbohydrate. There is such a thing as a horrible and poisonous carbohydrate though, fructose and you can probably guess where it got it's name.

Eat meat, fowl, fish and above ground veggies and you'll do a whole lot better. One bell pepper contains more vitamin C than an Orange but has 0g fructose.

It's a fact of life that too much fruit isn't good for you and that it's very easy to go very high calorie with fruit, especially since some idiots think the calories from fruits and veggies don't count.

1500Kcal fruit salad coming up.

 

[J.Wilkins]

Most people don't even realize how much they like "vegan" food. Probably 95% of the sides of most meals are plant-based.

btw, do you read Serious Eats? They just had an article on grilled cabbage: (substitute out vegan alternatives for the sauce for your diet, of course)

http://www.seriouseats.com/2014/09/food-lab-turbo-why-you-should-be-grilling-your-cabbage.html

On another tangent, have you heard of aquafaba before? If not, that's a separate topic, but check out this great vegan butter recipe:

http://plantepusherne.dk/vegan-aquafaba-butter/

And if you're not doing gluten-free vegan, have you done no-knead bread before? Another great & easy food item to cook!

I never realized how much I hate vegan foods until I tried it.

There is nothing natural about it either, vegan products are the most heavily refined products there are to pick from.

 

[PeterScott]

It's exactly the same thing and there isn't a natural fruit that you can buy in any store anymore, they have all been HEAVILY refined to contain 50-100X the sugar content of the original fruit.

What are you talking about?

An apple has about 10 grams of sugar, and the bowl of blueberries I had earlier had 12 grams. Divide by 100 and you would have a hard time measuring it.

Those are trivial amounts of sugar. Where is your sugar phobia coming from?

There is big difference from getting some sugar in fruit buffered by fiber, and soft drinks where you get instant absorption from drinking it liquid form. Or getting 10X as much in cookies and donuts.

Fruits also bring antioxidant, neuro-protective agents, anti-cancer factors.

Fruit is not a problem. Fruit is not refined. Fruit is a plant, full of unique nutrients, and fiber, that slows the release of the already trivial sugar.

It looks like you have a unnatural fear of fruit. Even the Paleo eaters are ok with Fruit:

https://ultimatepaleoguide.com/fruit-paleo/

All types of fruit are paleo because they are natural, unprocessed foods that have a lot of health benefits to offer, including disease-fighting antioxidants, vitamins, fiber, and phytonutrients.

The exact health benefits that a particular fruit provides depends on the fruit in question. For example, berries are very high in antioxidants, while apples are high in a special type of phytonutrients called pectin. Bananas are high in potassium. This is why it’s a good idea to eat a range of fruits. This way, you make sure you take advantage of the full range of benefits on offer.

 

[Kaido]

I never realized how much I hate vegan foods until I tried it.

There is nothing natural about it either, vegan products are the most heavily refined products there are to pick from.

Vegan products are a subset of vegan food. Vegan food is just no dairy/meat/honey/etc. So all veggies, greens, fruits, nuts, and so on are all technically "vegan".

I see a lot of people who dive into being vegan & buy everything processed...boca burgers, soy ice cream, fake mac & cheese, etc. I don't really think that's any healthier than eating the regular stuff lol. But if you eat whole foods, then that's a different story.

 

[J.Wilkins]

Vegan products are a subset of vegan food. Vegan food is just no dairy/meat/honey/etc. So all veggies, greens, fruits, nuts, and so on are all technically "vegan".

I see a lot of people who dive into being vegan & buy everything processed...boca burgers, soy ice cream, fake mac & cheese, etc. I don't really think that's any healthier than eating the regular stuff lol. But if you eat whole foods, then that's a different story.

Vegan products are the only thing that is vegan, the rest is just normal food that everyone eats.

Vegan diets are not any healthier period. Very low calorie diets are though. It's less about what you eat and more about how much you eat.

 

[J.Wilkins]

What are you talking about?

An apple has about 10 grams of sugar, and the bowl of blueberries I had earlier had 12 grams. Divide by 100 and you would have a hard time measuring it.

Those are trivial amounts of sugar. Where is your sugar phobia coming from?

There is big difference from getting some sugar in fruit buffered by fiber, and soft drinks where you get instant absorption from drinking it liquid form. Or getting 10X as much in cookies and donuts.

Fruits also bring antioxidant, neuro-protective agents, anti-cancer factors.

Fruit is not a problem. Fruit is not refined. Fruit is a plant, full of unique nutrients, and fiber, that slows the release of the already trivial sugar.

It looks like you have a unnatural fear of fruit. Even the Paleo eaters are ok with Fruit:

https://ultimatepaleoguide.com/fruit-paleo/

Those would be trivial until you realize that your entire diet is fructose, the worst kind of carbohydrate there is and again, no one needs any carbohydrates.

The sugar isn't "buffered by fibre" either, it's readily available, it's not something that exists within the fibre, it exists as a monosaccharide apart from the fibre.

Antioxidants are not going to protect you against cancer nor are they neuro-protective. Not a single study in living humans have shown that they do, not even one. High amounts of antioxidants DO help speed ageing up though, causing muscle and tissue dystrophy.

You know what HAS been shown to work though? Very low calorie diets (800 Kcal a day).

Paleo... *sigh* Trendy and bullshit.

 

[PeterScott]

Those would be trivial until you realize that your entire diet is fructose, the worst kind of carbohydrate there is and again, no one needs any carbohydrates.

Who said you should eat ONLY fruit?

Antioxidants are not going to protect you against cancer nor are they neuro-protective. Not a single study in living humans have shown that they do, not even one.

Berries are very promising on both fronts:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4192974/
Neuroprotective effects of berry fruits on neurodegenerative diseases
"Recent clinical research has demonstrated that berry fruits can prevent age-related neurodegenerative diseases and improve motor and cognitive functions. The berry fruits are also capable of modulating signaling pathways involved in inflammation, cell survival, neurotransmission and enhancing neuroplasticity. The neuroprotective effects of berry fruits on neurodegenerative diseases are related to phytochemicals such as anthocyanin, caffeic acid, catechin, quercetin, kaempferol and tannin. In this review, we made an attempt to clearly describe the beneficial effects of various types of berries as promising neuroprotective agents."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23387969
Evidence for anti-cancer properties of blueberries: a mini-review
"Blueberries are amongst the most commonly consumed berries in the United States. Berries in general are rich in phenolic compounds, which are known for their high antioxidant capacity. Specifically, evidence from in vitro, in vivo and a few clinical studies suggest that blueberries and their active constituents show promise as effective anti-cancer agents, both in the form of functional foods and as nutritional supplements. Some of the mechanisms by which blueberries have been shown to prevent carcinogenesis include inhibition of the production of pro-inflammatory molecules, oxidative stress and products of oxidative stress such as DNA damage, inhibition of cancer cell proliferation and increased apoptosis. This review will focus on the preclinical and clinical evidence that supports blueberries as an anti-cancer fruit, as well as expressing the need for more preclinical studies and the conduction of clinical studies with respect to the cancer preventive ability of blueberries."

Paleo... *sigh* Trendy and bullshit.

Says someone who jumped on the Keto bandwagon.

Enjoy your lard diet.

 

[Tweak155]

I get the impression Wilkins has no idea what vegan is.

 

[Ventanni]

I'm scratching my head on his posts too. A true vegan diet is whole plant foods: Fruits, vegetables, legumes, grains. Nothing refined whatsoever, so I'm not sure which foods he's talking about when you pick 'em straight from the ground.

If he's talking about things like vegan cheese, or vegan mac'n'cheese, or boca burgers and stuff like that, then yeah that's not real vegan even though they put that label on it.

 

[Tweak155]

I'm scratching my head on his posts too. A true vegan diet is whole plant foods: Fruits, vegetables, legumes, grains. Nothing refined whatsoever, so I'm not sure which foods he's talking about when you pick 'em straight from the ground.

If he's talking about things like vegan cheese, or vegan mac'n'cheese, or boca burgers and stuff like that, then yeah that's not real vegan even though they put that label on it.

Technically, as long as the food contains no animal product, it is considered vegan. But I think what you'll find is that, for the most part, those that choose to pursue a vegan diet are also very heavily health conscious as well. So while they may have vegan cheese for example, it's likely not the majority of their diet, but rather what you're pointing to - whole foods or minimally processed.

Don't get me wrong, some are in it JUST to save the animals and not themselves, but from my experience that is the minority case, not the majority as is being portrayed.

 

[PeterScott]

I'm scratching my head on his posts too. A true vegan diet is whole plant foods: Fruits, vegetables, legumes, grains. Nothing refined whatsoever, so I'm not sure which foods he's talking about when you pick 'em straight from the ground.

If he's talking about things like vegan cheese, or vegan mac'n'cheese, or boca burgers and stuff like that, then yeah that's not real vegan even though they put that label on it.

Vegan does not imply only whole natural foods. Vegan just means no animal products. I have one fairly strict Vegan close friend (he won't eat anything with a trace of animal product), and he eats Vegan burgers and things like that.

Going the extra distance to whole foods only is a much harder road to walk. I never met anyone who does that.

But JW is against even whole Vegan Food. He's against fruit. Not Fruit juice, but whole fruit!

He is apparently on one of those obsessive no carb, Keto diets...

I am not a Vegan. I am omnivore that is trying to increase my Fruit/Veggie/Nut intake while reducing my Meat/Processed food intake for long term health.

 

[Crono]

Most people don't even realize how much they like "vegan" food. Probably 95% of the sides of most meals are plant-based.

btw, do you read Serious Eats? They just had an article on grilled cabbage: (substitute out vegan alternatives for the sauce for your diet, of course)

http://www.seriouseats.com/2014/09/food-lab-turbo-why-you-should-be-grilling-your-cabbage.html

On another tangent, have you heard of aquafaba before? If not, that's a separate topic, but check out this great vegan butter recipe:

http://plantepusherne.dk/vegan-aquafaba-butter/

Bookmarked, going to try making some this weekend.

 

[J.Wilkins]

Who said you should eat ONLY fruit?



Berries are very promising on both fronts:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4192974/
Neuroprotective effects of berry fruits on neurodegenerative diseases
"Recent clinical research has demonstrated that berry fruits can prevent age-related neurodegenerative diseases and improve motor and cognitive functions. The berry fruits are also capable of modulating signaling pathways involved in inflammation, cell survival, neurotransmission and enhancing neuroplasticity. The neuroprotective effects of berry fruits on neurodegenerative diseases are related to phytochemicals such as anthocyanin, caffeic acid, catechin, quercetin, kaempferol and tannin. In this review, we made an attempt to clearly describe the beneficial effects of various types of berries as promising neuroprotective agents."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23387969
Evidence for anti-cancer properties of blueberries: a mini-review
"Blueberries are amongst the most commonly consumed berries in the United States. Berries in general are rich in phenolic compounds, which are known for their high antioxidant capacity. Specifically, evidence from in vitro, in vivo and a few clinical studies suggest that blueberries and their active constituents show promise as effective anti-cancer agents, both in the form of functional foods and as nutritional supplements. Some of the mechanisms by which blueberries have been shown to prevent carcinogenesis include inhibition of the production of pro-inflammatory molecules, oxidative stress and products of oxidative stress such as DNA damage, inhibition of cancer cell proliferation and increased apoptosis. This review will focus on the preclinical and clinical evidence that supports blueberries as an anti-cancer fruit, as well as expressing the need for more preclinical studies and the conduction of clinical studies with respect to the cancer preventive ability of blueberries."



Says someone who jumped on the Keto bandwagon.

Enjoy your lard diet.

And oink, Neither study is complete, they test two aspects but not the actual in vitro results which are nada and none.

Beseides, they are non-specific anti-inflammatory substances that could be replaced by ibumetin for a greater effect and you know WHY this isn't recommended? It's not because it doesn't work because it DOES work and so does high dosages of any antioxidant formula, it's because it has horrid results.

You see, your body uses inflammation as a response to oxidative stress, this is the natural occurence and once you mess with it you'll get things like low bone density, muscle fatigue, heart palpitation syndrome, neuro degeneration in the spinal cord and the reason for that is that we need inflammation to stay fairly consistent to break down and regrow nerve endings, muscles and bones.

The entire reason why working out makes your muscles stronger and bigger is because of inflammation, pro inflammatory substances like arachidonic acid work extremely well because this is true and are actually used to regrow nerve endings and muscle because it works.

Berries are not bad for you at all, don't get me wrong, most of them are awesome sources of nutrients but don't eat more than you can go pick yourself (like 20 grams of them) and not for longer than fall lasts which is when these berries grow in nature.

Enjoy your feminine, muscle fatigue lifestyle but don't wink at the wrong bull, son.

 

[J.Wilkins]

I get the impression Wilkins has no idea what vegan is.

Vegetarian food sources only, did i get that wrong?